Is "woke" confusing kids

[ariotofmyown]

2 hours ago, Archied said:

Is it not good to hear everyone’s opinions on the subject? 
would kids be allowed to turn up at school with face piercing s ? 
personally I do believe there’s a bit of a switch going on where children an being taught what to think rather than how to think 

 

Of course it's good to hear everyone's opinions. There have been loads of opinions already on this thread, presented sensitively and thoughfully. When someone comes in all extreme and offensive, the nature of the thread quickly changes and an important conversion can quickly disappear. I may have been guilty of this in the past, and I also should just have ignored the said posters 2nd attempt, like I did the 1st.

[ariotofmyown]

1 hour ago, GboroRam said:

I hear this kind of thing repeated regularly, but it isn't my experience. I've got 5 children in 4 different schools, and I don't know where that idea comes from. Of course there's a more open, tolerant approach to diversity, but does anyone think that the atrocious attitudes towards anyone who stood out as a bit different in "the good old days" were the way to deal with it? Children clearly trapped in an identity struggle, unable to express themselves for fear of being mocked. We were ruthless towards anyone who didn't fit in. That's no longer the case. 

The only time I've known a school set expectations about a child's views and/or opinions was regarding a child who was beginning to show racist and homophobic views openly, and a video circulated with him throwing a nazi salute. This has been treated as highly serious, as he's a radicalisation risk. And if school ignored it, we'd all be up in arms at the handling of it. 

It feels unnatural to allow young children to explore these boundaries, sexuality and self identity. But I'm sure young children throughout time have felt confused, alienated and different because they don't fit the societal norms. It's just become easier to talk about it in modern times, and these children can look at popular culture and see others who are able to go against the norm without being a pariah. If it's handled sensitively, I think it's not a big problem. 

A woman at work about 40 said how her first realisation of racism was when she was about 7 at school in Nottingham. She is mixed race and she told her teacher that a boy (white) had done something naughty. The teachers replied with "look at him, then look at you, who do you think I'm going to believe?"

[Scott129]

11 hours ago, Normanton Lad said:

It is well over half a century since I left school but by some freak of nature I still have children at school. I know what is going on in schools today. Teachers are commissars. They are instructing children on how they should think and behave in accordance with government guidelines. Any teacher who goes against the current woke zeitgeist is punished. For example, if they said a man cannot become a woman for obvious genetic reasons then they would be harassed and publicly humiliated. If a teacher today expressed the political and social views of an average person of my age they would probably be arrested as well as being sacked.

This summer I was walking through the park with my youngest son and we passed a heavily tattooed woman with a crewcut and half a ton of metal work on a face like a bulldog chewing a wasp. When she passed my son said she was a teacher at his school and she was "transitioning". When I was at school such a person would not have been allowed to teach. She would not have been regarded as someone who could be trusted to pass on the social norms required by the government of the day. Teachers have always been agents of the government.
 

Societal norms are constantly evolving and changing. So why would they teach the youngsters of today what would be considered 'normal' 50-odd years ago?

I bet that, when you were a youngster, there was also stuff that your parents thought was totally outrageous too.

[Stive Pesley]

1 hour ago, Archied said:

for me where we are at the moment is a scenario where we are pushing children much too young to question they’re identity rather than having an environment where children who are questioning they’re identity

I have a few friends who are teachers and from conversations with them, plus what I've seen at school - it's completely the latter that goes on. They are trying to teach kids to be tolerant and that everyone is not the same, and that if you feel different then that's OK. It's much better to grow up in a tolerant society that let's you live your life in peace, than grow up scared and confused? 

But the way some elements of the media portray it - you'd think they were forcing kids to change gender on a whim, simply by telling them about it. It's like the old Clause 28 thing in the 80s. This idea that you could turn kids gay simply by openly teaching them that "being gay" was a thing. Thankfully we've progressed as a society and we've realised that  not talking about homosexuality doesn't stop people being homosexual. 

I guess the problem is that if you teach kids about it, they will question themselves - but that's a good thing no? Surely an important part of growing up. 

10 hours ago, YouRams said:

have a teenage daughter who at 11 decided she likes girls before doing a uturn and having a boyfriend, don't know which one I was more alarmed about! And a brother/sister in law thats a boy but now wants to be called by a girl's name and wears make up. The common denominator... they're both glued to TikTok. I'll leave it at that on my views.

Change the time frame to the 70s and replace TikTok with David Bowie on Top Of The Pops. Parents were saying the exact same thing

Kids just want to figure themselves out, via whatever means available. How many "it's just a phase"s did we all have as  kids? 

My biggest worry is that everything is online these days, so whereas those days I wore black eyeliner to a nightclub are long forgotten - kids are leaving a trail of evidence online behind them of all their experimental ideas

[Archied]

1 hour ago, ariotofmyown said:

Of course it's good to hear everyone's opinions. There have been loads of opinions already on this thread, presented sensitively and thoughfully. When someone comes in all extreme and offensive, the nature of the thread quickly changes and an important conversion can quickly disappear. I may have been guilty of this in the past, and I also should just have ignored the said posters 2nd attempt, like I did the 1st.

Honestly? I think this really comes down to each persons starting point and how we come across , do we manage to express our opinion easily if we have strong held views , sometimes it’s hard to say stuff in a way that others find sensitive enough but still manage to say what you really feel ,

I didn’t find the poster extreme or offensive and would still engage with them as I find myself ( starting point ) somewhere between what he’s trying to say and perhaps you and a few others , this is a written forum not a situation where you can sit down , look someone in the eye , speak and listen and get a decent gauge of what you feel people are really about , im guilty of it myself at times and have to work hard at times not to let myself think certain people are just xxxxxs, 

I can honestly say there’s people on here I give it to at times and they give it too but there’s not one I totaly dismiss or look down on , I can be going at it with them one minute and the next find I’m giving one of they’re posts a like or getting a like on one of my posts from them 

[Archied]

1 hour ago, ariotofmyown said:

A woman at work about 40 said how her first realisation of racism was when she was about 7 at school in Nottingham. She is mixed race and she told her teacher that a boy (white) had done something naughty. The teachers replied with "look at him, then look at you, who do you think I'm going to believe?"

Can you show me a single person on here that would not find the above heartbreaking and disgusting? I can’t and I don’t know anyone in my real life circle either because if I did they would be gone from my circle quick smart ,

I’ve always been that way even way back when it was hard to not go along with that kind of shxt, thank Christ those days are long gone though a lot of todays easy street hero’s have no clue that lots of decent people took a stand when it wasn’t easy

[Archied]

52 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

I have a few friends who are teachers and from conversations with them, plus what I've seen at school - it's completely the latter that goes on. They are trying to teach kids to be tolerant and that everyone is not the same, and that if you feel different then that's OK. It's much better to grow up in a tolerant society that let's you live your life in peace, than grow up scared and confused? 

But the way some elements of the media portray it - you'd think they were forcing kids to change gender on a whim, simply by telling them about it. It's like the old Clause 28 thing in the 80s. This idea that you could turn kids gay simply by openly teaching them that "being gay" was a thing. Thankfully we've progressed as a society and we've realised that  not talking about homosexuality doesn't stop people being homosexual. 

I guess the problem is that if you teach kids about it, they will question themselves - but that's a good thing no? Surely an important part of growing up. 

Change the time frame to the 70s and replace TikTok with David Bowie on Top Of The Pops. Parents were saying the exact same thing

Kids just want to figure themselves out, via whatever means available. How many "it's just a phase"s did we all have as  kids? 

My biggest worry is that everything is online these days, so whereas those days I wore black eyeliner to a nightclub are long forgotten - kids are leaving a trail of evidence online behind them of all their experimental ideas

I’m glad you bring up the issue of gay as I believe it’s a sensitive area and we are starting to see how difficult it is to figure whether someone so young is gay and will grow live a happy life in the body they were born in or need to be going down the path of gender issues which if got wrong can be irreversible and very damaging , 100% this whole gender area / issue is very difficult and we need to be aware of the majority not just the minority, at the end of the day in my view the aim should be to enable the most people we can to grow and lead the happiest lives they can, im honestly not sure that how this issue is being handled at the moment will achieve that any more than how it’s been handled in the past did ,, granted it’s better in many ways but to believe there are no real pitfalls is wrong in my opinion 

[ariotofmyown]

1 hour ago, Archied said:

Can you show me a single person on here that would not find the above heartbreaking and disgusting? I can’t and I don’t know anyone in my real life circle either because if I did they would be gone from my circle quick smart ,

I’ve always been that way even way back when it was hard to not go along with that kind of shxt, thank Christ those days are long gone though a lot of todays easy street hero’s have no clue that lots of decent people took a stand when it wasn’t easy

I certainly hope everyone would find it disgusting in today's world. I mentioned it as a addition to @GboroRams post about the good old days. I'm sure a similar thread back on here in the mid-80s would have people saying "well you can't trust them can you, because [insert anecdote about one time they knew a non-white person doing something bad]."

Edited January 30, 2023 by ariotofmyown

[Stive Pesley]

There are probably also further equivalencies to be drawn around teaching kids at a young age about sex education and contraception

I remember my parents being horrified that it was being talked about and taught openly in our school - I guess they thought it would turn us all in to a bunch of out of control shaggers ( I wished!).  Seemingly oblivious to the fact that my mum's own father was the product of an under-age pregnancy circa 1912 which completely changed the life of his mother (for the worse) which was purely down to a lack of education

We just have to speak honestly to kids and equip them with the facts and let them figure it out for themselves. 

[Normanton Lad]

5 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

A woman at work about 40 said how her first realisation of racism was when she was about 7 at school in Nottingham. She is mixed race and she told her teacher that a boy (white) had done something naughty. The teachers replied with "look at him, then look at you, who do you think I'm going to believe?"

Someone on here said everyone here would find the above "heart breaking and disgusting". 

I don’t find it “heart breaking and disgusting” because I don’t believe a seven year old child would remember a teacher saying that. I think it is probably a false memory. We have very few accurate memories from that age. Also the question the teacher supposedly asked the child with its unstated implication would probably be too difficult for a seven year old to understand. A developmental psychologist would probably say that the child would require "Higher order theory of mind" to get the sarcasm in that question.  "Higher order theory of mind" only kicks in after about the age of eight.

I’m afraid most people are gullible. They believe what they read in the papers and what they are told on TV or on the radio. Some of them even think the government cares about them. You can’t just believe something because someone tells you it is true. You need evidence and you need to use critical reasoning.

I’m not saying everyone is a liar but I do think people tell you things for a reason. Perhaps they want to you feel sorry for them. Perhaps they want to sell you something or get you into bed. Whatever the reason, you have ask yourself why are they telling you this. You could ask why am I writing this. What is my objective? My answer is that it a weakness in old people that they like to give advice. Even though this advice is often unwelcome advice and possibly wrong we can’t stop doing it. It is connected to the fact that most old people stop feeling self-conscious and they will start conversations with strangers in a way that would never have done when they were younger.

[AndyinLiverpool]

28 minutes ago, Normanton Lad said:

Someone on here said everyone here would find the above "heart breaking and disgusting". 

I don’t find it “heart breaking and disgusting” because I don’t believe a seven year old child would remember a teacher saying that. I think it is probably a false memory. We have very few accurate memories from that age. Also the question the teacher supposedly asked the child with its unstated implication would probably be too difficult for a seven year old to understand. A developmental psychologist would probably say that the child would require "Higher order theory of mind" to get the sarcasm in that question.  "Higher order theory of mind" only kicks in after about the age of eight.

I’m afraid most people are gullible. They believe what they read in the papers and what they are told on TV or on the radio. Some of them even think the government cares about them. You can’t just believe something because someone tells you it is true. You need evidence and you need to use critical reasoning.

I’m not saying everyone is a liar but I do think people tell you things for a reason. Perhaps they want to you feel sorry for them. Perhaps they want to sell you something or get you into bed. Whatever the reason, you have ask yourself why are they telling you this. You could ask why am I writing this. What is my objective? My answer is that it a weakness in old people that they like to give advice. Even though this advice is often unwelcome advice and possibly wrong we can’t stop doing it. It is connected to the fact that most old people stop feeling self-conscious and they will start conversations with strangers in a way that would never have done when they were younger.

This is the most depressingly cynical thing I've read on this forum for quite a while.

[ariotofmyown]

28 minutes ago, Normanton Lad said:

Someone on here said everyone here would find the above "heart breaking and disgusting". 

I don’t find it “heart breaking and disgusting” because I don’t believe a seven year old child would remember a teacher saying that. I think it is probably a false memory. We have very few accurate memories from that age. Also the question the teacher supposedly asked the child with its unstated implication would probably be too difficult for a seven year old to understand. A developmental psychologist would probably say that the child would require "Higher order theory of mind" to get the sarcasm in that question.  "Higher order theory of mind" only kicks in after about the age of eight.

I’m afraid most people are gullible. They believe what they read in the papers and what they are told on TV or on the radio. Some of them even think the government cares about them. You can’t just believe something because someone tells you it is true. You need evidence and you need to use critical reasoning.

I’m not saying everyone is a liar but I do think people tell you things for a reason. Perhaps they want to you feel sorry for them. Perhaps they want to sell you something or get you into bed. Whatever the reason, you have ask yourself why are they telling you this. You could ask why am I writing this. What is my objective? My answer is that it a weakness in old people that they like to give advice. Even though this advice is often unwelcome advice and possibly wrong we can’t stop doing it. It is connected to the fact that most old people stop feeling self-conscious and they will start conversations with strangers in a way that would never have done when they were younger.

Well, there was at session at work where black and mixed race colleagues talked openly about predjuices they havs faced and one of the questions was when did they first become conscious of racism. Shame you weren't there, but sounds like you know it all anyway.

I also don't think you really understand was sarcasm is.

[Comrade 86]

45 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

Well, there was at session at work where black and mixed race colleagues talked openly about predjuices they havs faced and one of the questions was when did they first become conscious of racism. Shame you weren't there, but sounds like you know it all anyway.

I also don't think you really understand was sarcasm is.

In fairness, until I was nearly 9, every time a teacher asked me a question I'd answer 'because Johnny called me a n***** miss!', even if I'd only been asked 'what is the capital of Spain', or such like. You see I'd not developed a higher order of emotional consciousness at that point and even questions like, 'what would you like for tea' would trigger memories I'd never had. I was nearly 19 before I realised I'd not really wrestled space lizards on Mars. 

[Archied]

This thread is going somewhere above my pay grade and at the same time below where I want to go ,that’s for sure??‍♂️

Edited January 30, 2023 by Archied

[Normanton Lad]

19 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

Well, there was at session at work where black and mixed race colleagues talked openly about predjuices they havs faced and one of the questions was when did they first become conscious of racism. Shame you weren't there, but sounds like you know it all anyway.

That session you attended where non-white people complained about white people was very unfair to you. Was there a similar session where a non-white person had to listen to white people complaining about non-white people? I have been racially insulted by black people but I don’t regard black people in general as being prejudiced. Wherever you go you will get people who will insult you. You can’t blame whole racial groups for the actions of individuals.

We should be treated as individuals. You shouldn’t feel guilt or shame, or be put in a session where someone tries to make you feel guilt or shame, for something that had nothing to do with you as an individual. 

I have been attacked on this thread for saying that if someone makes a claim you shouldn’t just accept it as truth. I care about truth. The woman’s story about the cruel teacher seemed very unlikely to me for three reasons. First, it was a very cruel thing for a teacher to say and in my experience I have never known teachers who would act that way. Secondly, what the teacher said would be a very difficult thing for a child of seven to understand. The teacher is expecting the child to know that the teacher assesses the truth value of rival claims using her background knowledge. Furthermore, the teacher is expecting the child to know that her background knowledge tells her to always believe the white kid rather than the black kid. Thirdly, we have very few if any genuine memories from the age of seven. I can’t remember a single thing from my seventh year and I am a person who spends a lot of time thinking about the past. 

It is possible that the woman is telling truth but I don’t feel guilty for not believing her. If I was accused of a crime where all the evidence pointed to my guilt even though I wasn’t guilty I would just accept my punishment as bad luck. I wouldn’t run around screaming about the unfairness of the world. Absolute truth is a thing but people are not omniscient and we have to we have to rely on what the evidence tells us.
 

[Stive Pesley]

1 hour ago, Normanton Lad said:

Wherever you go you will get people who will insult you

I imagine that you suffer from this more than most? ?

[Archied]

3 hours ago, Normanton Lad said:

That session you attended where non-white people complained about white people was very unfair to you. Was there a similar session where a non-white person had to listen to white people complaining about non-white people? I have been racially insulted by black people but I don’t regard black people in general as being prejudiced. Wherever you go you will get people who will insult you. You can’t blame whole racial groups for the actions of individuals.

We should be treated as individuals. You shouldn’t feel guilt or shame, or be put in a session where someone tries to make you feel guilt or shame, for something that had nothing to do with you as an individual. 

I have been attacked on this thread for saying that if someone makes a claim you shouldn’t just accept it as truth. I care about truth. The woman’s story about the cruel teacher seemed very unlikely to me for three reasons. First, it was a very cruel thing for a teacher to say and in my experience I have never known teachers who would act that way. Secondly, what the teacher said would be a very difficult thing for a child of seven to understand. The teacher is expecting the child to know that the teacher assesses the truth value of rival claims using her background knowledge. Furthermore, the teacher is expecting the child to know that her background knowledge tells her to always believe the white kid rather than the black kid. Thirdly, we have very few if any genuine memories from the age of seven. I can’t remember a single thing from my seventh year and I am a person who spends a lot of time thinking about the past. 

It is possible that the woman is telling truth but I don’t feel guilty for not believing her. If I was accused of a crime where all the evidence pointed to my guilt even though I wasn’t guilty I would just accept my punishment as bad luck. I wouldn’t run around screaming about the unfairness of the world. Absolute truth is a thing but people are not omniscient and we have to we have to rely on what the evidence tells us.
 

I don’t understand why your being ganged up on ,,,,,, that’s my role??‍♂️

[Comrade 86]

4 hours ago, Normanton Lad said:

That session you attended where non-white people complained about white people was very unfair to you. Was there a similar session where a non-white person had to listen to white people complaining about non-white people? I have been racially insulted by black people but I don’t regard black people in general as being prejudiced. Wherever you go you will get people who will insult you. You can’t blame whole racial groups for the actions of individuals.

We should be treated as individuals. You shouldn’t feel guilt or shame, or be put in a session where someone tries to make you feel guilt or shame, for something that had nothing to do with you as an individual. 

I have been attacked on this thread for saying that if someone makes a claim you shouldn’t just accept it as truth. I care about truth. The woman’s story about the cruel teacher seemed very unlikely to me for three reasons. First, it was a very cruel thing for a teacher to say and in my experience I have never known teachers who would act that way. Secondly, what the teacher said would be a very difficult thing for a child of seven to understand. The teacher is expecting the child to know that the teacher assesses the truth value of rival claims using her background knowledge. Furthermore, the teacher is expecting the child to know that her background knowledge tells her to always believe the white kid rather than the black kid. Thirdly, we have very few if any genuine memories from the age of seven. I can’t remember a single thing from my seventh year and I am a person who spends a lot of time thinking about the past. 

It is possible that the woman is telling truth but I don’t feel guilty for not believing her. If I was accused of a crime where all the evidence pointed to my guilt even though I wasn’t guilty I would just accept my punishment as bad luck. I wouldn’t run around screaming about the unfairness of the world. Absolute truth is a thing but people are not omniscient and we have to we have to rely on what the evidence tells us.
 

Hilarious that you've not only missed @ariotofmyown's point completely, but also found a way to be offended on his behalf, the colossal irony of which, does rather seem to have escaped your notice.

The balance of your post is one of the most bone-jarringly, asinine conclusions I have ever seen drawn on this forum. Folk construct strawman fallacies every day on these 'off-topic' threads, but yours, by any measure, is an absolute pearler.

[Normanton Lad]

3 hours ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

Hilarious that you've not only missed @ariotofmyown's point completely, but also found a way to be offended on his behalf, the colossal irony of which, does rather seem to have escaped your notice.

The balance of your post is one of the most bone-jarringly, asinine conclusions I have ever seen drawn on this forum. Folk construct strawman fallacies every day on these 'off-topic' threads, but yours, by any measure, is an absolute pearler.

There is no such thing a "folk construct strawman fallacy". That doesn’t mean anything. If you mean I have misrepresented his argument then I disagree. He used two stories to support his claim about racism. I have shown that the story about the teacher and the 7 year old is almost certainly not true. Do you think it is true? Be honest and don’t just revert to insults. The second story where he had to listen to complaints from non-whites presumably about whites strikes me as racist against him. It seems like an attempt to guilt trip him just because he was white. Did he have the opportunity to complain about non-white racism? If the “about forty year old woman” was one of the complainers would he have had the opportunity to question the truth of the story? I doubt it. I think that would also be classified as racism. In the current climate even questioning the truth of racism claims is proof of racism. 

Why did he come up with these two stories? Some would say he was angry about racism but I think he probably had an ulterior motive. He was signalling to fellow “wokies” on here that he a “good person” like them.  Nowadays it is called virtue signalling. I’ve not posted much on here about non-football topics because as a “non-wokie” I can see I am an interloper. Don’t bother rushing in with the insults because I’m just going to stick to threads of little interest to wokies. 
 

[RoyMac5]

1 hour ago, Normanton Lad said:

Why did he come up with these two stories? Some would say he was angry about racism but I think he probably had an ulterior motive. He was signalling to fellow “wokies” on here that he a “good person” like them.  Nowadays it is called virtue signalling. I’ve not posted much on here about non-football topics because as a “non-wokie” I can see I am an interloper. Don’t bother rushing in with the insults because I’m just going to stick to threads of little interest to wokies.