V Shrewsbury Town (H) 4th March 15.00

[DavesaRam]

3 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said:

Dunno what to say. If each of our players made fewer errors than the ref we’d usually win. To err is human. The idea it’s a conspiracy is a paranoid aberration 

OK> So when Rooney just about gets two hands on the back of the Shrewsbury player, its a peno. Probably quite rightly. But when Dobbin was pushed two-handed at the other end of the pitch, it isn't a peno. And when a Shrewsbury handles the ball in the area with both hands, it isn't a peno. Or Didzy commits a "professional" foul, the ref plays advantage, and when the ball next goes out of play, he shows a card to Didzy. Quite correctly. Then later in the match, Smith is bringing the ball out of defence and is completely wiped out by a Shrewsbury player. The ref plays advantage, but then does absolutely nothing about the foul. Are you beginning to see a pattern? And this goes on match after match after match. As I have already said, if this happened on the odd occasion, and affected both teams equally, there would not be a problem. But it doesn't. How many matches can you honestly say the we got the majority of the refereeing decisions in our favour?

And never mind getting a peno against us for light hand contact, how many absolute stonewall penalties have been seen turned down for Derby? (You will need a lot of fingers for that one).

[Ram-Alf]

16 minutes ago, Wayne1306 said:

Angela, I hope this comes through, better view. Clear pen for me.

Christ on a bike, From that view it's a Penalty, From Angie's clip it's not a penalty  

[DavesaRam]

5 hours ago, Tyler Durden said:

It was the guy on the grassy knoll actually not Rick Parry.

Rookie error when it comes to paranoid conspiracy theories 

We don't have a grassy knoll at Pride Park. That would be at the old Baseball Ground pitch! 

[Tyler Durden]

2 hours ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Textbook 'nothing to see here folks' reply this

To recap - I've provided a summary of Warne's record against sides in both halves of the table to get some detail behind the 4 losses in 25 games stat. This clearly shows the vast majority of his points are won against lower half teams & that this is flattering his record.

In reply, you've;

• Reacted with a laughing emoji to my post - after all, what kind of idiot uses logic & stats to back up his argument?!!
• Disingenuously missed the point about record v top half teams compared to bottom half teams. I did clearly mention in my post you might expect a better record against lesser sides. The point however is would you expect a team looking to finish top 6 to average less than 1 point a game against top half teams? That's relegation form but then you probably realised that awkward truth
• Suggested I might be 'starting to say that our head to head record against the top 6' will determine whether we make top 6. Which I didn't say & clearly didn't mean. Nice strawman though

For the avoidance of doubt, if we get a result at Plymouth Tuesday night I will a) be delighted & b) it may start to make me question my impression of Warne & his managerial ability. This is how to use evidence to support a position - in direct contrast to your desperate attempts to obfuscate/belittle opinions that differ to yours because you backed Warne from Day 1 & now your ego is very much attached to that position.

I've probably missed your point then - what was it other then to say unsurprisingly we have a worse record against the teams in the bottom half of the table then the top half - as you rightly say no news here or no poo Sherlock - was never questioning the validity of the data, more where are you going with it? 

If you were just saying it for the sake of saying it fair enough, or were you saying that we should have a better record against the higher teams in the league therefore by implication we should be higher in the league given our record against the lower teams ergo Warne has underperformed with the resources he has available to him?

Anyhows as one of my old bosses used to say rather then spend an hour identifying a problem what's the solution?

Warne is on a 4 year contract, unless he reads your posts on this board then he ain't going to be particularly arsed what stats you trot out,  other than carry on supporting your team which I'm sure you will this just seems an opportunity for you (and others) to naysay if or when we lose in the playoffs to say I told you so. 

 

 

[Ramarena]

50 minutes ago, angieram said:

As I didn't see the incident clearly, when did Rooney clearly put two hands in Leahy's back? Was it before this footage started? 

Because in this clip he doesn't seem to make contact at all. He only puts his hands out when he starts to fall at the end. If anything, Leahy is fouling Fozzy.

 

Good spot Angie, I mentioned this during the game on here, at the time it looked like there was minimal contact, but Rooney’s arms were outstretched.

Another dodgy peno against and sadly yesterdays ref was itching to give them something.

Im surprised he didn’t send Cashin off for the clash of heads. He looked like he was considering it by rummaging in his pocket whilst they were being treated.

[DavesaRam]

54 minutes ago, angieram said:

As I didn't see the incident clearly, when did Rooney clearly put two hands in Leahy's back? Was it before this footage started? 

Because in this clip he doesn't seem to make contact at all. He only puts his hands out when he starts to fall at the end. If anything, Leahy is fouling Fozzy.

 

Wow! An absolute eye-opener! And because there is no such thing as a conspiracy, the ref must be an absolute nob to have given a peno for that!

[Guest]

5 hours ago, LeedsCityRam said:

OK, lets apply some context to that particular stat.

The reality is Derby are flat track bullies under Warne - we fill our boots against the minnows of this division by utilising quality players that 20 other clubs in this division could only dream of fielding but when we play anyone in the top half, our record is particularly poor. Remember we're not talking exclusively top 6 sides with these massive squads that you seem to believe Warne is bravely competing against but also includes the llkes of Lincoln, Exeter & Shrewsbury, all non-league sides in recent memory.

The situation after 25 league games under Warne is as follows;

 

Even if you accept that you're more likely to get better results against lesser sides than better sides, that is a staggering mismatch & highlights that Warne's record is embellished by the paucity of opposition he has faced as manager. It also does not bode well for the playoffs, should we make them.

The record against top half sides suggests that Warne is struggling to engineer results against better organised & well resourced teams - this is where tactical nous & proper use of his squad is essential. There is much discussion about the squad but the reality is Curtis Davies, Sibley (in his right position), Liam Thompson, Jake Rooney (until yesterday) & Tony Springett are not being used to any extent at all - this makes no sense given the style of play & energy levels needed to employ that style. I don't accept these players are a significant step down in quality from the first XI.

Warne has a very functional & predictable style of play where he is heavily reliant on the individual parts of his team rather than the sum being greater than the parts - that is going to come unstuck against better teams & is borne out by both the results so far this season & his record with Rotherham in the Championship. To return to your quote, that is why some of us have significant reservations about him.

If we apply some context LCR I think your conclusion that the reality is Derby are flat track bullies under Paul Warne is skewed in favour of you supporting an argument against Paul Warne being the right manager for Derby County. Where a team finishes in Division One at the end of a season depends upon how many points the team wins in its 46 games against the other 23 clubs and the number of points gained against teams in the top or bottom halves of the table has never been a deciding factor to differentiate whether one team or another will be promoted.

Under Leroy Rosenior Derby took 14 points from 9 games (1.6 pts per game). Five of Leroy's games were against top half teams - four at home. Under Warne they have so far taken 47 points from 25 games (1.9 pts per game).

Sheffield Wednesday have taken 50 points from 18 games against lower-half teams and 24 points from 15 games against top-half teams.

Plymouth; 34 pts from 17 games against LH and 37 pts from 17 games against TH.

Ipswich; 44 pts from 19 games against LH and 22 pts from 15 games against TH.

Bolton; 37 pts from 18 games against LH and 26 pts from 18 games against TH.

Barnsley; 39 pts from 17 games against LH and 21 pts from 15 games against TH.

Derby; 42 pts from 18 games against LH and 19 pts from 17 games against TH.

So, from the top six teams, to my mind only Plymouth really stand out in terms of the equilibrium they have achieved in terms of the distribution of their points accumulated against teams in the top and bottom halves of the table. I have no doubt that their fans will be critical that they have not picked up more points against the lower teams. But there is nothing unusual in the fact that the other five teams, including Derby, have fared better against lower opposition.

As for bullies, I seem to recall that a lot of our fans were critical in that 5 of our 6 defeats, we allowed the opposition to bully us physically - against Plymouth, Lincoln, Port Vale, Wycombe and Barnsley. When Warne has the opportunity to recruit players of his own choice, he will probably be looking to ensure that is more unlikely to happen in the future.

At the end of the day we are where we are, the table does not lie and we don't get bonus points for beating teams in the top half.

 

 

[angieram]

27 minutes ago, The Last Post said:

Christ on a bike, From that view it's a Penalty, From Angie's clip it's not a penalty  

So confusing, isn't it? 

Who'd be a referee? ??‍♀️

[sage]

It was a penalty. Soft because there was no need for it, but a 2 handed push in the back is a foul.. 

[Jourdan]

2 hours ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Textbook 'nothing to see here folks' reply this

To recap - I've provided a summary of Warne's record against sides in both halves of the table to get some detail behind the 4 losses in 25 games stat. This clearly shows the vast majority of his points are won against lower half teams & that this is flattering his record.

In reply, you've;

• Reacted with a laughing emoji to my post - after all, what kind of idiot uses logic & stats to back up his argument?!!
• Disingenuously missed the point about record v top half teams compared to bottom half teams. I did clearly mention in my post you might expect a better record against lesser sides. The point however is would you expect a team looking to finish top 6 to average less than 1 point a game against top half teams? That's relegation form but then you probably realised that awkward truth
• Suggested I might be 'starting to say that our head to head record against the top 6' will determine whether we make top 6. Which I didn't say & clearly didn't mean. Nice strawman though

For the avoidance of doubt, if we get a result at Plymouth Tuesday night I will a) be delighted & b) it may start to make me question my impression of Warne & his managerial ability. This is how to use evidence to support a position - in direct contrast to your desperate attempts to obfuscate/belittle opinions that differ to yours because you backed Warne from Day 1 & now your ego is very much attached to that position.

I don’t get this argument. It’s nothing unusual to have a stronger record v weaker opposition. In fact, it’s what the majority of successful campaigns are built upon. See @Brailsford Ram’s previous post.

Three points are three points. You don’t get any extra for beating the team in 3rd than you do for beating the team in 23rd.

It’s also especially difficult to understand because all of our games against top opposition have been decided by fine margins. One or two mistakes can make the difference. Sometimes we have fallen on the wrong side of it and sometimes on the right side. That’s football.

If we had been routinely well beaten by top sides, fair enough, it may point to an alarming pattern. But across the season, many games we’ve had have been competitive and could have gone either way, with wins you could argue we didn’t deserve and losses we didn’t deserve and so on.

It could be something, it could be nothing. We could lose v Plymouth but then beat Ipswich and Peterborough. That’s been the nature of our season.

Also, when it comes to the play-offs, we all know that what happens previously in the league goes out of the window and has little to no bearing. Everyone describes it as unpredictable and a lottery for that exact reason.

As long as we finish in the top six, we have as good a chance as anyone. Most posters are saying that the time to criticise Warne is when that doesn’t happen.

Given his track record, if it does not happen this year, there is still cause to feel confident we’ll come back and give it a good go next season. 

[Jimbo Ram]

2 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Do you understand what unconscious bias is?

I never said anything about a conspiracy or instructions from the EFL.

When referred to as a club which cheats, that will inevitably sit in the back of a person's mind. This WILL impact the decisions a ref makes during a game.

Don’t buy it…

[Ramarena]

One other thing that happened that I’ve only seen @CBRammette mention so far is their players deliberate trip on Wildsmith from behind.

Wildsmith came and collected ahead of the player who stopped behind Wildsmith. 

Wildsmith then started looking at his options and stepping forward, the Shrew then blatantly kicked Wildsmith’s trailing leg, bringing him down. 

What did the ref do?

You guessed it……….he told Wildsmith to stop play acting and get up.

[Blondest Goat]

2 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Do you understand what unconscious bias is?

Yes.  I just don't agree that it is a factor here.  We were done for breach of FFP, nothing to do with any cheating on the pitch.  

[OssieEnd]

2 hours ago, HorsforthRam said:

For some posters there seems to be an under current of wariness with regards to PW style of play and his tactical abilities. Others seem to believe that his knowledge of this division means he knows a certain style of play is required to get out of it. Are the likes of Plymouth and Wednesday playing like PW’s Rotherham did when they got promoted?   

Is it more a case of .. what were you expecting from this season ?

 

 

I'm very happy. 

[DavesaRam]

27 minutes ago, Ramarena said:

One other thing that happened that I’ve only seen @CBRammette mention so far is their players deliberate trip on Wildsmith from behind.

Wildsmith came and collected ahead of the player who stopped behind Wildsmith. 

Wildsmith then started looking at his options and stepping forward, the Shrew then blatantly kicked Wildsmith’s trailing leg, bringing him down. 

What did the ref do?

You guessed it……….he told Wildsmith to stop play acting and get up.

Yes. But at least he can't possibly have conspired to trip Wildsmith up. 

[Ram-Alf]

39 minutes ago, angieram said:

So confusing, isn't it? 

Who'd be a referee? ??‍♀️

From my seat in the South West upper...it looked a penalty to us, From the Sky Sports highlights it looked a penalty, From your post...and I froze it time after time and just got a shot where Rooneys left hand is touching the player, I couldn't see the Dobbin incident as too far away.

Now this is a guess mind, Rooney did touch the player but not enough for him to set off like a V2 rocket but I can see how the Ref gave the penalty.

That player needs to be called Baldrick...as he had a cunning plan to con the Ref or gamesmanship as is often the term?...and did what all players do worldwide when trying to gain an advantage?

 

[Alty_Ram]

At half time though we're deservedly 2 up and could and probably should have been more - McGoldrick's has an all but free header. We then come out for 2nd half and they are much more lively but we give them a soft way back in when Fozzy gets robbed and they rode the momentum of that so fair play to them - when someone leaves the door open you step right through. We then followed by a needless decision to make for a penalty and it felt like Plymouth at home deja vu.

I genuinely don't think that if we keep it steady for the first 15 mins of the 2nd half that they find any way back into that though. The goal totally changes the game and we were inviting it by being sluggish and careless.

[Rich3478]

Yeah the idea that refs and the efl have an active conspiracy against us game by game is getting a bit silly. Refs are just poor, sometimes for us and sometimes against.

bottom line is standards have dropped a bit over the last month, that’s why have fallen off slightly. Whether that’s tiredness or a quality issue the main debate.

don’t think we’re one of the best two sides in the division so is hard to think we should be getting automatic. Let’s finish strong and have a go at the play offs. Next season needs to be all out push for top two though.

[OssieEnd]

Before this season started . We had no club. 

Let's just get some perspective. To be where we are just now ... wow ... I'm so happy with that ! 

 

We will be in the Play offs .. 

[Premier ram]

My seat is in the North Stand , clearest penalty for me yesterday was the handball near the end of the game by a Shrews defender , the look on his face afterwards was of sheer relief when pen wasnt given , how the officials missed it i will never know

 

                                                 maybe close to the reason