Max Bird

[duncanjwitham]

5 minutes ago, jameso said:

Good points. I did suggest Lampard as a model specifically because I didn't see Lampard as the classic "box-to-box" midfielder and I don't see Bird as one either (unlike Gerrard, for example). It's probably still not a great comparison though - Bird maybe wants to find the quality through ball (rather than quantity of possible through balls), while Lampard was more athletic and had a good instinct for when to appear  in attacking positions and how to score goals (including from jammy potshots!)

I think if you're going to compare him to England internationals (and obviously we're talking about type of player, not ability here), then Michael Carrick is the most obvious one for me.  You want him picking up the ball from the back 4, with 2 fairly dynamic midfielders alongside him  - a midfield 3 of Bird, Hendrick and Bryson (as they were for us) would be quite effective, for example.  He can just feed those guys runs all day long.  If you're going to push him further forward it has to be for very specific purpose, because I don't think he has the instinct to make those darting late runs that Lampard made, or the dribbling ability to go past someone that say Foden or Grealish has, or the engine and drive that Bellingham has.

[dantheram]

On 05/08/2023 at 20:01, B4ev6is said:

How come warn says we dont need to sell then.

Because saying opposite would be rather counter productive, regardless of the reality.  

[nogbad van 50]

5 hours ago, jameso said:

Good points. I did suggest Lampard as a model specifically because I didn't see Lampard as the classic "box-to-box" midfielder and I don't see Bird as one either (unlike Gerrard, for example). It's probably still not a great comparison though - Bird maybe wants to find the quality through ball (rather than quantity of possible through balls), while Lampard was more athletic and had a good instinct for when to appear  in attacking positions and how to score goals (including from jammy potshots!)

Strange that! I'm usually in agreement with most of your comments and your positivity but if I was asked to name a typical box to box midfielder then Lampard would be one of the first I'd mention!

Vive La Difference !👍

[Guest]

3 hours ago, nogbad van 50 said:

Strange that! I'm usually in agreement with most of your comments and your positivity but if I was asked to name a typical box to box midfielder then Lampard would be one of the first I'd mention!

Vive La Difference !👍

I always felt Lampard had the engine for a box-to-box midfielder but was a bit suspect on the defensive side of the role - especially compared to a Keane/Ince type.

I should qualify that by saying that I actively avoided games involving Mourinho teams (unless I thought they might lose) so probably didn't see as much of Lampard's career as I could have done!

[Yoxoram]

22 hours ago, Somersall Ram said:

I would love to know where people think Bird shout play. He has no physicality to pay centre holding midfield. Doesn’t tackle well or head well. Moved off the ball to easily. Can’t play no 10 position. Isn’t box to box energetic player. Doesn’t assist or score much. So where should we accommodate someone who appears to offer so little 

Be careful Somersall Ram, people had a go at me for being critical of Bird.

[McMuffin]

On 06/08/2023 at 20:41, Somersall Ram said:

I would love to know where people think Bird shout play. He has no physicality to pay centre holding midfield. Doesn’t tackle well or head well. Moved off the ball to easily. Can’t play no 10 position. Isn’t box to box energetic player. Doesn’t assist or score much. So where should we accommodate someone who appears to offer so little 

Most over rated player in my 30 years watching. I don’t get the hype. If he was that good we wouldn’t keep losing to very average teams in a very average league. Don’t know he’s playing half the Time, physically weak and not athletic at all. Ok on the ball but nothing special.

[McMuffin]

18 hours ago, Yoxoram said:

Be careful Somersall Ram, people had a go at me for being critical of Bird.

Why what do they see he’s bang average?

[IlsonDerby]

On 06/08/2023 at 13:16, Dcfcsr92 said:

Good players take it upon them selfs to find the ball only because he's in more advanced position doesn't mean he can't drop back to find the ball! Granted he's no number 10. Mcgoldick last season dropped numinous amount of times to find the ball. Just like sibley last season,I  feel he stuggles to have a roll in our team that doesn't suit him. It will suit sibley more this season where bird I feel you can't have him and hourihane in the same midfield too similar you need Bird to work his socks off in with hourihane which he did in previous season yesterday he was static which we ended up getting over ran because of it.

 

On 06/08/2023 at 19:03, jameso said:

But apart from all those things, he's amazing!

I have to respectfully disagree though. Physicality has developed and his tackling is much improved. He also intercepts pretty well which means tackles not always required. I don't see him being moved off (as) easily in a 1-to-1 as he was a couple of years back. I don't think he's a no.10 as such but I definitely think he can play a genuine no.8, like a Lampard (but with the inclination to shoot very much a work in progress). Can't read too much into pre-season friendlies, I know, but he assisted NML vs. Stoke, and in an unconventional manner he assisted our goal at the weekend too! I think he will score a few this year if played further forward.

In short, I'd persist with him as the most advanced of the midfield 3, unless there is a plan to bring in a player who can do that role even better, in which case he'd take the place of Hourihane or Smith.

 

On 06/08/2023 at 21:30, vonwright said:

Bird isn't the problem - Bird + Hourihane + Smith is the problem. Our midfield looked a bit slow, unathletic and physically weak last season and since then we've sold Knight. Bird or Hourihane would both look better with a different kind of midfielder playing alongside them.

I'm frankly puzzled that we didn't prioritise such a midfielder when we went on a signing spree at the start of summer. 

The solution now might seem to be sell Bird and use the proceeds to buy a different kind of midfielder but honestly I don't have any confidence we'd bring one in. 

Midfield is such an important part of the team and the balance has been wrong for a long time. I'm baffled that the management don't seem to see that. 

Although all comments I’ve quoted are slightly different the reply I wanted to say is probably relevant to all 3. 
 

I think it’s fine to play Bird as a number 10 but the other 10 has to be more orthodox (or we have to play him behind two different types of striker in a 1-2 variation rather than 2-1) playing him with NML means playing 2 Non specialists in that role. This isn’t a criticism of either of them but you can’t have 2 non specialists there. They’d both look a hell of a lot better with a proper 10 playing with them. 

[Guest]

47 minutes ago, IlsonDerby said:

 

 

Although all comments I’ve quoted are slightly different the reply I wanted to say is probably relevant to all 3. 
 

I think it’s fine to play Bird as a number 10 but the other 10 has to be more orthodox (or we have to play him behind two different types of striker in a 1-2 variation rather than 2-1) playing him with NML means playing 2 Non specialists in that role. This isn’t a criticism of either of them but you can’t have 2 non specialists there. They’d both look a hell of a lot better with a proper 10 playing with them. 

I do agree with much of this but not all.

Logically by describing an "orthodox" "proper 10" needed to complement Bird who doesn't have the associated qualities of one, it follows that Bird himself would not be a no.10, so he must be something else. (By weird analogy it is like making a cake where the recipe calls for sultanas but you don't have enough, so you say "We can use these raisins as extra sultanas, since the sultanas we already have will give it the right flavour" - all true but it doesn't make the raisins into sultanas; only the sultanas are sultanas!)

It's obviously your opinion that "you can't have 2 non specialists there". Personally I think you're right that having 2 players who haven't played the position (enough) is a risky measure and I wouldn't have NML there. Does specialism = experience? Or specific skills? Both/neither? More than this? If it's a matter of experience, how does one get experience? Or are we saying (particularly with NML) you can't teach an old dog new tricks? Could Bird really not learn the role  (or the bits not already automatic to him) and weren't there signs in pre-season he was doing OK there? Has Sibley got the requisite experience to be considered a proper no.10?

You might be right that 2 contrasting forwards is the way to go (maybe we'd have seen that already if Washington had been fully fit). I'm also open to the idea that putting a skilled and experienced no.10 in place of NML would help things too. I'm just not sure any of it makes Bird into a genuine no.10!

[winktheram]

1 hour ago, jameso said:

I do agree with much of this but not all.

Logically by describing an "orthodox" "proper 10" needed to complement Bird who doesn't have the associated qualities of one, it follows that Bird himself would not be a no.10, so he must be something else. (By weird analogy it is like making a cake where the recipe calls for sultanas but you don't have enough, so you say "We can use these raisins as extra sultanas, since the sultanas we already have will give it the right flavour" - all true but it doesn't make the raisins into sultanas; only the sultanas are sultanas!)

It's obviously your opinion that "you can't have 2 non specialists there". Personally I think you're right that having 2 players who haven't played the position (enough) is a risky measure and I wouldn't have NML there. Does specialism = experience? Or specific skills? Both/neither? More than this? If it's a matter of experience, how does one get experience? Or are we saying (particularly with NML) you can't teach an old dog new tricks? Could Bird really not learn the role  (or the bits not already automatic to him) and weren't there signs in pre-season he was doing OK there? Has Sibley got the requisite experience to be considered a proper no.10?

You might be right that 2 contrasting forwards is the way to go (maybe we'd have seen that already if Washington had been fully fit). I'm also open to the idea that putting a skilled and experienced no.10 in place of NML would help things too. I'm just not sure any of it makes Bird into a genuine no.10!

Bird is never, ever a 10. For me he's a bog standard central midfielder. Plays best in a 4-4-2 as one of the centre mids. 

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, winktheram said:

Bird is never, ever a 10. For me he's a bog standard central midfielder. Plays best in a 4-4-2 as one of the centre mids. 

Agree on the first sentence.

Not having the “bog standard” though! I fear the day when Bird lines up against us and shows us what he can really do. Same with Sibley. May it never happen!

[IlsonDerby]

2 hours ago, jameso said:

I do agree with much of this but not all.

Logically by describing an "orthodox" "proper 10" needed to complement Bird who doesn't have the associated qualities of one, it follows that Bird himself would not be a no.10, so he must be something else. (By weird analogy it is like making a cake where the recipe calls for sultanas but you don't have enough, so you say "We can use these raisins as extra sultanas, since the sultanas we already have will give it the right flavour" - all true but it doesn't make the raisins into sultanas; only the sultanas are sultanas!)

It's obviously your opinion that "you can't have 2 non specialists there". Personally I think you're right that having 2 players who haven't played the position (enough) is a risky measure and I wouldn't have NML there. Does specialism = experience? Or specific skills? Both/neither? More than this? If it's a matter of experience, how does one get experience? Or are we saying (particularly with NML) you can't teach an old dog new tricks? Could Bird really not learn the role  (or the bits not already automatic to him) and weren't there signs in pre-season he was doing OK there? Has Sibley got the requisite experience to be considered a proper no.10?

You might be right that 2 contrasting forwards is the way to go (maybe we'd have seen that already if Washington had been fully fit). I'm also open to the idea that putting a skilled and experienced no.10 in place of NML would help things too. I'm just not sure any of it makes Bird into a genuine no.10!

I don’t think any of my suggestions would transform Bird into a traditional 10 but I think he’s got enough technical ability and enough vision and control to be able to help piece things together. I just think someone next to him who has grown up playing the 10 role is a bit more risky/adventurous would work well with him. 

[Ambitious]

Not sure if anyone heard it, but sounded to me like Warne said Bird is playing s**** because he has had his head turned. He did it in typical Warne fashion and bizarrely used Vickers as the example, but obviously meant Bird. 

[inter politics]

Just now, Ambitious said:

Not sure if anyone heard it, but sounded to me like Warne said Bird is playing s**** because he has had his head turned. He did it in typical Warne fashion and bizarrely used Vickers as the example, but obviously meant Bird. 

But he played the whole game. Really strange behaviour from Warne. Needs to do this kind of stuff privately because he's let his players down with those comments.

[BuckoBeast]

If he’s had his head turned by Hull then they’re welcome to him 

[JPRamFan]

I think he said those comments as he was clutching at straws to make an excuse for such an abject display. 

[sage]

14 minutes ago, BuckoBeast said:

If he’s had his head turned by Hull then they’re welcome to him 

It was a diversion from his own poor tactics, pre-season, recruitment and team selection.  

If I was Bird I'd be in his office in the morning demanding an apology. 

Edited August 8, 2023 by sage

[inter politics]

1 minute ago, JPRamFan said:

I think he said those comments as he was clutching at straws to make an excuse for such an abject display. 

Agreed and I understand he's very annoyed but if I was him, I'd have an open discussion and apologise to the players tomorrow for that comment

[JPRamFan]

3 minutes ago, inter politics said:

Agreed and I understand he's very annoyed but if I was him, I'd have an open discussion and apologise to the players tomorrow for that comment

Yeah these comments will be all over social media and they need to be nipped in the bud.

[inter politics]

1 minute ago, JPRamFan said:

Yeah these comments will be all over social media and they need to be nipped in the bud.

Yep straightaway, Dawes was all over it as would any journalist be.