Freedom of Speech

[Stive Pesley]

7 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Not sure what your original point was then?

That the tech giants need to be more accountable for removing extreme content. 

 

 

[ariotofmyown]

49 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Is this like the other week when everyone was supposedly fuming about Joe Lycett but nobody could actually find anyone who was fuming about it at all?

The Daily Mail did have an outraged front page about Lycett. Doubt anyone else was outraged though as pretty much everyone would have agreed with him. The genius of his satire was that he simply just pretended to agree with Truss and support what she was saying.

[ariotofmyown]

50 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

For that behaviour to come from a teacher is pretty unforgivable. They are the people we entrust to educate our children 

Yes, but the teacher was a "Christian" who was following the teachings of Jesus: always try and offend people and be horrible to them, as opposed to offering love and compassion.

[G STAR RAM]

24 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

That the tech giants need to be more accountable for removing extreme content. 

But surely they must already be doing it if this mystery poster is calling it a left wing conspiracy?

[G STAR RAM]

14 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

The Daily Mail did have an outraged front page about Lycett. Doubt anyone else was outraged though as pretty much everyone would have agreed with him. The genius of his satire was that he simply just pretended to agree with Truss and support what she was saying.

But people who spend alot of time slating the Daily Mail then run with the headline and go on parroting how the right wing are all outraged...

[Stive Pesley]

1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said:

But surely they must already be doing it if this mystery poster is calling it a left wing conspiracy?

Yes - in my original post I pointed out that they do seem to make some attempt to police content that goes against their guidelines, but when they do remove homophobia, misogyny, racism etc they get called left-wing. No, I don't understand it either.  

 

[ariotofmyown]

1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said:

But people who spend alot of time slating the Daily Mail then run with the headline and go on parroting how the right wing are all outraged...

I'm glad to hear that the Mail is no longer the voice of the right wing.

[i-Ram]

19 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

I'm glad to hear that the Mail is no longer the voice of the right wing.

The Daily Mail's main target audience is lower-middle-class British women. Not too right wing then, unless you take the Guardian.

[uttoxram75]

8 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

The Daily Mail's main target audience is lower-middle-class British women. Not too right wing then, unless you take the Guardian.

I know its politics but I must point out that both the Mail and the Guardian both back politicians who want to privatise the NHS and reduce workers rights.

Just saying 

[Archied]

10 hours ago, Stive Pesley said:

You're so close to getting it. You're saying some good tolerant and respectful stuff there, so I don't know why you can't just take that last step and realise that it doesn't hurt you at all to respect people fully in the way that they prefer

Full disclosure, I have a non-binary member of my close family and they prefer the pronoun "they" - but they realise it's hard for us all to get it right all the time because we've had 25+ years of calling them "her". They don't kick off if we get it wrong. They don't even mention it, as long as we try. The problem comes when people use the wrong pronoun deliberately and to be antagonistic. Why would someone do that? It's just mean-spirited and horrible

For that behaviour to come from a teacher is pretty unforgivable. They are the people we entrust to educate our children 

 

 

I do get it and it’s a pretty stive thing to say that I don’t respect people fully , I say tolerant respectful things because that’s how I behave in life ,

Its you who doesn’t get it ,I’m sure there are people who disagree on principle with chosen pronouns and I don’t believe they should be forced to use them under threat of losing they’re job or having they’re lives ruined , is tolerance and respect only for those of your choosing? 

[Archied]

9 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

Yes, but the teacher was a "Christian" who was following the teachings of Jesus: always try and offend people and be horrible to them, as opposed to offering love and compassion.

Does that go two ways? Perhaps the teacher is in need of love and compassion? Perhaps he was brought up a certain way and has certain views of life that are at odds with yours ?

[ariotofmyown]

38 minutes ago, Archied said:

Does that go two ways? Perhaps the teacher is in need of love and compassion? Perhaps he was brought up a certain way and has certain views of life that are at odds with yours ?

The teacher definitely needs some compassion over such a pointless hill to die on. Whilst believing their stand to be part of some instruction from God, they are actually making Christianity just appear intolerant and bigoted. Like they've missed the central message of Christianity, although they are not the first!

[nottingram]

1 hour ago, Archied said:

I do get it and it’s a pretty stive thing to say that I don’t respect people fully , I say tolerant respectful things because that’s how I behave in life ,

Its you who doesn’t get it ,I’m sure there are people who disagree on principle with chosen pronouns and I don’t believe they should be forced to use them under threat of losing they’re job or having they’re lives ruined , is tolerance and respect only for those of your choosing? 

I think gender and pronouns is a really difficult subject as it’s very hard to understand and empathise with because the vast majority of people will simply never go through the same thing. But I don’t think it is a huge ask to change what one calls someone else if it is going to make them even 1% more comfortable in their own skin, especially at a school where the teacher has a duty of care to the student (although my point is more general than that).

Of course the teacher is going to slip up on occasion, they aren’t going to get it right every time as it goes against pretty much every instinct. But to do so deliberately just seems very cruel and damaging and I struggle to imagine it is truly in the name of religion. I didn’t really listen too much in Religion lessons at school but I certainly don’t remember any teachings about transphobia, I do however remember them about tolerance and respect.

I think there is a fine line between tolerating everybody’s views and tolerating someone’s intolerance and I would like to understand why someone “disagrees on principle” with making someone feel more comfortable about themselves. I doubt we’d accept homophobic or racist slurs used and I don’t think transphobia should be any different.

[Stive Pesley]

9 minutes ago, nottingram said:

I think gender and pronouns is a really difficult subject as it’s very hard to understand and empathise with because the vast majority of people will simply never go through the same thing. But I don’t think it is a huge ask to change what one calls someone else if it is going to make them even 1% more comfortable in their own skin, especially at a school where the teacher has a duty of care to the student (although my point is more general than that).

Of course the teacher is going to slip up on occasion, they aren’t going to get it right every time as it goes against pretty much every instinct. But to do so deliberately just seems very cruel and damaging and I struggle to imagine it is truly in the name of religion. I didn’t really listen too much in Religion lessons at school but I certainly don’t remember any teachings about transphobia, I do however remember them about tolerance and respect.

I think there is a fine line between tolerating everybody’s views and tolerating someone’s intolerance and I would like to understand why someone “disagrees on principle” with making someone feel more comfortable about themselves. I doubt we’d accept homophobic or racist slurs used and I don’t think transphobia should be any different.

Thanks @nottingram - perfectly put, and saves me having to start the day arguing with Archied again ?

[BaaLocks]

9 hours ago, i-Ram said:

The Daily Mail's main target audience is lower-middle-class British women. Not too right wing then, unless you take the Guardian.

Not how I would have described Meghan Markle, but fair enough (sorry, I thought you said 'main target')

Edited September 21, 2022 by BaaLocks

[BaaLocks]

28 minutes ago, nottingram said:

I think there is a fine line between tolerating everybody’s views and tolerating someone’s intolerance and I would like to understand why someone “disagrees on principle” with making someone feel more comfortable about themselves. I doubt we’d accept homophobic or racist slurs used and I don’t think transphobia should be any different.

Completely - I just fail to see the threat that some perceive in a changed pronoun. Genuinely, what is it that causes such a reaction? Why so important to have to say to someone "I am not comfortable with what makes you comfortable, even if it has zero impact on my life and wellbeing, to such a degree that I insist you adopt my thinking for your resolution".

Or is it just that change like this takes time, more with some than others? If we had been having this conversation a hundred or so years ago about female equality would some have reviled in the same manner, four hundred years ago about slavery, thirty years ago about someone with a northern accent reading the news? Is all change ultimately challenging and different people get it at different rates?

Or, is it that where we end up is often a middle ground between where some want to move to and the resistance of where we are today?

Edited September 21, 2022 by BaaLocks

[PistoldPete]

7 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

Completely - I just fail to see the threat that some perceive in a changed pronoun. Genuinely, what is it that causes such a reaction? Why so important to have to say to someone "I am not comfortable with what makes you comfortable, even if it has zero impact on my life and wellbeing, to such a degree that I insist you adopt my thinking for your resolution".

Or is it just that change like this takes time, more with some than others? If we had been having this conversation a hundred or so years ago about female equality would some have reviled in the same manner, four hundred years ago about slavery, thirty years ago about someone with a northern accent reading the news? Is all change ultimately challenging and different people get it at different rates?

Or, is it that where we end up is often a middle ground between where some want to move to and the resistance of where we are today?

I have heard of some teachers being subject of complaint for not using the pupils preferred pronoun, even though that pupil's own parents used the birth gender specific pronoun always. Where does that leave the poor teacher?  In the case of a teacher I can understand that they would feel some responsibility for the welfare of the pupil. But what is best for the pupil in that instance , to respect their wishes even if the parents do not? 

[Crewton]

Some of the worst examples of intolerance come from people who are among the most vocal in demanding tolerance. The "Be kind" tag has become a bit of a sick joke, and it's the militant end of activism that has made many areas of progressive politics so toxic. I don't think the aggressive tactics of some activists is winning any friends or allies. It just entrenches opinion. 

Notwithstanding that, I'm perfectly happy to use people's preferred pronouns, provided I know what they are, but I wouldn't expect to be criticised for getting it wrong. People in safeguarding roles, however, have a greater responsibility to get it right and for a teacher to downright refuse to use preferred pronouns, particularly when the parents are requesting it, is obtuse and asking for trouble. 

[BaaLocks]

14 minutes ago, Crewton said:

Some of the worst examples of intolerance come from people who are among the most vocal in demanding tolerance. The "Be kind" tag has become a bit of a sick joke, and it's the militant end of activism that has made many areas of progressive politics so toxic. I don't think the aggressive tactics of some activists is winning any friends or allies. It just entrenches opinion. 

Notwithstanding that, I'm perfectly happy to use people's preferred pronouns, provided I know what they are, but I wouldn't expect to be criticised for getting it wrong. People in safeguarding roles, however, have a greater responsibility to get it right and for a teacher to downright refuse to use preferred pronouns, particularly when the parents are requesting it, is obtuse and asking for trouble. 

I agree on the first paragraph - it's just becoming so divisive in society from all sides, I don't know how we all pull ourselves back from it. As you know, I sit more on that side of the fence but I do see that so many from whatever aspect are just waiting to be offended. My Twitter feed, for example, is a just an echo chamber of offence and ridicule and reasoned debate is just so difficult when people come to the table with such an inability to listen and understand.

As for the second, and to the earlier point on how the teacher reacts when the parent's use the birth pronoun. Is it so hard to just ask the child "how would you like to be referred to?" We've been doing it for years with names "are you Steve or Steven?" so why the problem with this (btw - to confirm - I appreciate this is your point, I'm agreeing!!)? If the parent insists to go against the wish of the child then if the child is a minor the teacher has to respect that. It just feels, again, that the simple solution - to your point - is just to be a bit more compassionate to people's wishes rather than trying to push our own down their throats.

Edited September 21, 2022 by BaaLocks

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

Generally I tend to get on with people if I don't consider them cnuts, the rest is irrelevant.  Nowadays, I seem to be surrounded by a lot more cnuts with a sense of humour bypass and too much irrelevant wisdom to shove my way having watched some crap on twitter.  Most of them seem to be half illiterate dumb asses to boot.

The Human resources dept at my work has changed it's name 3 times in a year to avoid upsetting anyone.  Now no one can get through to them as they have no idea who they are. Pretty soon, the mental health rate issues in this world will be hugely compounded by the vocal minority bullying the quiet more sensible live and let live majority into submission.  

Love Gee Screamer him/her/she/vogon/dalek/ weekend werewolf not just at the full moon -don't stereotype me

Edited September 21, 2022 by Gee SCREAMER !!