Pro Warne

[europia]

4 hours ago, WilkoRam said:

I’m not personally panicking due to the thought of being in league 1 next season. As I’ve said previously I’d be ok with that as long as it was entertaining to watch and, for me, it simply isn’t. If I could see something which made me think “we’re not picking up points but I see what we’re trying to do and how we’re trying to develop” then I’d be backing him.

I also can’t get behind setting a specific time I.E. give him until Xmas. What if we lost the next 4 games, getting tonked every game? Would that change? I understand wanting to give it time and not wanting another change of manager. After everything the club has been through we’re screaming out for stability, but at what point does that stability actually become instability due to going backwards?

Yes and perhaps Mr Clowes initial approach would be leaning more towards stability than early success (promotion this season). Problem could be when stability is undermined by factors such as disgruntled supporters and disenchanted players. 

Edited October 23, 2023 by europia

[sage]

27 minutes ago, TuffLuff said:

Bold- I’m sorry is it? FWIW, McGoldrick was a good footballer but I didn’t find him full of ‘character’ either on the pitch. I’m saying that without him it’s showing how much those goals covered up for the others. I think your just trying to undermine my point here tbh

Italics- that’s my opinion of what I saw in the moment. I don’t think it’s someone standing up for his team, it’s more just getting frustrated and having a strop. I didn’t think it was a good thing for a captain to go do or be seen doing. This is something that has been shared past our fanbase and has helped no one.

Underlined- Im talking about an actual run of games to get him in the side. We’ve quite obviously not seen the best of him yet and we lack leaders on the pitch. For all this ‘nonsense’ talk, can you honestly say you can see leaders/characters in this derby side?

Bold and underlined- Again I think you’re just passing off my point here.

I get im of the minority opinion of the ‘online’ fans and  not expecting everyone to agree but I’m just trying to put a different perspective on all this because frankly I find the Warne out brigade a bit boring and a bit naive. It largely puts me off posting at the minute tbh, I don’t think I’m spot on with everything I post, it’s more about offering debate which I don’t think many are interested in.

I think getting rid of Warne now is the exactly the same problem as what was happening under Morris. Just for example, Warne goes then what? New manager who suddenly has Roseniors players, Warne’s players then a few former youth players. Can’t bring in his own players, probably doesn’t have a budget to reshuffle in January. Again you are left in the Morris era scenario of managers having players they won’t want and can’t shift.

The crucial part of what happens next for Warne will be the impact Ward and Elder make, also I believe the introduction of Bradley and a fit John-Jules may be the answer to his woes but I think we need to see if it’s going to happen. Again, I probably need to lane clear to you that it’s just my opinion. 

At the same time I think there is stuff Warne is doing wrong and everything is ultimately his decisions. When I talk about a lack of characters/leaders that is on him in the end and may be a big factor in his downfall. I think tomorrow is a big night in his tenure as Warne and the players need to show a statement of intent, I’d be more on the Warne out side if we get more of our previous performances even if we scraped through and won 1-0 tbh. I want to see us start having control of the home games.

He bought Eder to play wing back, who is a left back with little pace, who has barely played wing back. 

If we have another window or 2 or Warne and it doesn't improve, the next manager has even more problems.

I don't get the blame everyone except Warne, blaming time, players, Rosenoir players characters etc Everyone should take responsibility except the man who is paid to. It's Narcissism by Proxy.

I do agree we need to start controlling games. 

 

[sage]

9 hours ago, TuffLuff said:

I’m still pro-Warne, as much as I was at the start of the season. I think the players as a collective have a lot to answer for, and I don’t mean it as they aren’t trying or good enough, I just find them characterless and especially the ones Rosenior signed up. I think there’s a group of players there who have obviously not been resigned by other clubs because they were decent squad players but don’t consistently put in enough good dominating performances over a season. Ultimately I would put the likes of Bird and Sibley in a similar boat. Like last season, how much did we rely on McGoldricks goals? Yes, Warne has had a couple of transfer windows but they are players who are also taking up his budget and are difficult to shift. I said a few weeks ago but I’m reminded of the early Clough years in that he has players he needs shift but can’t until contracts run out, I still think that’s the case and if Clowes gets rid of Warne now I doubt we’d see a quick fix (and even if there was I’m not convinced we are in a position to compete in the championship just yet).

Thats not to say Warne hasn’t made mistakes, he had and continues to do so. The biggest was making Hourihane captain and the process he proudly told everyone about. I don’t think it helped the mentality and gave the players too much power in that moment when he’d presumably lined up the captaincy for Sonny Bradley. When I saw the video of Hourihane with the fans, I get the impression he’s I’m essentially saying ‘it’s not our fault’ as players and it didn’t fill me with confidence as a captain that the players fully behind what Warne is trying to do. It’s a lot to take from that video after a loss, but I’m just going on his body language and what he’s saying. I don’t think it’s a good look

I think he needed to bring Bradley into his 11 before now, which is a difficult decision due to the form of the defence but I think he needed his players with a fresh mentality in his 11. I don’t think he’s put enough of his stamp onto the squad just yet. Some of that has been because of the injuries to Ward and Elder as well, but I think the big thing is he’s missing is his leader on the pitch. Do we have anyone who’s really pointing fingers, getting others riled up or wanting to win? I don’t see it at the minute and I haven’t for a good while. 

It’s ultimately the mentality of the players to me, and Warne has to take the brunt of that. Tomorrow is huge for Warne’s future and I’ll be really interested to see what team he puts out, but I hope he is willing to have a bit of a reset rather than this wishy washy approach of having his style of play but having a formation that is trying to keep everyone happy. I think it’s time for Warne to set out a side and formation that he wants to work and bypass the players it doesn’t suit

Also, if Hourihane was out of order and undermining Warne, why was he picked to do the media for tomorrow's game?

[Leeds Ram]

I advocated before that Warne should be given until xmas but now I no longer believe that should be the case. I think his attitude is turning increasingly sour on the club, i.e., not going over to the fans, increasingly moaning in the post-match pressers and his 'bubbly attitude' has been melting away for quite some time. It kind of indicates that he's in a fight for his job, and he doesn't really seem that up for it, tbh. 

I also think the direction of the play, the club, and the players is backwards. He's actively making us worse, not better. I understand there are periods when a team is settling in a new direction where we may see a downturn. But we are 1/4 of the way through the season with his squad, and let's be honest, it's about as bad as we could have imagined. Having concerns over the style isn't the mark of a customer necessarily, as @Leicester Ram argued; it is perhaps the mark of a philosophical inclination about how you would ideally like to see your team play, which is different. Yet, if we were effective at playing an ugly style people would not be booing and calling for his head. The problem is that we're playing ugly football and are ineffective at executing it. 

This drills down to tactical questions. Warne seems completely inflexible with a poor appreciation for what's happening on the pitch. His substitutions oftentimes don't yield results and his analysis doesn't match up with what everyone else is witnessing. He uses phrases such as 'working harder' 'more aggressive' 'more crosses' when we have a team full of ball-playing, technical attackers and midfielders. His inability to adapt to the resources given to him and brought into the club is the mark of a stunted tactical mind who is either unable or unwilling to change. He's frequently misusing players both positionally and putting them into systems which doesn't get the best out of them. 

I also think he seems quite temperamental and seemingly finds it difficult to be challenged. This trait has reared its head in public forums and interviews that he's given, which indicates a lack of confidence and character. I doubt it's a happy dressing room, and I don't believe he's someone who can dig us out of this funk. Indeed, I think he's mistaken in the size of the job. He once said it was no bigger than at Rotherham. Well, at Rotherham, I imagine he cultivated a culture where he knew everyone from the tea lady to the director, creating a single-minded unity without that much outside scrutiny. Here, it's a whole different ball game and I imagine shaping the culture to his desired ways is quite difficult with the size of the institution. 

Ultimately, I believe if Clowes sacked him now, he'd be doing the right thing. Warne has over a prolonged period of time disappointed with results and has had brought in enough players for it to be called his squad. I can't see us going anywhere under him at this point as we don't seem to be changing anything. I believe that's largely because he buys the s*** he's saying on radio derby. If Warne genuinely thinks this is good and we're just unlucky we should get rid of him asap before he does too much damage. Previously I have said give him until Christmas, which i could still stomach, but i think it'd just be throwing more points away. 

[oomarkwright]

Mods. Can't we just whack all these Warne in/Warne out, shake it all about threads into one? 

[IslandExile]

5 minutes ago, oomarkwright said:

Mods. Can't we just whack all these Warne in/Warne out, shake it all about threads into one? 

And all the posts into two:

- Warne Out

- Warne In (for now)

Edited October 23, 2023 by IslandExile

[CongletonRam]

39 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said:

I advocated before that Warne should be given until xmas but now I no longer believe that should be the case. I think his attitude is turning increasingly sour on the club, i.e., not going over to the fans, increasingly moaning in the post-match pressers and his 'bubbly attitude' has been melting away for quite some time. It kind of indicates that he's in a fight for his job, and he doesn't really seem that up for it, tbh. 

I also think the direction of the play, the club, and the players is backwards. He's actively making us worse, not better. I understand there are periods when a team is settling in a new direction where we may see a downturn. But we are 1/4 of the way through the season with his squad, and let's be honest, it's about as bad as we could have imagined. Having concerns over the style isn't the mark of a customer necessarily, as @Leicester Ram argued; it is perhaps the mark of a philosophical inclination about how you would ideally like to see your team play, which is different. Yet, if we were effective at playing an ugly style people would not be booing and calling for his head. The problem is that we're playing ugly football and are ineffective at executing it. 

This drills down to tactical questions. Warne seems completely inflexible with a poor appreciation for what's happening on the pitch. His substitutions oftentimes don't yield results and his analysis doesn't match up with what everyone else is witnessing. He uses phrases such as 'working harder' 'more aggressive' 'more crosses' when we have a team full of ball-playing, technical attackers and midfielders. His inability to adapt to the resources given to him and brought into the club is the mark of a stunted tactical mind who is either unable or unwilling to change. He's frequently misusing players both positionally and putting them into systems which doesn't get the best out of them. 

I also think he seems quite temperamental and seemingly finds it difficult to be challenged. This trait has reared its head in public forums and interviews that he's given, which indicates a lack of confidence and character. I doubt it's a happy dressing room, and I don't believe he's someone who can dig us out of this funk. Indeed, I think he's mistaken in the size of the job. He once said it was no bigger than at Rotherham. Well, at Rotherham, I imagine he cultivated a culture where he knew everyone from the tea lady to the director, creating a single-minded unity without that much outside scrutiny. Here, it's a whole different ball game and I imagine shaping the culture to his desired ways is quite difficult with the size of the institution. 

Ultimately, I believe if Clowes sacked him now, he'd be doing the right thing. Warne has over a prolonged period of time disappointed with results and has had brought in enough players for it to be called his squad. I can't see us going anywhere under him at this point as we don't seem to be changing anything. I believe that's largely because he buys the s*** he's saying on radio derby. If Warne genuinely thinks this is good and we're just unlucky we should get rid of him asap before he does too much damage. Previously I have said give him until Christmas, which i could still stomach, but i think it'd just be throwing more points away. 

That's a great post despite it offering a different take on things than me.

I'm still very much right behind Warne and advocate time, but It's an interesting angle.

[Jram]

1 hour ago, sage said:

He bought Eder to play wing back, who is a left back with little pace, who has barely played wing back. 

If we have another window or 2 or Warne and it doesn't improve, the next manager has even more problems.

I don't get the blame everyone except Warne, blaming time, players, Rosenoir players characters etc Everyone should take responsibility except the man who is paid to. It's Narcissism by Proxy.

I do agree we need to start controlling games. 

 

Interestingly, im the opposite. I’m always surprised by people’s willingness to blame the manager when there are so many other variables at a club 

[sage]

3 minutes ago, Jram said:

Interestingly, im the opposite. I’m always surprised by people’s willingness to blame the manager when there are so many other variables at a club 

It's a manager's responsibility. He buys players, he coaches, he picks the team and tactics.

 

[Tamworthram]

7 hours ago, sage said:

It's a manager's responsibility. He buys players, he coaches, he picks the team and tactics.

 

It is if the players implement the tactics and what they have been practicing in training. It is if they get the basics right and don’t forget about the simple things even though they may be playing out of position.

I often come away from games struggling to name more than two or three players that have had particularly bad games but there does have to be an element of shared responsibility. Obviously it’s impossible to calculate but I’d put it at something like 80% Warne and 20% the players (in general, not all of them).

[sage]

8 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

It is if the players implement the tactics and what they have been practicing in training. It is if they get the basics right and don’t forget about the simple things even though they may be playing out of position.

I often come away from games struggling to name more than two or three players that have had particularly bad games but there does have to be an element of shared responsibility. Obviously it’s impossible to calculate but I’d put it at something like 80% Warne and 20% the players (in general, not all of them).

I'd largely agree with that. 

Our main weakness this year in terms of players has been the link between midfield and CF. Is it there fault or is it how we play?

[RodleyRam]

3 hours ago, sage said:

I'd largely agree with that. 

Our main weakness this year in terms of players has been the link between midfield and CF. Is it there fault or is it how we play?

If they're asked to consistently bypass the midfield either out to the wings or into the channels and the CF is not directed to stay in the box, then you've got to blame the tactics.

However, I'm never sure how much players are robots, surely if enough of them wanted to get their foot on the ball and play through the midfield, then they'd do it? Someone with greater experience of involvement at a high level may be able to give insight here.

[Chellaston Ram]

I read his comments saying if our home form this season was anything like last season, then losing away to Shrewsbury, would not be a disaster. Losing any time away to Shrewsbury is a disaster that just shows the bloke he’s not up for that job. For a club our size that is not acceptable.

[duncanjwitham]

3 hours ago, sage said:

I'd largely agree with that. 

Our main weakness this year in terms of players has been the link between midfield and CF. Is it there fault or is it how we play?

The issue is that there's no coherent plan when we get the ball into the final third.  When we had Steve Howard up front, we went direct to him, but the ball stuck because he was big and strong, so we could get Barnes/Pearson/Bisgaard etc running off him.  With Martin we played into his feet and he linked up with Bryson/Ward/Russell etc.  With Rowett's team we sat deep and had 4 quick guys up front to break on people.  All of those things suited the guys we had at the time, and got them doing what they were good at.

We don't seem to do anything well enough or often enough, we just get it forward as quickly as we can and hope somebody does something.  We cross sometimes, but not very well, and there's nobody in the box when we do.  We go direct sometimes, but there's nobody big enough and strong enough to hold it up.  We play into feet occasionally, but we don't have the technical ability there to link up.  We chip it over the top, but we don't have the pace in behind to hurt teams.  Sometimes things randomly line up and we do one of those things well, but it basically seems to happen at random, not because we're actively trying to make it work.

We just need to pick some kind of plan that suits the majority of the XI we intend to use, and focus on making sure we do that thing effectively.  Whether that be putting a dozen crosses on Collins head every game, or getting Waghorn/Sibley/Bakhuizen cutting in and shooting on their strong feet, or have Bird threading through-balls for the more mobile guys to run onto.

[RoyMac5]

13 hours ago, Leeds Ram said:

I advocated before that Warne should be given until xmas but now I no longer believe that should be the case. I think his attitude is turning increasingly sour on the club, i.e., not going over to the fans, increasingly moaning in the post-match pressers and his 'bubbly attitude' has been melting away for quite some time. It kind of indicates that he's in a fight for his job, and he doesn't really seem that up for it, tbh. 

I also think the direction of the play, the club, and the players is backwards. He's actively making us worse, not better. I understand there are periods when a team is settling in a new direction where we may see a downturn. But we are 1/4 of the way through the season with his squad, and let's be honest, it's about as bad as we could have imagined. Having concerns over the style isn't the mark of a customer necessarily, as @Leicester Ram argued; it is perhaps the mark of a philosophical inclination about how you would ideally like to see your team play, which is different. Yet, if we were effective at playing an ugly style people would not be booing and calling for his head. The problem is that we're playing ugly football and are ineffective at executing it. 

This drills down to tactical questions. Warne seems completely inflexible with a poor appreciation for what's happening on the pitch. His substitutions oftentimes don't yield results and his analysis doesn't match up with what everyone else is witnessing. He uses phrases such as 'working harder' 'more aggressive' 'more crosses' when we have a team full of ball-playing, technical attackers and midfielders. His inability to adapt to the resources given to him and brought into the club is the mark of a stunted tactical mind who is either unable or unwilling to change. He's frequently misusing players both positionally and putting them into systems which doesn't get the best out of them. 

I also think he seems quite temperamental and seemingly finds it difficult to be challenged. This trait has reared its head in public forums and interviews that he's given, which indicates a lack of confidence and character. I doubt it's a happy dressing room, and I don't believe he's someone who can dig us out of this funk. Indeed, I think he's mistaken in the size of the job. He once said it was no bigger than at Rotherham. Well, at Rotherham, I imagine he cultivated a culture where he knew everyone from the tea lady to the director, creating a single-minded unity without that much outside scrutiny. Here, it's a whole different ball game and I imagine shaping the culture to his desired ways is quite difficult with the size of the institution. 

Ultimately, I believe if Clowes sacked him now, he'd be doing the right thing. Warne has over a prolonged period of time disappointed with results and has had brought in enough players for it to be called his squad. I can't see us going anywhere under him at this point as we don't seem to be changing anything. I believe that's largely because he buys the s*** he's saying on radio derby. If Warne genuinely thinks this is good and we're just unlucky we should get rid of him asap before he does too much damage. Previously I have said give him until Christmas, which i could still stomach, but i think it'd just be throwing more points away. 

10/10 Especially your points about his character. Most get taken in by his jolly joker persona.

This says it all. But we end up saying it again and again because Clowes or Pearce seem unable to comprehend the mess the Club might get into if we continue with Warne.

[Tamworthram]

23 minutes ago, Chellaston Ram said:

I read his comments saying if our home form this season was anything like last season, then losing away to Shrewsbury, would not be a disaster. Losing any time away to Shrewsbury is a disaster that just shows the bloke he’s not up for that job. For a club our size that is not acceptable.

I think that is being a bit harsh and you are misinterpreting his point (IMO). If we had been winning our home games then to have lost only our second away game (out of 7 and having won 4)) wouldn't have been so much of a disaster pretty much regardless of the opposition but particularly in the case of a team like Shrewsbury. After their win at the weekend, they are ranked 7th best in the league for home form. A "club of our size" is irrelevant and some of us need to get this divine right mentality out of our heads. We're a league one team with, generally speaking, league one players. 

[RoyMac5]

4 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

I think that is being a bit harsh and you are misinterpreting his point (IMO). If we had been winning our home games then to have lost only our second away game (out of 7 and having won 4)) wouldn't have been so much of a disaster pretty much regardless of the opposition but particularly in the case of a team like Shrewsbury. After their win at the weekend, they are ranked 7th best in the league for home form. A "club of our size" is irrelevant and some of us need to get this divine right mentality out of our heads. We're a league one team with, generally speaking, league one players. 

Are we winning our home games then? 😕

[FlyBritishMidland]

29 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

10/10 Especially your points about his character. Most get taken in by his jolly joker persona.

This says it all. But we end up saying it again and again because Clowes or Pearce seem unable to comprehend the mess the Club might get into if we continue with Warne.

On the persona and media interview point that @Leeds Ram makes I think there are a couple of reasons for that.  Firstly, he’s in the spotlight at Derby. By that, I mean that in terms of sport and football DCFC is the focal point.  Everything he says gets picked up on and analysed, sometimes incorrectly but you know what I mean.  At Rotherham, he was 3rd behind both Sheffield clubs.  They were the main focus so he wasn’t under the same scrutiny.  Secondly, I’ve noticed a change since Dominic Dietrich has started doing the interviews.  No offence to Ed but he’s a fan and come across as wanting to be Warne’s mate.  Dom seems to ask the more pertinent questions (e.g. why not bring Sibley on, etc).

Edited October 24, 2023 by FlyBritishMidland

[Chellaston Ram]

41 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

I think that is being a bit harsh and you are misinterpreting his point (IMO). If we had been winning our home games then to have lost only our second away game (out of 7 and having won 4)) wouldn't have been so much of a disaster pretty much regardless of the opposition but particularly in the case of a team like Shrewsbury. After their win at the weekend, they are ranked 7th best in the league for home form. A "club of our size" is irrelevant and some of us need to get this divine right mentality out of our heads. We're a league one team with, generally speaking, league one players. 

 I understand what you are saying, but we are a league one side with a league one manager, but with proven championship players and shouldn’t accept losing to Shrewsbury even if our home form was good

[Tamworthram]

27 minutes ago, Chellaston Ram said:

 I understand what you are saying, but we are a league one side with a league one manager, but with proven championship players and shouldn’t accept losing to Shrewsbury even if our home form was good

Whether our players have proven championship ability or not is a debate for another day but the point of his comment, as I understood it, was that our poor home form makes losing any away game more of disaster. If our home form was good we could afford to carry (I.e. it’s not a disaster) the occasional blip away from home. He wasn’t talking about whether should be avoiding defeat against teams like Shrewsbury or not. Hence why I think you have misinterpreted his comment.

There is plenty to be critical of PW for but that particular comment isn’t one of them. He was simply stating a fact.