BondJovi

16 minutes ago, jcidaho said:

 

He also let go Marriott in the preceding summer. We can debate the qualities of Marriott all day, but to let him go, and go into the season with NO striker, was astonishing.

Ermm. Marriott started the first game of that season. And scored the second game.

1 hour ago, Curtains said:

I think the last three transfer windows have been difficult for Derby. 

 

I would argue that this was the first transfer window since Lampard where the manager actually had some freedom. Certainly good enough for this league.

35 minutes ago, IlsonDerby said:

I’m sure most people would agree I’m not Warnes biggest fan on here but isn’t there a case that Kellyman is just better than brown? That’s why he’s getting more opportunities? 
 

I mean there’s a reason we still got decent money for him aged 15/16 isn’t there and yet no one tried to poach Brown from us at the same age? 

There is that. But we are league one team. We played against a league two team who rested half the regular team, in a competition that features u21 teams of which Brown has played against!

If he isn't even trusted in that situation, when can he possibly be?

To me it sends out all the wrong messages. You need to believe that if you join this academy there will be opportunities in the first team. 

8 hours ago, vonwright said:

Yep. Agree. I though Cocu would be brilliant, and he just wasn't. Maybe his brand of football wasn't suited to the Championship. Maybe it isn't suited to any team that isn't Barcelona, or the equivalent of Barcelona in other leagues (he's not exactly tearing up trees with Vitesse).

Rooney achieved much more with far fewer resources, surrounded by utter chaos and with a huge points deduction hanging over the club. Yet some people still think Cocu was a better manager.

There's more to management than a nice suit and an urbane manner. 

Also, I'm not sure about all this 'He was undermined by having to play Rooney'. Rooney wasn't great but he wasn't exactly terrible. When played in midfield he had some good games alongside Bird, and was key to Bird's development. I'm not sure he deserved to start every game on merit but Cocu's problems didn't begin and end with Rooney. He was here a long time. It just didn't work.

I don't think we were that bad at the start of 20/21 and unlucky not to have 3-5 more points. I was surprised when I looked back at the match stats to see how close those matches were. We haved played far worse football matches under Rooney and Warne since then.

For most of those first 9 games, we didn't have the key players in the so called Rooney revival. No Cazim Richards, Lawrence, Waghorn, Bielik. Which would explain why we struggled with goals! It also helped not having Rooney on the pitch later.

3 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

Spot on I reckon mate. Afterall I think that part of the deal to get him here would have been that he could be involved in training as he was at the end of his playing career. I can't think that he really thought Cocu would leave and Mel would ask him to take over. If anything the blame is at Mel's door. Remember when Rooney couldn't get Mel on the phone, but Mel answered the doctors number! That's Mel's behaviour, and I think Mel ousting Cocu when he realised that Rooney would be inclined to take the opportunity presented, was more evidence of that.

There were those reports in press only a few games into the season about Rooney lining up his coaching staff, for a job that wasn't even available! No denials there.

I don't for one moment believe Rooney signed on with the intention of becoming manager. I think he genuinely saw it as an opportunity to learn from a great coach. I then think  he realised his playing days were numbered (quicker than expected) and that behind the scenes it wasn't what was sold to him (or Cocu for that matter). His performances after lockdown were dreadful, he had completely let himself go, it showed a huge lack of respect on all parts. When things weren't going well, I believe he used it to his advantage (or was advised to) to position himself as the man to save the day. His big things will be different speech, 15-20 games later, it was as bad, if not worse than before!

Rooney to me remains a conflicting character. On one hand, I thought he was magnificent as a figure head (as manager...no) when the club were in crisis. On the other, I can't really forgive a player who undermimes his manager, a player who let himself go to the point of being useless when we needed him most. A manager who showed appaling man management of Whittaker and to some degree Sibley. Add to that, despite being the man fighting to stop the final nail going in the coffin, he very nearly puts it in himself with the Kirchner deal. 

A well written character in a modern story, his moral compass remains ambiguous. 

48 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

For a bit of context, Wolves U21s beat Notts County 2-1. Our U21s lost 3-2 to Wolves U21s in the league.

Yet, we are unable to put a bit of faith in a few of our academy players in amongst our first team squad to hold on to a 2 goal lead with 20 mins to play? Well, I suppose they could make a big error leading directly to a goal I suppose...

Our midfield three had nothing left in the tank for those final 5 minutes. Any suggestion that a talented youngster couldn't come on for those 5 minutes to provide fresh energy as it would be too much of a risk is ridiculous in my opinion.

It all comes down to trust. Why wait until the game is won before giving them a go? Isn't it better to see what they can do when there is still something to play for? 

What did we achieve or learn by flogging Collins for 90 mins? I know some will say once it went 2-1 you wouldn't risk it but I disagree. Especially given the nature of this competition. I hope the next match in this competition Warne is willing to be brave and show that trust.

37 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

FYI, Warne is now the 10th longest serving manager in the league.

The question on why we missed out on our preferred targets should therefore be asked. Perhaps they preferred the clear style of football which would be implemented at the likes of Oxford, Wigan, etc?

Considering we managed to convince players to join us when we were facing an incredibly uncertain future and almost certain relegation, and players of a reasonable quality, you do wonder why we had difficulties now when the club is as stable as it has been for 5 years... 

Warne is the first manager who can have no excuses for his transfer dealings since Lampard. 

2 hours ago, Jimbo Ram said:

Agree with most of that but I would be surprised if Warne was sacked this season 🤔

I would be, but I think there is more pressure on Warne than we believe.

Appointed in part, or mainly, due to his record of promotions from this league. The fan base have been told the budget is good enough to get the team promoted. What should expectations be based on that?

So, we have a manager who has the reputation of being a promotion specialist in this league, with a budget that will enable him to do the job. In his own words he failed last season.  If Warne doesn't believe his squad is stronger than last season, then he has cocked up his transfer window. I also feel his interviews have changed of late, more short and sarcastic, I thought he was a great listen when he first joined.

I don't really believe he has any excuses for missing out this season. I think we might be ok, more based on the stength of individuals rather than the tactical/coaching skills of the manager. I hope we start to see better performances, it would give the belief that the right thing is to stick long term.  Christmas is the first point at which we can get a real sense of where things are heading. 

4 minutes ago, sage said:

So he takes no responsibility for his non-selection?

Not at all what I am saying. But you can't honestly say he has been given a fair run in the team. If the manager doesn't trust him then stick someone else on the bench. You could look at it your way and say if all the managers are doing this then it must be down to Sibley. However, Rooney doesn't exactly have a glowing record with his handling of young players and Warne doesn't seem to show much either.

2 hours ago, sage said:

I am stating what I think Warne thinks.

His performance at Carlisle won't have helped his cause 

 

It always comes back to, why is Sibley only allowed one poor performance before dropped, where other players can be below par for months before being dropped? Rooney was the same with him. But I have always felt he will never be a consistent 7/10 player, I think some weeks you get a 5, others you may get a 9. He has the ability we are so lacking, that ability to make something happen, a goal out of nothing.  If the manager won't bring him on against bottom of the league, what does it tell Sibley? How can he possibly improve if he never gets a run of games?

What Sibley needs right now is game time and I would imagine his best option for his career would be to leave. I think he has been failed by recent managers.  A total waste. 

34 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

The club has spent the last 10 years heavily investing in developing technical players. When Clowes took over, there was an entire review on our academy.

The outcome of that probably highlighted us not developing rounded players (players who are more adaptable and suit various play styles). I can therefore understand a change in our development programme.

However, Warne has done nothing to convince me that he will ever give our academy players a serious runout in the first team. From not giving game tiem to young first team players, not taking a serious interest in how the U18s/U21s are doing (didn't even know the score from a couple hours earlier), hoping not to be quizzed on names, and the number of debuts given to academy players.

I know Cocu has his haters, but I loved his willingness to give the younger players a go. On occaision he chose a youngster to bring on over an experienced player, and not always in easy situations. I cannot see Warne doing that. Players in the U18s/ U21s need to see that there is a path.  I don't understand the reluctance to use something which could save us a lot of cash and potentially generate a lot. I haven't understood that for a lot of Derby managers. I am not entirely convinced Warne takes that side of the club seriously. Bless him.

10 minutes ago, Kokosnuss said:

 

See, now I'm not sure if you knew my post was said with a large dose of irony or not, and whether you're just carrying that on or you thought I was being serious?

Oh I knew, I was carrying the torch.

3 minutes ago, Kokosnuss said:

The way we want to play football is just far too tactically advanced for these players to grasp before they've played 15-20 games together, obviously.

Let us not forget that for the first time since Lampard, a manager has had a full preseason with no behind the scenes excuses, no covid cutting it all short. Seeing as we didn't make the play offs we had more prep time than some of the other teams! But yes, clearly a seriously complicated tactical set up...

To answer the original question.

No. Expectation should be top 2. In our owners words our budget is good enough to get us out of this league. We have appointed a promotion expert from this league, who himself saw last season as a failure. If the budget was tighter than believed, we should have been wise and chosen a formation that requires the least investment from what we have. But nevermind.  We are the big fish in this pond.

24 minutes ago, Rev said:

It must be awful have to decide between 4,5 and 6 goal wins on the prediction thread.

Whereas we might have to start predicting successful passes in a row? Those numbers above look good...

Rooney when he first came in as a player was a good addition but I think we were on our way up as a team anyway. He let himself go during lockdown and came back in such bad shape it was very poor. We would have been far better to have got rid once that season finished. But we didn't and we couldn't. His presence ultimately undermined the manager. I have no respect or love for his time here as player.

As a manager I also don't think he was very good at all. However, as a figurehead when we were really in the crap he was excellent and he showed everything he should have shown as a player. He held it together. Of course all of that is nearly undone by him happily riding and backing the Kirchner horse. I dread to think of that outcome.

1 hour ago, The Key Club King said:

Not sure why there is all this love for Cocu. Nice bloke certainly, but we were woeful that year, should have been relegated, and the squad was far better and built under far fewer restrictions than the following year. Other than 2007/08 it was the worst I have seen Derby in 40 years of following them. 

Look at the starting line up in that season for our opening game, our striking options were worse then than they are now!

2 minutes ago, enachops said:

We played out from the back the year before under Lampard with similar players. The booze up ruined it and Keogh injuring himself meant we had to change everything. I agree with others, he was the most unlucky manager in my time watching us (35 years). A decent man who with a bit of luck would’ve done well. 

Yeap. The Forest disallowed winner would have been given in most cases. Rooney of all people fluffed his big chance against Watford. Very dodgy offside against Preston? Sibley injured after game 3 who was a key player. Marriott as the only striker and he was fecked. And let's not forget all the rumours about Rooney sounding out his own coaching team! 

May be in the minority but Lampard did more damage to this club than Cocu ever did by some way. And I don't believe Lampard should on a worse Derby manager list.

1 hour ago, Andicis said:

I think Cocu has some valid justifications for his performance such as Joinersgate which definitely impacted our season. Think this one is a little harsh....

55 minutes ago, Kokosnuss said:

...and Covid, and Bielik's injury, and Martin deciding to sod off to Bristol, and the failure to sign Dursun, and nearly all the attacking players stating the season in the physio room rather than on the pitch, and CKR needing to get match fitness up to speed (he looked terrible his first few appearances)

Got us to 64 points in his first season. Very good when you consider everything that happened. 10 points less than Lampard, who had a better squad and Tomori, Mount and Wilson... Yes we had Rooney come in but he was finished after lockdown.

I have said before. But no Derby manager should be judged on what happened during the 20/21 season. 

5 hours ago, ziggyram59 said:

Loved Glen Campbell he made some fantastic songs especially with Jimmy Webb his composer/friend. 

Jimmy Webb's El Mirage is a fantastic album.

1 hour ago, Bris Vegas said:

To say he was an early developer is an understatement.

I was in his school year so played football with and against him regularly. He was a monster at 14. So much quicker, stronger and athletic compared to your average 14 year old. He ran rings around us and other kids of decent quality. It’s why he was playing England U17 despite still being in year 9/10. By year 11 he was barely in school anymore as at 15/16 he would have been training at Forest full time before making his debut at 17.

Long story short. It’s amazing how once he turned pro, he no longer stood out at a physical specimen and in contrast looked quite slow. He is amazingly only 5ft 9inch (he towered over everybody in my school year), and slight.

It has made me realize just how athletic top pros are.

Man City’s Nathan Ake looks small. But even he is two inches taller than McGugan (and myself being 5ft 9inch too).

Crazy.

Sounds similair to Liam Delap.

1 hour ago, Ghost of Clough said:

The most obvious example was Wycombe when Rooney first became manager

Don't remind me. You'd be embarrassed to play in that if you played in the MRA!

In terms of what was available on the bench, if you take out Sibleys long run at lb, when played further forward he by far has the best goals per min ratio. 

And when dominating so much, Dobbins pace wouldn't really be as useful. 

If the ball fell to one of our players in  the box, you'd want it to be McGoldrick, then Hourihane and Sibley. Would perhaps make sense to have all 3 on. But we went for more creators...

Or maybe this is where a young academy striker could have been the hero? Well, if we hadn't loaned everyone out!

I don't think Warne likes to take a risk on his subs.

Just now, DavesaRam said:

I suspect we’ll never find out with young (ish) Louie. I somehow don’t think he will ever get a good run in his best position.

Which I think will be one of the biggest wastes of talent this club has seen.

He hasn't had a run in that position since he got injured under Cocu 3/4 games into that season.

On 2 occasions, when he finally has started in his favoured role he has played really well, started the next match and then made the scapegoat at half time when others have played worse! Happened under Rooney and happened under Warne. Yet, more experienced players are given many more chances despite poor performances.

Garbage management. If he had a long run of matches and failed to deliver I could understand, but we haven't seen him complete 2 matches in a row in his favourite position since Cocu. How can he ever progress when that happens?

I suppose my somewhat greater concern is that we have in our squad 3 young players who should be able to stroll this league. Yet at no point has our manager seemingly wanted to find a way to get Knight, Bird and Sibley in the same midfield, to get the best out of them. Seem to be moving further from playing in a way that even gets the best of one of them!

An also worrying notion that Sibley and Knight can't be in the same midfield...

2 hours ago, Gerry Daly said:

We will have the answer to the enigma in the close season I think. If Sibley is still here or if he isn't and also who else comes and goes  

I begin to think it best for his career of he moves on. He always seems to be the scapegoat for a poor team performance. Yet he remains one of the very few players who can score out of nothing. I refuse to believe this absoute tripe that you can't play Knight and Sibley in the same team. 

Sibley hasn't had a regular run of games in his natural position since his first season under Cocu. He has been mismanaged since. I actually think Warne playing him lb was a good call but he needed to be allowed to build on that.