Pro Warne

[duncanjwitham]

7 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

If so, it’s difficult to see how they could  influence what seem to be (to our non expert eyes) the key defects - coaching, tactics, formation and players playing in their best positions, without interfering.

The way you'd normally do that is by having the DoF heavily involved in appointing the manager/head-coach. So you simply don't appoint a manager that doesn't set the team up how you want it to be.  Obviously that's not going to work very well here (at the moment anyway...) because we already have a manager in place, and I can't imagine installing a DoF over his head (who wants something radically different to what Warne wants) is going to go down well.

[May Contain Nuts]

2 hours ago, CongletonRam said:

I understand and respect the opinion of those wanting PW out, but I do not believe they are right.

2 hours ago, CongletonRam said:

The loud minority are in all likelihood made up with a majority of younger fans.

2 hours ago, CongletonRam said:

That barrage can become unpleasant and sometimes rude and occasionally mocking. Nobody needs or deserves that.

 Yeah, great way showing you respect their opinion right there, and you're definitely not mocking anyone by making out that their views are what you expect a 'younger fan' to hold. 🙄🤣

I'll assume this was unintentional and not really how you meant the post to come across. Benefit of the doubt and all that.

1 hour ago, CongletonRam said:

The majority I talk are behind Warne as, aside from the turgid football, they can see the bigger picture and they recognise just what a difficult ob he has when you go through the many extenuating circumstances.

He needs and will be given time. I'll say it again, a few disgruntled fans won't change Clowes mind. He gave Warne a 4-year contract for a reason.

 

It's an odd situation really. Most of the people who are Warne out are that way precisely because they are concerned about the bigger picture, not because of a few bad results but because of everything they see about the way the team is being managed. It's the direct opposite of the short-terminism they're accused of.

The strongest advocates for him going are those looking at the long term prospects of the club (well beyond the next 2-3 years) and considering what the impact of continuing to employ a manager with such limitations in both his his current abilities and his interest in giving young players a proper chance, coupled with a lack of any sign he's going to develop tactically beyond what he currently is showing.

They're typically posters who can write at length (yes sometimes it's boring and repetitive!) about their concerns and back up their view with things that have actually happened while he's been in charge of Derby, whereas many (certainly not all, maybe most) of those who won't consider the idea he should leave seem to deal in of ifs, buts, maybes, diversionary tactics,  and a fair ol' bit of mud-slinging. (Yes both 'sides' can do that - and no doubt someone will (incorrectly) try to claim that's what I'm doing here - but it definitely comes from one direction more than the other)

I suppose you could accuse them of that they're looking too far in front and not realising that first and foremost we need to get out of this league, but that's not exactly looking promising right now, and even if we do make it, the long term concerns won't just go away.

Edited October 23, 2023 by Kokosnuss

[duncanjwitham]

1 minute ago, Kokosnuss said:

I suppose you could accuse them of that they're looking too far in front and not realising that first and foremost we need to get out of this league, but that's not exactly looking promising right now, and even if we do make it, the long term concerns won't just go away.

And some of us are still scarred by the last time we took a "just get out of the league" approach, and ended up in the Premier League still trying to lump it up to Steve Howard...

[Tamworthram]

5 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

The way you'd normally do that is by having the DoF heavily involved in appointing the manager/head-coach. So you simply don't appoint a manager that doesn't set the team up how you want it to be.  Obviously that's not going to work very well here (at the moment anyway...) because we already have a manager in place, and I can't imagine installing a DoF over his head (who wants something radically different to what Warne wants) is going to go down well.

Seems logical although there must be more to their role otherwise they'll have little to most of the time. 

[Bwash_Ram]

The worrying thing for me is that apart from the fact we seem to be getting worse and the players dont seem arsed to put in a shift for him (especially midfield). Its that he doesnt seem to have a clue what the problem is or how to sort it. We are having exactly the same problems that we had in quite a few games last season.

Edited October 23, 2023 by Bwash_Ram

[duncanjwitham]

Just now, Tamworthram said:

Seems logical although there must be more to their role otherwise they'll have little to most of the time. 

Their job is supposed to be overseeing the whole of the footballing side of things - first team, scouting, recruitment, coaching, academy, everything.  To make sure everybody is pulling in the same direction.  So you don't have the academy producing technical midfielders, while the first team is playing kick and rush hoofball, or have the manager inherit a team build for 433 and decide to play wingbacks.

The idea is it lets a chairman/owner (who probably has very little actual on-the-ground football experience) set the overall parameters of how he wants his club to work, but leave the actual nuts and bolts of making it happen to someone who does have that experience.  All while not leaving it in the hands of a manager who (no matter how well they are doing right now), is basically 10 games away from being sacked at any given point.

[Tamworthram]

9 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

Their job is supposed to be overseeing the whole of the footballing side of things - first team, scouting, recruitment, coaching, academy, everything.  To make sure everybody is pulling in the same direction.  So you don't have the academy producing technical midfielders, while the first team is playing kick and rush hoofball, or have the manager inherit a team build for 433 and decide to play wingbacks.

The idea is it lets a chairman/owner (who probably has very little actual on-the-ground football experience) set the overall parameters of how he wants his club to work, but leave the actual nuts and bolts of making it happen to someone who does have that experience.  All while not leaving it in the hands of a manager who (no matter how well they are doing right now), is basically 10 games away from being sacked at any given point.

Sounds like a DoF is what we need then even if PW was replaced (Mac 3?). 

[Gabby'sThighs]

I didn't want Rosenior to go as I thought he should have been given more time to work with his signings, I'm not keen on more instability, and it seems a moot point as - let me be the 10,000th person to point this out - the club can't afford to sack Warne.

BUT it's frustrating as I genuinely think we are not THAT far away from being much better off, at least points-wise. The Bolton game was ruined by the duff red card, Cambridge & Cheltenham would have been wins - and Notts County more convincing - with only marginally better finishing.  Then the results would at least justify the performances. As it is, we're 12 games in and look out of contention already.

As for style, the Blackpool game was another false dawn. The players seemed pumped up and played with bite & swagger, then the next week(s) it's like they've got the handbrake on again, and that can only from the coaches, right? That wasn't a perfect game by any means, but at least it felt like we could outscore any opposition playing that way. The fans would be much happier if they were set up to bloody go for it from the kick-off, and I'm convinced the likes of Cambridge & Cheltenham would have wilted, maybe Shrewsbury too.

We now have technically able players, and some pace, but it's like Warne doesn't know how to use them. The defense is pretty solid, Fornah & Smith can shield, Hourihane can pass, Bird, Sibley, Barkhuizen, Mendez-Laing, Wilson, and Thompson all have the ability to run, pass and dribble. Just let them do that!

Also, drop Collins. Not to scapegoat him entirely, and he works hard, but he's normally standing in the wrong place, always slightly ahead or behind the pass/cross. He's good enough to come off the bench with 20 minutes to go, that's about it, and I'm not sure why Warne is so loyal to him.

[RoyMac5]

26 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

The way you'd normally do that is by having the DoF heavily involved in appointing the manager/head-coach. So you simply don't appoint a manager that doesn't set the team up how you want it to be.  Obviously that's not going to work very well here (at the moment anyway...) because we already have a manager in place, and I can't imagine installing a DoF over his head (who wants something radically different to what Warne wants) is going to go down well.

Where's the 'fingers crossed' emoji?

[DCFC Kicks]

45 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

Are you suggesting a director of football (although I’m never really sure what they do)? If so, it’s difficult to see how they could  influence what seem to be (to our non expert eyes) the key defects - coaching, tactics, formation and players playing in their best positions, without interfering. I reckon owners (DC) rarely have any in depth knowledge of how football is/should be played and CEO’s (SP) know how a club should be run but don’t/shouldn’t get involved in the actual performance side - that is the managers/head coaches actual job.

I honestly don’t know what the answer is. Until recently, I have been in the “keep PW” camp and let’s see if/when things improve. I’m probably just about still in that camp but it’s becoming more a case of blind faith than genuine expectation.

 

I suppose a DOF should have been appointed by Clowes before he appointed Warne. I agree, I'm not sure how one would help with Warne at this point in terms of tactics etc. I think we do need someone to interfere somewhat and hold the manger accountable, at the moment no one can because Clowes and Pearce don't have the footballing knowledge to challenge him.

I know we're not going to be like Brighton, but they have a Technical Director who oversees the coaching, academy, recruitment etc. from a cohesive footballing perspective. At the moment our entire approach to football is just Warne, which doesn't seem right to me.

If we'd had a DOF at the start of the season, they would've had a meeting where Warne would've presumably pitched his idea of changing formation to a 3-5-2. The DOF would then analyse the squad, budget etc. to determine if it would be best to change formation or stick and build on the existing one. Instead Warne had free reign to attempt and change the entire playing style of the squad. He couldn't bring in enough players to do this, and the existing ones weren't adapting, and he eventually abandoned the 3-5-2 and the recruitment was a mess. 

Edited October 23, 2023 by DCFC Kicks

[RoyMac5]

 

[Tamworthram]

2 minutes ago, Gabby'sThighs said:

I didn't want Rosenior to go as I thought he should have been given more time to work with his signings, I'm not keen on more instability, and it seems a moot point as - let me be the 10,000th person to point this out - the club can't afford to sack Warne.

BUT it's frustrating as I genuinely think we are not THAT far away from being much better off, at least points-wise. The Bolton game was ruined by the duff red card, Cambridge & Cheltenham would have been wins - and Notts County more convincing - with only marginally better finishing.  Then the results would at least justify the performances. As it is, we're 12 games in and look out of contention already.

As for style, the Blackpool game was another false dawn. The players seemed pumped up and played with bite & swagger, then the next week(s) it's like they've got the handbrake on again, and that can only from the coaches, right? That wasn't a perfect game by any means, but at least it felt like we could outscore any opposition playing that way. The fans would be much happier if they were set up to bloody go for it from the kick-off, and I'm convinced the likes of Cambridge & Cheltenham would have wilted, maybe Shrewsbury too.

We now have technically able players, and some pace, but it's like Warne doesn't know how to use them. The defense is pretty solid, Fornah & Smith can shield, Hourihane can pass, Bird, Sibley, Barkhuizen, Mendez-Laing, Wilson, and Thompson all have the ability to run, pass and dribble. Just let them do that!

Also, drop Collins. Not to scapegoat him entirely, and he works hard, but he's normally standing in the wrong place, always slightly ahead or behind the pass/cross. He's good enough to come off the bench with 20 minutes to go, that's about it, and I'm not sure why Warne is so loyal to him.

You may well be right but you and the previous 9,999 people don’t actually know that the club can’t afford to sack him.

I agree that results may improve but I reckon it would take a decent winning streak (not draws) to settle the natives and allow us to perhaps overlook the poor quality of football usually on show.

Anything less than a win against Exeter and things will get even more unpleasant. On the other hand, win our next three games (by hook or by crook) and I reckon most will suspend their anger/frustration at least briefly.

[Jram]

1 hour ago, MackworthRamIsGod said:

Well more fool him and more fool those that genuinely believe he will turn it around.

He has lost the players, once you do that there is no going back.

What makes you say that? I sincerely hope the players are smart enough to be a bit more long-term than turning on the manager in this position 

[RoyMac5]

1 minute ago, Jram said:

What makes you say that? I sincerely hope the players are smart enough to be a bit more long-term than turning on the manager in this position 

I'm sure if they have 'given up' on Warne they won't show it. But lots of them won't be here long-term anyway will they?

[NottmRAM]

I have always been against sacking managers too soon. I don't think it's a healthy culture. It becomes too easy for players to think, "if i don't perform, the mananger will go!"

I do like Paul Warne, he's charasmatic and energetic, and I think some of what he's done has been great. The players do work hard. However, this is a good group of players! This team should be tearing up this division and that isn't happening. So, maybe it's time to bring in somebody else who can get the best out of this group of players. Just make sure the next manager doesn't insist we have to go wide to then cross the ball in, when a pass direct through the middle is the better option, and PLEASE CAN WE WIN THE SECOND BALL!

[DCFC Kicks]

54 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Has he and is he doing it? The tweet below about the Academy's latest video suggests Clowes wants 'the Derby Way' to be a 'possession-based, 'gegenpressing' style'. Someone needs to explain that to Warne! 

 

 

This explains why Warne has mentioned numerous times that Klopp is his favourite manager. I can imagine he mentioned it in his initial interview with Clowes as well. Shame no one at the club had the footballing authority to challenge him on why his Rotherham team played nothing like this.

[Caerphilly Ram]

I’ve been reading this and various threads for the last couple of days without posting, as I can’t work out how to properly articulate my position without being labelled one thing or the other and I’ve mentioned before the growing apathy I feel about the conversation, @David’s post sort of captured some of that sentiment. What follows is my stance, my opinion, which may contradict others but is not borne in the pursuit of conflict.

I am, and always have been, pro-patience rather than pro-Warne per se. My reasons for this have been expressed at various points in various threads and without giving everyone my life story it is grounded in the fact that I am one of those that is “happy to still have a club”, that recognises the trauma of the recent past and is content to be following the club regardless of where I believe we should or could be. In hindsight I realise I hated the circus and spotlight of the late Morris years, we went from being a well liked club by most to almost universally disliked and as such I was and still am content to be out of that spotlight for a period of time, how long for I don’t know as I recognise the points made by those opposed to Warne about the damage it could do to the clubs finances and reputation if it’s too long.
I suppose I want a quiet life at home and in sport (which I appreciate is a contradiction in itself). I’m a fence sitter as some of our learned forum members have pointed out in the past. At times naively blinded by a bit of optimism and hope.

I like the game Warne talks - win the ball back, high energy, get it forward, score goals, blow teams away? Yes please! I think the recruitment this year was good and gives us some depth and balance, I was convinced we’d added some quality and experience along with a couple of rough gems. I actually like the idea of having a good culture at the club and good characters (probably a mix of wanting to move away from the Morris circus and attending one too many corporate leadership events). I felt once the injuries subsided and the team gelled we’d see that football Warne keeps talking about….

And here comes the BUT many of you have been waiting for,  I have to concede it’s not working at the moment is it? Something isn’t right, and Clowes is left with a decision, give it more time pending any off the field considerations and conversations we’re not privy too (finances, initial agreed performance targets, subsequent requirements to improve etc) or pull the trigger and recruit someone else.

I don’t yet think Warne will be sacked, and I still want it to work, but in reality as I said on Sat I think it’s probably a case of when not if unless there is some sort of miraculous turnaround in terms of both performance and results. Without that upturn in form and performance I think the discontent gets louder and then it is a test of Clowes mettle as to what path he chooses. 
One last thought, to those saying Warne has singular reign over the football at the club, from what the club has stated publicly that isn’t the case. There is this “football executive” made up of Pearce, Warne, Thomas, Hale, Buxton(?) which discusses through regular meetings the direction of all aspects of the club isn’t there? Which could partly explain Warne’s implied recruitment frustrations, and also may serve to protect some of the longer term prospects many have expressed about the club. I take it to be that Warne isn’t single handedly undoing the whole fabric of the club as the football executive prevents that sole voice/direction.

 

[Chellaston Ram]

1 hour ago, Bwash_Ram said:

The worrying thing for me is that apart from the fact we seem to be getting worse and the players dont seem arsed to put in a shift for him (especially midfield). Its that he doesnt seem to have a clue what the problem is or how to sort it. We are having exactly the same problems that we had in quite a few games last season.

In his interview after the Shrewsbury match. He said something is missing if I remember rightly he said the same thing last season on several occasions,if he still hasn’t worked it out how long are we expected to wait for him to work it out?

[Chris_Martin]

3 hours ago, CongletonRam said:

I think there are tens of thousands of pro-Warne fans, actuallly probably more than anti Warne fans.

Why don't more post on here? Probably for the same reasons as me. For every time they do, they are hit with a barrage from that vocal minority asking to justify their opinion. That barrage can become unpleasant and sometimes rude and occasionally mockingly. Nobody needs or deserves that.

My opinion of PW and DCFC hasn't altered. I understand and respect the opinion of those wanting PW out, but I do not believe they are right.

I have gone into the reasons on another thread but I will say again; I believe that Clowes will be 100% behind Warne irrespective of whether we finish in the top 6 or not. A few disgruntled fans won't make any difference.

The loud minority are in all likelihood made up with a majority of younger fans.

that isn't really a reason why you believe in warne...

[Chris_Martin]

3 hours ago, BathRam72 said:

So why aren't they playing like it? Even if they aren't in their favoured positions they should still be able to play football.  So why, when they are out of position,  do they lose the ability to pass, control the ball, read the game?