Joey Barton sacked

[TigerTedd]

2 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

My kids don't need to be flooded with the opposite sex or ethnic minorities, they see them every day at school and don't look at them any differently to how they look at people of the same race or gender.

The only people keeping race/sex as an issue are the ones who claim to be wanting to eradicate racism/sexism.

Putting people into jobs that they are not really qualified to do or are not competent at, just because of their sex/race, will not promote a positive image, it will lead to people pointing out their sex and race and is completely self defeating.

Of course we see people in the street, at work, at school of different minorities all the time these days. It’s about representing them in attainable positions.

Like it or not, your kids were born with an advantage over their minority class mates. And the fact that Ian Wright is a pundit with two women, doesn’t reduce that advantage. But it does let little black boys and girls see that there is hope for them, they can attain and have the same ambitions as anyone else.

As I said, I like to think I don’t see colour, I don’t care either way, and I’m positive my kids certainly don’t. And isn’t that great. But it’s like taking anti biotics even after you start feeling better. Or advertising for Pepsi (we all know what Pepsi is now, why do they spend so much on marketing). If this awareness raising just suddenly stopped then we’d quite quickly be back to square one. It’ll take a generation of effort before it can start to dial back.

and joey’s comments just help to set it back. 2 steps forward, 1 step back. So guess what, as long as there are people like joey Barton, and people liking and perpetuating his messages, the problem isn’t fixed, and there will be initiatives against it. And if one thing doesn’t work, they’ll try another.

Over representation of minorities might not be the answer. But they’ll keep trying things. And I’ll tell you what, things like doctor who, super girl, more representation of women in football etc. it has helped to normalise it in my head, and it has helped my kids to normalise it. So I genuinely think it does help.

If you watch super girl, you’d think that every second person in metropolis is somewhere in the rainbow spectrum. It’s clearly over represented. But before long, it’s not a thing anymore, they’re just characters. And that’s fine.

it was a bit weird when I heard my first female commentator. But now it genuinely doesn’t even register with me. They all know more than me, so it’s all good insight.

[AndyinLiverpool]

1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said:

My kids don't need to be flooded with the opposite sex or ethnic minorities, they see them every day at school and don't look at them any differently to how they look at people of the same race or gender.

The only people keeping race/sex as an issue are the ones who claim to be wanting to eradicate racism/sexism.

Putting people into jobs that they are not really qualified to do or are not competent at, just because of their sex/race, will not promote a positive image, it will lead to people pointing out their sex and race and is completely self defeating.

Who says they are incompetent? They are no more or less so than those male ex-players on the punditry gravy train. Do you really think TV producers asked each other, 'Who can we get to say something interesting and incisive about football?' and they came up with answers like Alan Shearer and Graeme Souness?

Personally, I'm glad the world is moving on from one where being male and white is enough in itself to give someone a leg up.

[G STAR RAM]

1 hour ago, TigerTedd said:

Of course we see people in the street, at work, at school of different minorities all the time these days. It’s about representing them in attainable positions.

Like it or not, your kids were born with an advantage over their minority class mates. And the fact that Ian Wright is a pundit with two women, doesn’t reduce that advantage. But it does let little black boys and girls see that there is hope for them, they can attain and have the same ambitions as anyone else.

As I said, I like to think I don’t see colour, I don’t care either way, and I’m positive my kids certainly don’t. And isn’t that great. But it’s like taking anti biotics even after you start feeling better. Or advertising for Pepsi (we all know what Pepsi is now, why do they spend so much on marketing). If this awareness raising just suddenly stopped then we’d quite quickly be back to square one. It’ll take a generation of effort before it can start to dial back.

and joey’s comments just help to set it back. 2 steps forward, 1 step back. So guess what, as long as there are people like joey Barton, and people liking and perpetuating his messages, the problem isn’t fixed, and there will be initiatives against it. And if one thing doesn’t work, they’ll try another.

Over representation of minorities might not be the answer. But they’ll keep trying things. And I’ll tell you what, things like doctor who, super girl, more representation of women in football etc. it has helped to normalise it in my head, and it has helped my kids to normalise it. So I genuinely think it does help.

If you watch super girl, you’d think that every second person in metropolis is somewhere in the rainbow spectrum. It’s clearly over represented. But before long, it’s not a thing anymore, they’re just characters. And that’s fine.

it was a bit weird when I heard my first female commentator. But now it genuinely doesn’t even register with me. They all know more than me, so it’s all good insight.

Can you give me one example of an advantage my kids have over their minority classmates?

Of course ITV wanting mainly women or ethnic minorities in their studios affects my white male child, how can you say it doesnt?!?!

And where are the campaigns for representation down coal mines, for refuse collectors, for labourers? Have I missed them? Or do we just want representation in well paid jobs?

[G STAR RAM]

59 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

Who says they are incompetent? They are no more or less so than those male ex-players on the punditry gravy train. Do you really think TV producers asked each other, 'Who can we get to say something interesting and incisive about football?' and they came up with answers like Alan Shearer and Graeme Souness?

Personally, I'm glad the world is moving on from one where being male and white is enough in itself to give someone a leg up.

The competence is obviously down to personal opinion.

And yes, at the time, Graeme Souness was probably a good choice. Past his sell by date now Id say but we want to be inclusive to old people as well I'm assuming?

[TigerTedd]

19 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Can you give me one example of an advantage my kids have over their minority classmates?

Of course ITV wanting mainly women or ethnic minorities in their studios affects my white male child, how can you say it doesnt?!?!

And where are the campaigns for representation down coal mines, for refuse collectors, for labourers? Have I missed them? Or do we just want representation in well paid jobs?

It’s weird, it’s like you’re arguing against me, but proving my point at the same time.

a white kid, or a white male kid from a happy family, is statistically more likely to find it easier to find well paid jobs and have a happy successful life.

have you never seen that exercise where they give kids a head start on a race if they meet certain criteria and there’s some poor kids still sat on the start line when some others get a 50m head start.

thats the advantage your kids have. I don’t know you or your kids, maybe there are other reasons that they are disadvantaged, but even if a white kid has dyslexia, for example, they’ll still find life easier than a black kid with dyslexia. There are just generally a lot less barriers in the way for white kids. Maybe it’s not about having an advantage, it’s about not having hurdles to jump over. So a better analogy is two people running 100m, but one has hurdles on his track. It’s no fault of the other person, but it’s clearly not fair.

yes, if your white male kid goes for a job as a football pundit, and they’re up against a black female candidate, and they’re equal in every way, but the company needs to tick a box, your kid might miss out. That’s just a fact of redressing the balance. As I explained with the scales, there has to be some disproportionate representation to enable minorities to catch up. As with many things, past generations have screwed it up for our kids. It’s not a perfect situation. But if you were a black family, or if one of your kids comes out as transgender in the future, wouldn’t you fight tooth and nail to allow them to have the same opportunities as anyone else?

There doesn’t need to be campaigns for representation down coal mines, the point is to enable kids to aspire to anything they want to be. Imagine if there was a campaign that said ‘if you work really hard, maybe you can aspire to be a dust man’ (no offence to dust men). Lower paid jobs and manual labour are already open to all, ahead of their time really. Probably over represented by minorities. That’s specifically the imbalance that needs to be redressed. 

[G STAR RAM]

9 minutes ago, TigerTedd said:

It’s weird, it’s like you’re arguing against me, but proving my point at the same time.

a white kid, or a white male kid from a happy family, is statistically more likely to find it easier to find well paid jobs and have a happy successful life.

have you never seen that exercise where they give kids a head start on a race if they meet certain criteria and there’s some poor kids still sat on the start line when some others get a 50m head start.

thats the advantage your kids have. I don’t know you or your kids, maybe there are other reasons that they are disadvantaged, but even if a white kid has dyslexia, for example, they’ll still find life easier than a black kid with dyslexia. There are just generally a lot less barriers in the way for white kids. Maybe it’s not about having an advantage, it’s about not having hurdles to jump over. So a better analogy is two people running 100m, but one has hurdles on his track. It’s no fault of the other person, but it’s clearly not fair.

yes, if your white male kid goes for a job as a football pundit, and they’re up against a black female candidate, and they’re equal in every way, but the company needs to tick a box, your kid might miss out. That’s just a fact of redressing the balance. As I explained with the scales, there has to be some disproportionate representation to enable minorities to catch up. As with many things, past generations have screwed it up for our kids. It’s not a perfect situation. But if you were a black family, or if one of your kids comes out as transgender in the future, wouldn’t you fight tooth and nail to allow them to have the same opportunities as anyone else?

There doesn’t need to be campaigns for representation down coal mines, the point is to enable kids to aspire to anything they want to be. Imagine if there was a campaign that said ‘if you work really hard, maybe you can aspire to be a dust man’ (no offence to dust men). Lower paid jobs and manual labour are already open to all, ahead of their time really. Probably over represented by minorities. That’s specifically the imbalance that needs to be redressed. 

Historically.

Currently my children have absolutely zero privilege over their peers based on sex or gender.

If anything their friends from ethnic minorities are probably growing up in better conditions and are more likely to end up with better jobs.

If people stopped pretending we are still living in the 1960s, 70s and 80s then there would be no need to try and push this agenda onto kids....

I think the over representation of ethnic minorities in the Premier League and the prominence the female game has now, is enough for kids to enable them to aspire to be anything they want to be.

[TigerTedd]

40 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Historically.

Currently my children have absolutely zero privilege over their peers based on sex or gender.

If anything their friends from ethnic minorities are probably growing up in better conditions and are more likely to end up with better jobs.

If people stopped pretending we are still living in the 1960s, 70s and 80s then there would be no need to try and push this agenda onto kids....

I think the over representation of ethnic minorities in the Premier League and the prominence the female game has now, is enough for kids to enable them to aspire to be anything they want to be.

So it’s working. Yet Joey Barton still exists. 

[G STAR RAM]

2 minutes ago, TigerTedd said:

So it’s working. Yet Joey Barton still exists. 

Id say its already worked, look at well paid jobs and prominent positions. 

Continuing to push the agenda too far, will be self defeating, and draw the sort of reactions that we are seeing from Barton, in my opinion.

You only need to look at social media reactions to see that he is saying what a lot of other people are thinking. 

 

[TigerTedd]

1 minute ago, G STAR RAM said:

Id say its already worked, look at well paid jobs and prominent positions. 

Continuing to push the agenda too far, will be self defeating, and draw the sort of reactions that we are seeing from Barton, in my opinion.

You only need to look at social media reactions to see that he is saying what a lot of other people are thinking. 

 

That is a problem. Even if things were completely in proportion, there would be a lot of old white men, no longer the kings of the castle. As someone gains power and agency, someone else always loses it, and those people aren’t happy.

Slave owners in the American south weren’t too happy after the civil war. I’d say ‘but they got over it,’ but they didn’t really. It’s never fixed. Like I said, antibiotics, it might seem fixed, but follow doctors orders, complete the course of antibiotics, or the illness comes back with a vengeance.

id say the full course for this issue is like 20 years of people like yourself saying it’s already better. When discussions like this don’t even exist. Then we can probably stop taking the antibiotics. 

[DarkFruitsRam7]

[Ram-Alf]

6 minutes ago, TigerTedd said:

Slave owners in the American south weren’t too happy after the civil war. I’d say ‘but they got over it,’ but they didn’t really. 

Like lots of things in life things change then it becomes the norm, There's a radical way of fixing this...accept it or give it a swerve.

Jodie Turner Smith played Anne Boleyn on channel 5 a year or so ago, Doctor Who has a transgender actor in it, The media plays a pivotal role in our lives...good and bad...imo.

I wonder how things would sit if the next England Women's football match there were only male pundits...social media would implode 😁

As for the American slave owners after the Civil War...they eventually died ☺️, And Arlington National Cemetery in the USA was built on the front garden of General Robert E Lees estate where coloured soldiers were also buried who died fighting for the North 👍  

[TigerTedd]

13 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

That’s some dodgy as f*** lawyering. Imagine being a lawyer claiming a mistrial because the beaten up lady won’t testify. I bet they sleep soundly on a pile of money. 

[TigerTedd]

7 minutes ago, Ram-Alf said:

Like lots of things in life things change then it becomes the norm, There's a radical way of fixing this...accept it or give it a swerve.

Jodie Turner Smith played Anne Boleyn on channel 5 a year or so ago, Doctor Who has a transgender actor in it, The media plays a pivotal role in our lives...good and bad...imo.

I wonder how things would sit if the next England Women's football match there were only male pundits...social media would implode 😁

As for the American slave owners after the Civil War...they eventually died ☺️, And Arlington National Cemetery in the USA was built on the front garden of General Robert E Lees estate where coloured soldiers were also buried who died fighting for the North 👍  

But then you still had Jim Crow, and the tulsa massacre. And Rosa Parks and segregation. Some people will never accept a change to status quo, when the status quo benefitted them. 

[G STAR RAM]

15 minutes ago, TigerTedd said:

That’s some dodgy as f*** lawyering. Imagine being a lawyer claiming a mistrial because the beaten up lady won’t testify. I bet they sleep soundly on a pile of money. 

Not sure what I'm missing here but why would the prosecutors not call the 'victim' to give evidence?!

And FWIW, I always have and always think Barton is a scumbag, think what he has said proves that, but don't have any issues with his underlying point which I believe is spot on.

[nottingram]

29 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Not sure what I'm missing here but why would the prosecutors not call the 'victim' to give evidence?!

And FWIW, I always have and always think Barton is a scumbag, think what he has said proves that, but don't have any issues with his underlying point which I believe is spot on.

I think it depends if his underlying point is that incompetent people shouldn’t be pundits, or women shouldn’t be pundits.

Obviously there’s no issue with the first one, but it seems to be more the latter or at least that’s the way he’s gone with it. There’s bad female pundits but some really good ones, same with male. Is it “box ticking” if a female pundit is chosen to be on TV and they turn out to be really good at it? 

[Stive Pesley]

50 minutes ago, nottingram said:

I think it depends if his underlying point is that incompetent people shouldn’t be pundits, or women shouldn’t be pundits.

Obviously there’s no issue with the first one, but it seems to be more the latter or at least that’s the way he’s gone with it. There’s bad female pundits but some really good ones, same with male. Is it “box ticking” if a female pundit is chosen to be on TV and they turn out to be really good at it? 

There are good pundits and bad pundits - anyone bringing the gender of the pundit into the equation when identifying them as a bad pundit is unwittingly telling you exactly what kind of person they are

[G STAR RAM]

1 hour ago, Stive Pesley said:

There are good pundits and bad pundits - anyone bringing the gender of the pundit into the equation when identifying them as a bad pundit is unwittingly telling you exactly what kind of person they are

And what about the people employing these pundits based on their gender rather than merit?

[Anag Ram]

I think Joey wants us to know he prefers men.

[AndyinLiverpool]

15 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

And what about the people employing these pundits based on their gender rather than merit?

It is only your assertion (and Barton's, I suppose) that they are hired on that basis.

[JfR]

2 hours ago, nottingram said:

I think it depends if his underlying point is that incompetent people shouldn’t be pundits, or women shouldn’t be pundits.

Seeing some of his other posts, I don't even thinks it's just that he thinks that women shouldn't be pundits, he seems to think they shouldn't be involved in the men's game at all.