The Ukraine War

[Alph]

America has inflicted this in the middle east for many many years. Destroyed cities in Europe seem to matter a lot more than on other continents

Peace to Ukraine. Freedom to Ukraine. 

And I hope the reaction is the same when USA invade yet another country. 

[Alph]

Anybody watching Question Time?

Couple of people prepared to listen and understand Putin's security concerns, if not because they agree with them, but because you absolutely have to. 

Also something I don't understand. Praise of the protests in Russia but apparently there's discussions that such protests won't be legal here in the future?? Question was shrugged off?

Then some guy saying since 2010 we've weakened our military and allowed Putin to flex over Ukraine and Crimea. We should have "dealt with the threat". We have the smallest military we've had in 300 years

Very interesting guy named Konstantin Kisin. He's ashamed of his country, has family and friends in Ukraine and Russia. Spoke about how we've ignored the threat for too long. Might be wrong but I thought he said we were ignorant of Russian concerns. 

Shame now that it's falling into local politics. About our slow sanctions on "friendly" Russian oligarchs. 

Konstantin shooting down the idea that party politics are relevant or important right now. He says Russia is not receiving our news/independent news anywhere near fast or clear enough to make a difference. And that we should be careful how far we back Putin into a corner. 

Edited March 3, 2022 by Alpha

[Alph]

It's good to see a fair scattering of people trying to apply some sense from the Russian perspective. 

I think if you paint Putin as this satanic figure who's relentless drive to rebuild the Soviet Union is the reason he's killing his Slavic brothers... then what do you propose. There's no dealing with him except fight fire with fire

Trying to understand him and then there's a point of negotiation. And I think that's what's made this thread such a good civilised debate. In that those who are dead set against Putin have been willing to listen to those who (aren't with Putin) are sympathetic towards his vision for Russia and Russian people. Even if they don't agree its good that people have listened to @BaaLocks and at least thought past the "Hitler is back" angle. 

I don't know how much trouble this thread has caused the mods. I hope not too much

Because between the hysterical West media and the State line Russian media there's surely a logical right answer. And I think there are conversations being had that a realistic, logical and recognise failures on both sides to allow such a war to happen. This little corner of the Internet certainly makes more sense than Liz Truss. 

Edited March 3, 2022 by Alpha

[Leeds Ram]

8 hours ago, BaaLocks said:

That's the problem though, isn't it, it's all riddled with hypocrisy on every side. Take Syria, in that conflict he supported the ruling party and helped them fight back insurgent forces armed and supported by the US (among others) who many saw as supporting the deposing of the ruling party. So in that case it could be argued he did exactly what many are expecting NATO to do in Ukraine. Now, many will rightly say 'what about Hallabja?' and you are right - I'm just saying it's a mess when you start pulling it to bits. Take Kamala Harris yesterday, saying big countries invading small countries is wrong - she needs to tell her Foreign Secretary that message then because there has been no greater breaker of that rule than the US. It's just so hypocritical when you stand back.

Chechnya is Russian territory and, sorry, you need to recognize some of the barbaric actions carried out by the Chechen terrorists (funded in part by the US, funded in part by Al Qaeda, led by Osama Bin Laden at one time btw). Blowing up apartment blocks in Moscow, hostages in theatres, hijacking maternity wards in hospitals, schools (Beslan) and stripping the skin of children's backs while videoing it and sending it back to Moscow. If (for example) the IRA were carrying out those tactics I can be confident many, many, many would have called for similar actions. On this one, and I lived through it, I cannot say I found the tactics used disproportionate with what was happening in return - horrific, yes, but what was coming back in return was truly barbaric. You cannot let terrorists blow up and torture your civilians (including childrend and babies) without response.

Litvenenko? Yes, completely & utterly wrong. Skripal? Yes wrong, but while I am not excusing anything it is well documented that he stepped beyond the 'unwritten code' and started selling information after he had retired. No debate, he (and his daughter) shouldn't have been subject to an attempted murder for that but this is a dark and horrible place in the world of espionage and double spying. All a bit Mafia as I understand. And the fact that it happened on UK territory but, effectively, went unchallenged well - I think we all know why that was.

Vlad a proper nutter? Again, depends on definition. He is clearly someone who believes killing is acceptable in the name of his country. But it is not just foaming at the mouth insanity, it is all very cold, very calculated, probably medically psycopathic and all part of his frame of what is within acceptable. But the point of focus should not be Putin, it should be the constant ongoing erosion of trust between East and West - it is present in Russia, China, Middle East and elsewhere. Whoever succeeds Putin will likely be scarred by that, will likely have many of the same frustrations that led Putin to this horrible place. it will not go away when Putin goes away.

Again, before anyone piles on, I'm not trying to justify, support or absolve blame from any of it. I'm just trying to see beyond the 'mad Vlad' banner a bit - not to sympathise but to understand. And I am also pointing out that many (beyond mad Vlad) in Russia may not agree with the war but they will tell you aplenty, as will many in China and elsewhere, that the constant meddling by the US and others in their politics not only causes political instability but heightens tensions and the likelihood of events like we have witnessed.

Except Ukraine is a democratic nation and Syria has been ruled by a single family for going on 5 decades.... The 'ruling party' in Syria was facing a mass uprising from the people who had demanded free elections, implementation of law and an end to the Assad regime.  It has exactly 0 equivalence to do with what people are wanting NATO to do in Ukraine and it's quite a despicable false equivalence to make.I'd also add the Russian presence in Syria was one that accompanied multiple war crimes and a completely duplicitous claim of fighting 'Islamic extremists' when 90% of their fire power was focused upon non extremist groups demanding an end to Assad.  Halabaja was an Iraqi massacre and nothing to do with Syria btw so you've got both the time frame and geography completely mixed up there.  

You're trying to paint an equivalence where one doesn't exist quite honestly.  

Edited March 4, 2022 by Leeds Ram

[Leeds Ram]

2 hours ago, Alpha said:

America has inflicted this in the middle east for many many years. Destroyed cities in Europe seem to matter a lot more than on other continents

Peace to Ukraine. Freedom to Ukraine. 

And I hope the reaction is the same when USA invade yet another country. 

You do realise there is a difference between a humanitarian intervention and territorial expansionism? It's a totally false equivalence you're painting here. 

[Ramarena]

Oh look……the Russians are shelling a nuclear power plant now.

As you do!

 

[sage]

7 hours ago, BaaLocks said:

@sage - time for a poll? ?

As long as I can vote for more than 1 person 

[Eddie]

35 minutes ago, Ramarena said:

Oh look……the Russians are shelling a nuclear power plant now.

As you do!

 

And there are still people who claim to understand this utterly evil cretin's reasoning.

[Alph]

4 hours ago, Eddie said:

And there are still people who claim to understand this utterly evil cretin's reasoning.

For war? Is there?

[Alph]

5 hours ago, Leeds Ram said:

You do realise there is a difference between a humanitarian intervention and territorial expansionism? It's a totally false equivalence you're painting here. 

Oh I realise. That's what America do in the Middle East is it? Humanitarian intervention. 

Got it

[alexxxxx]

I think the government understand Putin's view I just don't think negotiating with him recognising those views as legitimate in negotiation is ever going to be seen as the right thing to do by the west. 

The west didn't intervene in 2014 and allowed crimea to be annexed in to Russia proper and allowed Russian troops to take over areas of donbass. What happened then? Minsk agreements which were never properly followed by all parties.

Russia doesn't respect Ukraines territorial integrity and therefore no agreement will ever be made 

Edited March 4, 2022 by alexxxxx

[Anon]

7 hours ago, Leeds Ram said:

You do realise there is a difference between a humanitarian intervention and territorial expansionism? It's a totally false equivalence you're painting here. 

I understand the difference perfectly well. It's "humanitarian intervention" when we do it, territorial expansion for anyone else.

[Alph]

20 minutes ago, alexxxxx said:

I think the government understand Putin's view I just don't think negotiating with him recognising those views as legitimate in negotiation is ever going to be seen as the right thing to do by the west. 

The west didn't intervene in 2014 and allowed crimea to be annexed in to Russia proper and allowed Russian troops to take over areas of donbass. What happened then? Minsk agreements which were never properly followed by all parties.

Russia doesn't respect Ukraines territorial integrity and therefore no agreement will ever be made 

This is the thing though. People going on that he's evil etc... what do they propose? Nato intervention? 

The odd poster pops on to berate anyone "justifying" the war. 

OK, he's an evil Hitler. Now what? What do they think you can do from there?

So let's go down the route of trying to understand the man

"You're justifying him killing civilians!!!".... yeah, we all love Ukranian kids being killed. I know it's top of my search history. 

There has to be some understanding of the situation or Nato intervention to stop a tyrant. Where do that lead

Putin's invasion of Ukraine isn't a random spot on the map. He knows that he can put forward claims on East Ukraine and Crimea and use that to justify his invasion while we can do nothing. Any criticism he can bat back as hypocrites and mention several similar situations. He's selling it as a defensive war. 

Eddie has suggested 3 times now that people are defending him. They're not. They're understanding his angle

And if The West refuses to understand his view of the world then we will continue down the path of war with Putin and possibly future Russian leaders. 

Rightly or wrongly you can call him evil. But God isn't going to strike him down. So what alternative is there to listening to him? WW3? A Nuclear war?

He won't stop in Ukraine until he has achieved his goals or lost power. 

[BaaLocks]

10 hours ago, EtoileSportiveDeDerby said:

Everytime i see pictures on TV of those women and kids who are fleeing the war i keep thinking how is this happening in 2022 in Europe

It shouldn't be happening anywhere in the world, why is it more alarming because it is happening in Europe? The attached explains it better than I ever could.

 

[BaaLocks]

8 hours ago, Leeds Ram said:

You're trying to paint an equivalence where one doesn't exist quite honestly.  

I don't think I was trying to paint an eqiuvalence at all - indeed what I said was "I'm just saying it's a mess when you start pulling it to bits". Probably best to leave Syria and the Middle East out of this thread or it will go off in all directions. But if anyone wants an example of what happens when external forces come and try to fix local situations then that is it.

And, to be clear, as with Ukraine, the point I am making is not about whether or not we should be sending military in to help repel invasions or supression but the 20, 30 (or 100 years in the case of the Middle East) years of subterfuge that went before fomenting the situation for political and economic gain.

But we never, ever seem to learn - either that or the truth is we know all along but it serves our purpose. Hey, maybe that's why we didn't have the same level of interest in conflicts in South Sudan, Yemen, Uganda or Myanmar?

[BaaLocks]

8 hours ago, Ramarena said:

Oh look……the Russians are shelling a nuclear power plant now.

As you do!

It's the perfect example of the fog of war - they didn't shell the power plant, they shelled the surrouding region and have now taken the power plant intact. Radiation levels are normal - actually, nothing much to see here other than a tactical advance in time of war. But not much of a tabloid headline in "Russians take power station without damaging it". A bit like the suggestion that the convoy has run out of fuel - maybe it has, maybe the Russians are waiting to see if talks can be successful before laying siege. One thing I can say, yes there has been fighting but if Putin had really wanted to take Ukraine quickly (96 hours etc) then it would have been on a scale multiple, multiple times worse than this.

As I said, be careful writing him off as a madman - he is a cold, calculating, indeed possibly psycopathic leader and everyone will do themselves a disservice if they miss all that because they bought into the 'mad as a bag of badgers' line.

And if the Russians wanted to make something go bang then remember that Ukraine has natural gas reserves over 1 trillion cubic metres (imagine a cube of natural gas sitting over Derby, no funnies about Marstons Pedigree please) six miles long in either direction. Quite literally, that's about the size of it.

[BaaLocks]

9 hours ago, Alpha said:

Even if they don't agree its good that people have listened to @BaaLocks and at least thought past the "Hitler is back" angle.

To that point, I'm going to step back on this thread now. I'm getting to the point where I'm feeling I'm just repeating myself and for those who want to know a bit about how we got here it's in the previous 26 pages - if you don't then ignorance is bliss and I'd suggest go listen to Liz Truss for a big dollop of that.

I'm not saying I'm quitting the thread, but I don't think I'm helping anyone too much if it's just me responding on the same points again and again. To @Davids point, sensitive times and there are likely people reading this thread who have relatives in one country or the other. Looking forward to sharing news of relief when this has all hopefully been concluded with limited further suffering. 

[Gone]

13 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

yes there has been fighting but if Putin had really wanted to take Ukraine quickly (96 hours etc) then it would have been on a scale multiple, multiple times worse than this

Oh good that must make all those dead, injured and or homeless innocent people feel much much better, what a nice chap Putin really is. 

[ketteringram]

1 hour ago, BaaLocks said:

It shouldn't be happening anywhere in the world, why is it more alarming because it is happening in Europe? The attached explains it better than I ever could.

 

You're right, it shouldn't. It's more alarming , personally, in the same way that if I was living in Derby, and there's a house on fire in Plymouth, it's probably not going to be on my radar. 

If it's in the same road as me, it probably is. If it's the next door house which is joined up to mine, it definitely is.

[Stive Pesley]

1 hour ago, Anon said:

I understand the difference perfectly well. It's "humanitarian intervention" when we do it, territorial expansion for anyone else.

It's probably splitting hairs, but I cant think of any western countries have gone to war recently in order to expand their territory (ie annex a neighbour)?

Now if you'd said "regime overthrow in order to install a new order that suits our interests" then no argument

We've done plenty of that

Right now though it looks more likely that Putin wants to subsume Ukraine back into Russia, rather than install a Russian-friendly regime like he has in Belarus?