England - Euro 2024 qualifiers

[littleover ram]

55 minutes ago, jameso said:

I'm not sure you're going to get your wish but I hope so! I think he might go with tried-and-trusted because a safe draw leaves England needing only one more win from two matches to be sure of qualification.

I think 3 wins guarantees we're in the top pot for seeding for the Euro group stage. Draw and two wins would leave us looking at results from other teams  

Edited October 17, 2023 by littleover ram

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, littleover ram said:

I think 3 wins guarantees we're in the top pot for seeding for the Euro group stage. Draw and two wins would leave us looking at results from other teams  

It's a good point. I'm not sure whether it makes Southgate more or less likely to go with tried-and-trusted though! 😂

[TigerTedd]

5 hours ago, jameso said:

Italy 1 England 2 (Euro 24 qualifiers, March 2023)

England 1 Croatia 0 (Euro 20 finals, June 2021)

 

Obviously there was also

Croatia 2 England 1 (World Cup semi, July 2018)

 

If you're counting UEFA Nations League as worth anything:

Italy 1 England 0 (September 2022)

England 0 Italy 0 (June 2022)

England 2 Croatia 1 (November 2018)

Croatia 0 England 0 (October 2018)

 

Agreed that his record against Belgium and France (in anything that matters) could be better. Personally I thought England played well against France in the World Cup and should have kicked themselves very hard for not getting through.

Not a huge fan of Southgate but I do think his results (especially in the context of most previous England managers) have been good enough to cut him some slack. I'm also not sure who is both available and would do a better job!

 

EDIT: I have of course conveniently forgotten the Euros final! Although it was down to the lottery of a penalty shoot-out... having said that, I didn't think that game made a good case for Southgate. He seemed intent on going old-school Mourinho after taking the lead, and Italy were deserved winners.

You forgo the victory against Spain. 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, TigerTedd said:

You forgo the victory against Spain. 

I even managed to forget the final against Italy, which was one of the countries mentioned in the post I was responding to!

But I don't think the poster referred to Spain, so that's why I didn't mention it.

[TigerTedd]

5 hours ago, jameso said:

Italy 1 England 2 (Euro 24 qualifiers, March 2023)

England 1 Croatia 0 (Euro 20 finals, June 2021)

 

Obviously there was also

Croatia 2 England 1 (World Cup semi, July 2018)

 

If you're counting UEFA Nations League as worth anything:

Italy 1 England 0 (September 2022)

England 0 Italy 0 (June 2022)

England 2 Croatia 1 (November 2018)

Croatia 0 England 0 (October 2018)

 

Agreed that his record against Belgium and France (in anything that matters) could be better. Personally I thought England played well against France in the World Cup and should have kicked themselves very hard for not getting through.

Not a huge fan of Southgate but I do think his results (especially in the context of most previous England managers) have been good enough to cut him some slack. I'm also not sure who is both available and would do a better job!

 

EDIT: I have of course conveniently forgotten the Euros final! Although it was down to the lottery of a penalty shoot-out... having said that, I didn't think that game made a good case for Southgate. He seemed intent on going old-school Mourinho after taking the lead, and Italy were deserved winners.

Also, I get why he is why he is. And why fans are how they are. If England were a domestic side, you’d want him to go all guns blazing every now and then, and experiment with exciting players and things. If you get it wrong one week, it’s not the end of the world over the course of the season.

In international football, you have to get it right every time. Usually it’s knock out tournament football, and if it’s not, you’ve got far less matches on which to get judged, so if you make a mistake through experimenting, another couple of bad results and you’re out the door. 

fans treat England like its their local club. If derby had players like Bellingham and Kane, I’d be expecting to blow all opposition away every week.

but England are an international side. Less training time, less time to gel. Southgate has cottoned on to the idea that you’ve got to play reasonably simple tactics, reasonably safe, and keep a good team spirit to see you through in those circumstances. Keep it simple stupid. And then rely on individual brilliance to make the difference.

He’s not an elite manager, but he’s got elite players. People see that as us wasting a golden opportunity. But we could have a pep who experiments in the round of 16, and we end up loosing to a spawny goal from Greece or something. Southgate just keeps it plodding along. 

Is that the right approach? It could be the perfect approach for international football. Or maybe an elite manager would see us playing that prime Spain and blowing opposition away. Do you stick on 19 or do you twist, and hope you get 21

its a case of be careful what you wish for. We could get rid of Southgate, have more exciting football, and then not see another semi final til 2066.

there’s a parallel universe somewhere where Allardyce is still in charge. Well never know what results they’ve been getting in that universe. 

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, TigerTedd said:

Also, I get why he is why he is. And why fans are how they are. If England were a domestic side, you’d want him to go all guns blazing every now and then, and experiment with exciting players and things. If you get it wrong one week, it’s not the end of the world over the course of the season.

In international football, you have to get it right every time. Usually it’s knock out tournament football, and if it’s not, you’ve got far less matches on which to get judged, so if you make a mistake through experimenting, another couple of bad results and you’re out the door. 

fans treat England like its their local club. If derby had players like Bellingham and Kane, I’d be expecting to blow all opposition away every week.

but England are an international side. Less training time, less time to gel. Southgate has cottoned on to the idea that you’ve got to play reasonably simple tactics, reasonably safe, and keep a good team spirit to see you through in those circumstances. Keep it simple stupid. And then rely on individual brilliance to make the difference.

He’s not an elite manager, but he’s got elite players. People see that as us wasting a golden opportunity. But we could have a pep who experiments in the round of 16, and we end up loosing to a spawny goal from Greece or something. Southgate just keeps it plodding along. 

Is that the right approach? It could be the perfect approach for international football. Or maybe an elite manager would see us playing that prime Spain and blowing opposition away. Do you stick on 19 or do you twist, and hope you get 21

its a case of be careful what you wish for. We could get rid of Southgate, have more exciting football, and then not see another semi final til 2066.

there’s a parallel universe somewhere where Allardyce is still in charge. Well never know what results they’ve been getting in that universe. 

I wasn't sure whether to 👏,❤, or 😂 that post... went with my first instinct in the end 😉

[SSD]

Can't believe he has dropped Tomori from the squad for tonight's game.

This isn't a Derby bias by the way, he plays against the best Italian players every week and knows the league well, an important first team player at centre half for AC Milan. Oh well, lets pick Harry Maguire instead who is 4th choice centre back at Man Utd. It genuinely feels like Southgate is going to pick his favourites for the next tournament, not bother thinking of the future and leave at the end of the Euros with all these senior players who aren't kicking a ball regularly.

[roboto]

1 hour ago, SSD said:

Can't believe he has dropped Tomori from the squad for tonight's game.

This isn't a Derby bias by the way, he plays against the best Italian players every week and knows the league well, an important first team player at centre half for AC Milan. Oh well, lets pick Harry Maguire instead who is 4th choice centre back at Man Utd. It genuinely feels like Southgate is going to pick his favourites for the next tournament, not bother thinking of the future and leave at the end of the Euros with all these senior players who aren't kicking a ball regularly.

It's a horrendous choice in my opinion (not that Southgate cares what I think). I also mentioned up thread that Tomori has been part of one of the most solid Serie A defences the last few seasons. This year the only match they've lost is when he was suspended (for a second yellow in the previous match that was dubious). His team got to the semi-finals of the Champions League last year, thanks to some solid defending.

Harry Maguire can only dream of having the impact the last few seasons that Tomori has had.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, roboto said:

It's a horrendous choice in my opinion (not that Southgate cares what I think). I also mentioned up thread that Tomori has been part of one of the most solid Serie A defences the last few seasons. This year the only match they've lost is when he was suspended (for a second yellow in the previous match that was dubious). His team got to the semi-finals of the Champions League last year, thanks to some solid defending.

Harry Maguire can only dream of having the impact the last few seasons that Tomori has had.

I'm honestly not going to make a case for Harry Maguire to be in ahead of Tomori - he definitely shouldn't be IMO.

But to be fair to Maguire, he has done OK for England (much better than I expected in the World Cup), and I can understand Southgate sticking with people he trusts. It's a gamble though.

[Mostyn6]

I love Tomori, but the Italian league is not what it once was, and the successful teams are tactically defensive. I feel he needs to move back to a pacier, more attacking league to put himself into the reckoning for a starting England place.

Just my opinion and not based on any factual evidence. 

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said:

I love Tomori, but the Italian league is not what it once was, and the successful teams are tactically defensive. I feel he needs to move back to a pacier, more attacking league to put himself into the reckoning for a starting England place.

Just my opinion and not based on any factual evidence. 

That stuff only gets in the way 😜

I would agree with you about Serie A except for being a bit surprised that two of their teams made it to the Champions League semis last year which would suggest the standard is decent... but then maybe it doesn't have the depth of the Premier League... but then look at some of the teams in the Premier League this year! 🤦‍♂️

[Marriot Ram99]

2 hours ago, TigerTedd said:

Also, I get why he is why he is. And why fans are how they are. If England were a domestic side, you’d want him to go all guns blazing every now and then, and experiment with exciting players and things. If you get it wrong one week, it’s not the end of the world over the course of the season.

In international football, you have to get it right every time. Usually it’s knock out tournament football, and if it’s not, you’ve got far less matches on which to get judged, so if you make a mistake through experimenting, another couple of bad results and you’re out the door. 

fans treat England like its their local club. If derby had players like Bellingham and Kane, I’d be expecting to blow all opposition away every week.

but England are an international side. Less training time, less time to gel. Southgate has cottoned on to the idea that you’ve got to play reasonably simple tactics, reasonably safe, and keep a good team spirit to see you through in those circumstances. Keep it simple stupid. And then rely on individual brilliance to make the difference.

He’s not an elite manager, but he’s got elite players. People see that as us wasting a golden opportunity. But we could have a pep who experiments in the round of 16, and we end up loosing to a spawny goal from Greece or something. Southgate just keeps it plodding along. 

Is that the right approach? It could be the perfect approach for international football. Or maybe an elite manager would see us playing that prime Spain and blowing opposition away. Do you stick on 19 or do you twist, and hope you get 21

its a case of be careful what you wish for. We could get rid of Southgate, have more exciting football, and then not see another semi final til 2066.

there’s a parallel universe somewhere where Allardyce is still in charge. Well never know what results they’ve been getting in that universe. 

Not see a semi final to 2066? That is ridiculous.

What people have to realise is we have one of the best teams in the world that has a similar quality of players to Man City, the younger age groups are all amazing full of talent and since around 2010 the FA realised our way of playing was outdated and inspired by Spain and Barcelona all the best kids have been coached better and we will have good groups of players for the foreseeable future.

Just because we were s**** when we had Hodgson as manager who never a top tier coach with Downing and average players in the squad like Cleverly and Austin doesn't mean that we will be like that anytime soon, in the past we were up against national teams of significantly higher standard think of 2006 Italy or 2002 Brazil. They would batter us now but we aren't up against that quality so relatively speaking we are a good side and definitely shouldn't be acting with gratitude and a pat on the back to Southgate for getting us to a Semi final or whatever when we should be doing that. Back in the day we were up against Figo, Rui Costa, R9 Ronaldo, Ronaldinho now the standard of opposition is relatively piss poor compared to then bar France maybe.

I'm very optimistic about the future of English football largely thanks to Guardiola and his coaching influence and people like De Zerbi and Klopp who will help the England team out as all our managers are very mediocre in comparison because of the football culture they were brought up in with old school cross it in football with no real smart tactics. We might have spells where we are very meh but I definitely think people are way over negative about England when in the here and now and in the next 5 years or so we should be up there with any team.

Edited October 17, 2023 by Marriot Ram99

[Marriot Ram99]

21 minutes ago, jameso said:

That stuff only gets in the way 😜

I would agree with you about Serie A except for being a bit surprised that two of their teams made it to the Champions League semis last year which would suggest the standard is decent... but then maybe it doesn't have the depth of the Premier League... but then look at some of the teams in the Premier League this year! 🤦‍♂️

Serie A isn't that good you have to look at the draw those teams had, beating someone like Benfica isn't a real tough test compared to Real Madrid or Bayern. Honestly nobody is that good, Arsenal could win the f****** champions league honestly because bar City,Madrid(iffy defence with Joselu upfront), and Bayern maybe.. nobody is that good. Relative to the 2010s the standard is very weak now especially in defence.

[Marriot Ram99]

6 hours ago, littleover ram said:

I hope he tries TAA in midfield with Rice and Bellingham tonight. Would be very disappointed if the usual faces Phillips and Maguire are given a run out instead.

This will be the line up tonight.

           Pickford

Walker Geuhi /Stones Maguire Trippier

         Phillips Rice 

             Bellingham 

Foden     Kane   Maddison *Rashford maybe

Conservative line up for a very safety first Conservative guy, definitely see him playing 2 holding midfielders. 

Edited October 17, 2023 by Marriot Ram99

[Bris Vegas]

9 hours ago, jameso said:

Italy 1 England 2 (Euro 24 qualifiers, March 2023)

England 1 Croatia 0 (Euro 20 finals, June 2021)

 

Obviously there was also

Croatia 2 England 1 (World Cup semi, July 2018)

 

If you're counting UEFA Nations League as worth anything:

Italy 1 England 0 (September 2022)

England 0 Italy 0 (June 2022)

England 2 Croatia 1 (November 2018)

Croatia 0 England 0 (October 2018)

 

Agreed that his record against Belgium and France (in anything that matters) could be better. Personally I thought England played well against France in the World Cup and should have kicked themselves very hard for not getting through.

Not a huge fan of Southgate but I do think his results (especially in the context of most previous England managers) have been good enough to cut him some slack. I'm also not sure who is both available and would do a better job!

 

EDIT: I have of course conveniently forgotten the Euros final! Although it was down to the lottery of a penalty shoot-out... having said that, I didn't think that game made a good case for Southgate. He seemed intent on going old-school Mourinho after taking the lead, and Italy were deserved winners.

The nations league is just glorified friendlies. I don’t count any result in them, whether it is beating Spain or being trounced by Hungary. Nobody cares about them.

The qualifiers are tedious too. Tournament football is all that matters.

And Southgate’s record on paper reads semi-final, final and quarter-final defeat to the first decent team we played.

I thought we were better than France at the world cup. I think that was our best performance in tournament football for decades.

Our current XI is the best of my lifetime and it will be a shame if we can’t prove it by actually toppling a top team. 

We have, on paper, fared better than Belgium over the past three tournaments. But they have a much better scalps with wins over England, Brazil, Portugal. 

England’s best win under Southgate was a home win over a poor Germany side who South Korea and Mexico beat at the previous World Cup.

Wins over Ukraine, Denmark, Sweden, Senegal and Colombia literally got us a final and semi-final place. 

Southgate would probably be out of the job if we had faced a France, Belgium or Portugal in the last 16 of any of those tournaments.

Edited October 17, 2023 by Bris Vegas

[roboto]

42 minutes ago, Marriot Ram99 said:

Serie A isn't that good you have to look at the draw those teams had, beating someone like Benfica isn't a real tough test compared to Real Madrid or Bayern. Honestly nobody is that good, Arsenal could win the f****** champions league honestly because bar City,Madrid(iffy defence with Joselu upfront), and Bayern maybe.. nobody is that good. Relative to the 2010s the standard is very weak now especially in defence.

So the Champions League is weak now? What is a competition we should judge the top players who play in Europe by?

Arsenal actually have a very good team, their weakness last year was strength in depth, which they haven't really fixed in defence with the long term injury to Timber. I would say La Liga standard is worse than Serie A currently, with Bundesliga closely in 4th place. These are the top leagues in the world still and anyone who can compete at the top end of them and have an impact for a big team (Tomori) is worth more than someone who can't even get in a team ahead of someone filling in in their secondary position.

Maguire hasn't let Southgate down. He has been at fault for goals England have conceded recently, but one player doesn't make a team. Southgate needs to be giving the players a chance that have earned a call up through their recent performances, otherwise we get to a point where a whole load of players retire and we have a bunch of players who haven't got the required international experience trying to gel as a team.

[Andicis]

Maguire and Phillips starting again. Southgate will never learn.

[Marriot Ram99]

1 hour ago, roboto said:

So the Champions League is weak now? What is a competition we should judge the top players who play in Europe by?

Arsenal actually have a very good team, their weakness last year was strength in depth, which they haven't really fixed in defence with the long term injury to Timber. I would say La Liga standard is worse than Serie A currently, with Bundesliga closely in 4th place. These are the top leagues in the world still and anyone who can compete at the top end of them and have an impact for a big team (Tomori) is worth more than someone who can't even get in a team ahead of someone filling in in their secondary position.

Maguire hasn't let Southgate down. He has been at fault for goals England have conceded recently, but one player doesn't make a team. Southgate needs to be giving the players a chance that have earned a call up through their recent performances, otherwise we get to a point where a whole load of players retire and we have a bunch of players who haven't got the required international experience trying to gel as a team.

Oh I am not disagreeing om Tomori but what I am saying is none of the teams are that good and I mean anyteam in the world bar Man City, I mean as in top elite. You can see what I mean, even Real Madrid have Joselu upfront and a weak defence. Bayern have a weak defence ,  there isn't wingers around like Neymar,Robben ,Ribery, prime Bale like true elite. When there are less teams with that quality it means everything is up for grabs because there isn't as much standout like a Prime Real Madird, Prime Bayern ect.

Champions league is not that high level until the quarter finals imo just added pressure from prestige of the tournament, Prem level is that high that games like Benfica away or Dortmund away shouldn't be that hard really for a side like Newcastle or Tottenham if they were in it.

The standard of the top players is just way lower imo upfront and in defence, I am young so I'm not saying this as someone with nostalgia necessarily. Just how it is, it's more system based and methodical now and less individual quality and class goals.

Edited October 17, 2023 by Marriot Ram99

[Marriot Ram99]

I knew he would play Maguire and Phillips was an obvious move from him, actually happy with front 3 though.  Hope Maguire scores an own goal as bad as that sounds ,but we still win. Sick of seeing him in the England team and sick of hearing about him, he should no way be in over Dunk.Only way he doesn't play going forward is he has a beast of a game, don't want him destroying England's chances next summer after starting 5 games all season for Man U.

Edited October 17, 2023 by Marriot Ram99

[cannable]

Quite like Channel 4’s coverage. A bit dafter, more light hearted, fun. Getting John Stones and James Maddison to play Carrot in a Box.

James Richardson doing a tiny Football Italia segment. 

It’s only a game, after all.