Warne Out Out

[ramboy63]

2 hours ago, The Last Post said:

I was speaking to a Matlock Towns players Dad on Saturday while at BTFC, He was telling me that Matlock have a player who earns £750 a week at his job and £500 a week playing for Matlock.

Managers/coaches were/are monitoring him with clubs from the GM Vauxhall conference and maybe league 2, Unless they came up with £2k a week he's not interested, Not a clue on how much Crewe pay their players...would £2k a week be about right 🤷‍♂️

Yes not far off,i go the watch the Staggs from time to time as i live in Mansfield also i know someone who works in there commercial office,there highest player is £5K a week but most are on £2.5K-£3K

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

3 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

If they are a 3rd choice goalkeeper at League One level, I'm going to suspect that their wages aren't breaking the bank.

They missed out on a player in the summer as the chance to increase an offer wasn't there and the amount to be made up was close. Wasted money is wasted money. Far too much has gone on 3rd choice goalies and unfit loans.

[Mostyn6]

1 hour ago, DRBee said:

There are some managers who have the skill to motivate their team for cup ties year after year ........  N Clough ?

hardly as Derby gaffer tho!

[G STAR RAM]

24 minutes ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

They missed out on a player in the summer as the chance to increase an offer wasn't there and the amount to be made up was close. Wasted money is wasted money. Far too much has gone on 3rd choice goalies and unfit loans.

How much did we need to increase the offer by and how much are we spending on the 3rd choice goalkeeper and unfit loans?

[BondJovi]

1 hour ago, YorkshireRam said:

I could, but my initial response was a bit harsh so I deleted it. That post featured quite a lot of conjecture- ''I feel'', ''I imagine'', it's mostly just negative speculation. I've said a fair few times before I don't really care about these sort of opinions because it's just blind pessimism. For all the ''I imagine Weston feels deflated'', equally he may still be buzzing that he's already scored a senior goal for the club he only signed for in the summer?

If you feel a single cup loss has destroyed any or all momentum we had, then we'll have to respectfully agree to disagree. I've seen us suffer similarly embarrassing cup losses before and go on to have successful seasons overall- I really don't think this defines anything at all.

Of course, I'd be bloody stupid to state feelings as facts without that person directly telling me.

The performance against Crewe was rubbish. The substitutions/tactical changes had zero impact on the match. The manager chose to put on a defender when losing the game instead of giving a chance to a player who had scored and asissted in his pervious game.

Do you think Weston was buzzing when a defender got sent on before him when the team needed goals? Maybe next time he needs to score a hat trick and then Warne might take note...

In terms of momentum, I was referring more to the feel good generated around the academy. Of course we can still have a good season, but this reluctance to ultilise our squad could be our undoing. Given the number of players out of contract in the summer, these cup competitons would have been a good time to see if we had anyone in the academy who could step up. Their chances are now seriously limited before January. Makes even less sense when the cash isn't flowing.

Warne has not sent out the right messages regarding the academy, intentional or not and just when it looks like that has changed, he blows it. What is the point in investing heavily in keeping our cat 1 status if the figurehead won't utilise it. He has only really used those players in a game against a fellow U21 team. Right now, there is not a clear pathway.

A lof of fans have their concerns about his use of the squad, confused as to why he didn't do something that seemed like the most obvious thing to do. What concerns me most about this is that it seems like a complete lack of forward planning, the Wolves U21 game was not in the long term thinking, only decided a few days before.

Am I stupid for having concerns about his long term management of this club? This run of games up to Christmas is vital. If we aren't secure in those play off spots, it doesn't look good for him. I would have more patience if I could see that there was some long term thinking happening, if we were trying to do this with a young squad. But it all feels very Rowett like to me.

 

 

 

[YorkshireRam]

21 minutes ago, BondJovi said:

Do you think Weston was buzzing when a defender got sent on before him when the team needed goals? Maybe next time he needs to score a hat trick and then Warne might take note...

You've fairly succinctly made my point for me here. Being included on the bench the following game after making your debut is 'taking note', it's not like he was instantly relegated back to the youth sides. Just because he isn't being launched into the deep end of regular first team football doesn't mean he's being ignored...  

He's also likely sensible enough to understand the reality of professional football and how the transition into the first team squad is not necessarily an instant one, and comprises of continually taking your chances when they're presented. 

The Bradley substitution was to alter the formation and try and push the wide players further forward. It was an attacking change involving a defensive player. It was not a direct affront to Weston and his personal development as a player. 

''Warne has not sent out the right messages regarding the academy''- without speaking to some of the academy players on the cusp of making the step into the first team picture, I have no way of assessing how true this statement is. Have you had contact of this kind, or is this just a guess?

[Ram@Lincoln]

1 hour ago, ramboy63 said:

Yes not far off,i go the watch the Staggs from time to time as i live in Mansfield also i know someone who works in there commercial office,there highest player is £5K a week but most are on £2.5K-£3K

I deal with quite a few Lincoln players with my job. While we were in admin with the £5k salary cap, I joked to one of their players that came in about joining us for "only" £5k a week. His reply was that £5k was substantially more than most of them are on and they'd all take it despite the uncertainty at the time. They're all on 12/18/24 month contracts anyway, so a 12 month contract on way more money more than makes up for it. £2.5-3k a week, like Mansfield, is probably about in line for Lincoln.

[duncanjwitham]

42 minutes ago, BondJovi said:

Warne has not sent out the right messages regarding the academy, intentional or not and just when it looks like that has changed, he blows it. What is the point in investing heavily in keeping our cat 1 status if the figurehead won't utilise it. He has only really used those players in a game against a fellow U21 team. Right now, there is not a clear pathway.

Radio Derby played an interview clip with Warne before the game the other night.  He was absolutely crystal clear that youth players on the bench are only there to be used if the game is completely over (us being 3 goals up or down was specifically mentioned), he really has no intention of using them to meaningfully alter a game at all.  Even in a game like the Crewe replay where the bench was mostly youth players, they weren't going to actually be used.

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said:

How much did we need to increase the offer by and how much are we spending on the 3rd choice goalkeeper and unfit loans?

Around 2000k a week.  Embleton and John Jules till January -Can't imagine Sunderland and Arsenal would be cheap.  Average salary for a 3rd choice keeper- a large chunk or maybe more than we needed to sort out a deal for the forward.

Your question is a moot point regardless.  The answer is a lot more for 3 players than an increase in wages for one to match another League 1 teams offer.

[Ghost of Clough]

40 minutes ago, BondJovi said:

Of course, I'd be bloody stupid to state feelings as facts without that person directly telling me.

The performance against Crewe was rubbish. The substitutions/tactical changes had zero impact on the match. The manager chose to put on a defender when losing the game instead of giving a chance to a player who had scored and asissted in his pervious game.

Do you think Weston was buzzing when a defender got sent on before him when the team needed goals? Maybe next time he needs to score a hat trick and then Warne might take note...

In terms of momentum, I was referring more to the feel good generated around the academy. Of course we can still have a good season, but this reluctance to ultilise our squad could be our undoing. Given the number of players out of contract in the summer, these cup competitons would have been a good time to see if we had anyone in the academy who could step up. Their chances are now seriously limited before January. Makes even less sense when the cash isn't flowing.

Warne has not sent out the right messages regarding the academy, intentional or not and just when it looks like that has changed, he blows it. What is the point in investing heavily in keeping our cat 1 status if the figurehead won't utilise it. He has only really used those players in a game against a fellow U21 team. Right now, there is not a clear pathway.

A lof of fans have their concerns about his use of the squad, confused as to why he didn't do something that seemed like the most obvious thing to do. What concerns me most about this is that it seems like a complete lack of forward planning, the Wolves U21 game was not in the long term thinking, only decided a few days before.

Am I stupid for having concerns about his long term management of this club? This run of games up to Christmas is vital. If we aren't secure in those play off spots, it doesn't look good for him. I would have more patience if I could see that there was some long term thinking happening, if we were trying to do this with a young squad. But it all feels very Rowett like to me.

 

 

 

The use of squad was a question I posed to Warne at the last Fans Forum. His response was "they aren't ready".

His response was flawed for many reasons: there's a difference between being ready for the occasional 10 minutes at the end of games and being a regular full 90 minutes player; a limited number of times he had watched the youngsters; not knowing their names, including Weston who scored a hattrick for the U21s earlier in the day; a lack of experience in bringing youngsters through an academy; involvement in Category 1 academies.
Arguably the biggest flaw is him having a different view to the majority of managers in the game - you don't know if a player is ready for first team football until they're thrown in at the deep end. In the one game they did get, Fapetu and Weston excelled, yet not used again in the two games since.

Whilst Warne admitted (to some degree) that burnout was an issue last season, he refused to admit that the academy could have helped. In low risk scenarios, such as the cup competitions, or being 3-0 up vs Burton and Barnsley, 2-0 vs Carlisle, 4-0 vs Northampton, this is the perfect opportunity to bring first team regulars off with 20-30 minutes to go and give the youngsters a shot to impress. To not even use all our subs and leave youngsters on the pitch is diabolical.
Further to resting first teamers, it also puts the player in the shop window. By playing at League level, they display their ability to earn a loan move as high up the pyramid as their ability deserves. Without that game time, potential clubs are only going off academy level football. Bogle is an obvious example, where we couldn't get him a decent loan because he never had first team football before.
Minutes to academy players is also a selling point to recruit the best possible academy youngsters, AND improves our ability to retain them.

[G STAR RAM]

8 minutes ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

Around 2000k a week.  Embleton and John Jules till January -Can't imagine Sunderland and Arsenal would be cheap.  Average salary for a 3rd choice keeper- a large chunk or maybe more than we needed to sort out a deal for the forward.

Your question is a moot point regardless.  The answer is a lot more for 3 players than an increase in wages for one to match another League 1 teams offer.

Who was the extra £2k per week for?

[Ghost of Clough]

1 hour ago, YorkshireRam said:

You've fairly succinctly made my point for me here. Being included on the bench the following game after making your debut is 'taking note', it's not like he was instantly relegated back to the youth sides. Just because he isn't being launched into the deep end of regular first team football doesn't mean he's being ignored...  

He's also likely sensible enough to understand the reality of professional football and how the transition into the first team squad is not necessarily an instant one, and comprises of continually taking your chances when they're presented. 

The Bradley substitution was to alter the formation and try and push the wide players further forward. It was an attacking change involving a defensive player. It was not a direct affront to Weston and his personal development as a player. 

''Warne has not sent out the right messages regarding the academy''- without speaking to some of the academy players on the cusp of making the step into the first team picture, I have no way of assessing how true this statement is. Have you had contact of this kind, or is this just a guess?

An attacking change would have been Weston on, going to '2 at the back', and pushing the 'fullbacks' further forward.
The change he actually made encouraged us to cross it more often as the balance to create through the middle was lost

[nottingram]

2 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

The use of squad was a question I posed to Warne at the last Fans Forum. His response was "they aren't ready".

His response was flawed for many reasons: there's a difference between being ready for the occasional 10 minutes at the end of games and being a regular full 90 minutes player; a limited number of times he had watched the youngsters; not knowing their names, including Weston who scored a hattrick for the U21s earlier in the day; a lack of experience in bringing youngsters through an academy; involvement in Category 1 academies.
Arguably the biggest flaw is him having a different view to the majority of managers in the game - you don't know if a player is ready for first team football until they're thrown in at the deep end. In the one game they did get, Fapetu and Weston excelled, yet not used again in the two games since.

Whilst Warne admitted (to some degree) that burnout was an issue last season, he refused to admit that the academy could have helped. In low risk scenarios, such as the cup competitions, or being 3-0 up vs Burton and Barnsley, 2-0 vs Carlisle, 4-0 vs Northampton, this is the perfect opportunity to bring first team regulars off with 20-30 minutes to go and give the youngsters a shot to impress. To not even use all our subs and leave youngsters on the pitch is diabolical.
Further to resting first teamers, it also puts the player in the shop window. By playing at League level, they display their ability to earn a loan move as high up the pyramid as their ability deserves. Without that game time, potential clubs are only going off academy level football. Bogle is an obvious example, where we couldn't get him a decent loan because he never had first team football before.
Minutes to academy players is also a selling point to recruit the best possible academy youngsters, AND improves our ability to retain them.

It’s strange - the seemingly accepted very short term approach Warne seems to take (not a criticism or praise, particularly) is completely at odds with almost every message that comes from the owner where it is all about sustainability, not panicking if we don’t get promoted.

I think anyone sensible would have no problem with a long term outlook on things if the stuff happening on the pitch actually suggested that was the plan. But we have largely targeted ready made players (not necessarily old), academy players do not get any minutes that matter, and we’re taking a pretty big risk on the value of any players we could sell who’s contracts are up soon.

Not to mention hiring a manager who’s experience to date suggested quick success at this level and finding our way back here immediately anyway.  

[i-Ram]

1 hour ago, YorkshireRam said:

The Bradley substitution was to alter the formation and try and push the wide players further forward. It was an attacking change involving a defensive player. It was not a direct affront to Weston and his personal development as a player. 

Lol. All them wide crosses in the second half were having no success at all. So what do we do different. Nothing, other than increase the number of loads in from the wings. Paul Warne is the General Haig of EFL Division One.

[YorkshireRam]

15 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

An attacking change would have been Weston on, going to '2 at the back', and pushing the 'fullbacks' further forward.
The change he actually made encouraged us to cross it more often as the balance to create through the middle was lost

8 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

Lol. All them wide crosses in the second half were having no success at all. So what do we do different. Nothing, other than increase the number of loads in from the wings. Paul Warne is the General Haig of EFL Division One.

I'm not referring to the effectiveness of the substitution, I'm directly addressing the implication that Warne's substitution was a deliberate snub to the academy players, namely Weston. The claim, as I interpreted it, was essentially: Weston would be dismayed to see a defender being substituted on over him when we're chasing the game. My response was that it was a tactical change to alter shape (which justifies the sub alone) and it's a very trivial action to try use to evidence the point that Warne doesn't want to utilise or develop academy graduates. 

[BondJovi]

1 hour ago, YorkshireRam said:

You've fairly succinctly made my point for me here. Being included on the bench the following game after making your debut is 'taking note', it's not like he was instantly relegated back to the youth sides. Just because he isn't being launched into the deep end of regular first team football doesn't mean he's being ignored...  

He's also likely sensible enough to understand the reality of professional football and how the transition into the first team squad is not necessarily an instant one, and comprises of continually taking your chances when they're presented. 

The Bradley substitution was to alter the formation and try and push the wide players further forward. It was an attacking change involving a defensive player. It was not a direct affront to Weston and his personal development as a player. 

''Warne has not sent out the right messages regarding the academy''- without speaking to some of the academy players on the cusp of making the step into the first team picture, I have no way of assessing how true this statement is. Have you had contact of this kind, or is this just a guess?

Given the strength of the starting 11, my instinct tells me were it not for the international call ups and injuries that bench would not have contained the youth. I don't believe for one second he wanted to use them. I guess the proof will be how much youth involvement we see in the coming games. Does your manager coming out and saying he will only play you if the game is won and 3-0 inspire you?

I don't see anybody arguing that Weston should be a first team regular based on one sub appearance, but the last two games presented an ideal chance to let him get more of a taste for first team football, a taste that he would learn far more from than sat on his ass. If he played well, then he puts himself in the picture, if not, he knows what to work on. Otherwise what does he gain. A reward for him scoring and assisting, we all know Warne loves his rewards.

As for the sub, I understand entriely the reasoning behind it. All it did was give players who weren't playing well, more time to continue. It didn't need the same faces in new places, it needed something different. The result speaks for itself on the effectiveness of his decision. 

The last point is purely an opinion formed on the comments Warne has made publicly, the actions he has taken with his team choices. When he started Thompson, his comments after the match were of the "only young bless him". It was very much a picked him because he had to, not because he wanted to. And that is the message I do not like. He played the youth against Wolves because he wanted to rest some of the first team, not because he wanted to see what the youth could do. He is not used to working with an academy and it shows. 

I would be delighted to be wrong, because it will be the best for the club. I hope I am. 

 

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

51 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Who was the extra £2k per week for?

Harris at Oxford

[RoyMac5]

2 hours ago, duncanjwitham said:

Radio Derby played an interview clip with Warne before the game the other night.  He was absolutely crystal clear that youth players on the bench are only there to be used if the game is completely over (us being 3 goals up or down was specifically mentioned), he really has no intention of using them to meaningfully alter a game at all.  Even in a game like the Crewe replay where the bench was mostly youth players, they weren't going to actually be used.

Wow. That is quite some statement. 😞 I remember 'someone' saying how good the atmosphere was in the Academy when a youngster came back after being given a chance in the first team. I wonder what the atmosphere is like when they heard Warne's comment.

[duncanjwitham]

4 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Wow. That is quite some statement. 😞 I remember 'someone' saying how good the atmosphere was in the Academy when a youngster came back after being given a chance in the first team. I wonder what the atmosphere is like when they heard Warne's comment.

11:40 onwards in here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0grntp1

"Hopefully we'll be able to make subs, but not patronising the opposition, I'll only make subs if the game is completely out of control either way. If we're getting humped I might as well let the academy lads play and if we're winning comfortably I will."

[Ghost of Clough]

1 hour ago, i-Ram said:

Lol. All them wide crosses in the second half were having no success at all. So what do we do different. Nothing, other than increase the number of loads in from the wings. Paul Warne is the General Haig of EFL Division One.

FYI, Rotherham attempted 25% more crosses than the 2nd highest in League 1 in the 21/22 season.