The Administration Thread

[RipleyRich]

2 minutes ago, RamBeauIV said:

RipleyRich ... Is that you Daddy?

?

[jimtastic56]

Only 10 pages to go! I think Roy Mac should have the honour of taking us through the landmark. Is he ok? Hope all is well. The subject of HMRC has been a constant in this thread and we are all still guessing , l think we will still be guessing when we hit the 3,000 page mark.

[kevinhectoring]

59 minutes ago, RipleyRich said:

You may well be right. I am just reading what I can find and interpreting it as best I can.

It`s this bit that concerns me, taken directly from Quantuma`s own article titled: "Is rescuing Football Clubs a thing of the past?"

Changes to status of HMRC tax debt

With effect from 1 December 2020, HMRC will receive preferential status for all tax debt. This means these debts get paid ahead of other unsecured debts as well as some secured debts and crucially, as a preferential debt, it cannot be compromised. As a result, clubs will need to pay HMRC in full.

Now I appreciate a number of members of this forum have had a go at me over this, and some think I have a hidden agenda which I can assure you I have not. I am just reading and gathering factual information and trying to put the pieces together and that piece of information concerns me more than anything else I have found.

It however doesn`t state debts have to be paid in full to exit administration, so my assumption is a new owner can agree a payment plan over an agreed period. But reading that my understanding is that the Tax Bill will have to be settled in full at some point.
 

I think what q were trying to say is that HMRC is in a creditor class if its own so can’t be compromised unless they consent. 
 

I go back to Hoskin’s comments - it’s pretty clear from those (not to mention the £28m bid from the Binnies) that HMRC has indicated it will voluntarily take haircut. 

[Jimbo Ram]

19 minutes ago, jimtastic56 said:

Only 10 pages to go! I think Roy Mac should have the honour of taking us through the landmark. Is he ok? Hope all is well. The subject of HMRC has been a constant in this thread and we are all still guessing , l think we will still be guessing when we hit the 3,000 page mark.

Yea, where is my 'Bestie' Roy Mac....missing him......

[atherstoneram]

9 hours ago, uttoxram75 said:

Well, we can all speculate as much as we like, but unfortunately none of us know.

Oh, except the Government Minister who stated in the HoC that HMRC would not be the cause of Derby's demise. He'd know. ?

We all know how ministers for various departments say one thing and then are overruled by another,I cannot see why the sports minister would have any jurisdiction over what the HMRC decide.

[atherstoneram]

11 hours ago, kevinhectoring said:

I think this is confused. The 2020 tax changes weren’t aimed at football clubs. They were aimed at all companies. 
 

The rules designed to stop football clubs benefiting from administration are the EFl rules and policies 

I think you will find they are aimed at football clubs,i don't see many other businesses having football creditors and who then have to receive 100% of what they are owed.

[atherstoneram]

1 hour ago, Reggie Greenwood said:

And keep repeating ad infinitum. We all know your opinion 15 times over. 

But it's no different to other posters keep repeating that HMRC will accept 25%.

[cosmic]

41 minutes ago, RamBeauIV said:

Let's say an educated guess. 

Brilliant 

[PistoldPete]

57 minutes ago, RamBeauIV said:

Oooh, can I have a guess then?

Throughout this thread, quite a few posters have underestimated the role of HMRC in us surviving. None of us want to hear this and hence the reluctance to hear what RipleyRich is saying.

Such as:
(1) They have to make do with 25% (£7.5M).  That's not gonna happen.
(2) If Q fees and PB deposit reduce price and money for creditors, then HMRC will have to make do with less.  That's not gonna happen.
(3) HMRC will settle for less than 25% or get diddly squat if liquidated.  That's not gonna happen (i.e. them settling for less, as they're not gonna give two hoots about us being wound up).
(4) "the Government Minister who stated in the HoC that HMRC would not be the cause of Derby's demise". Factually true for a politician, as it wasn't HMRC who refused to accept our £28.5M, or will refuse to accept it in the future. Inferring that they're gonna let us off (coz we're a community asset and our mental health) is not gonna happen.

Thankfully, Q have engaged with HMRC and got them on board with possible scenarios to resolve this (e.g. 25% upfront and then a CVA / payment plan over X years). It will be up to the PB to negotiate this with HMRC, but presumably the bids will have addressed this in their proposals (e.g. another 40%, 50%, 60%, 75% over 2 or 3 years etc.).  My guess is that the bids (in respect of the HMRC resolution) need to be bounced off HMRC for their tacit approval as to whether they're in the right ballpark.

Q has said there was no payment plan in the proposals . So I think it will be a one off settlement and in spite of what you say it is highly unlikely to be at 100% of what HMRC are due.

[Donnyram]

7 hours ago, S8TY said:

Any chance of seeing the girl tapping her fingers to cheer us up …I think she was blonde ?

Really?  I didn’t notice her hair 

[atherstoneram]

5 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Q has said there was no payment plan in the proposals . So I think it will be a one off settlement and in spite of what you say it is highly unlikely to be at 100% of what HMRC are due.

Since the administrators First announced that HMRC were onboard ( i don't see any reference there to taking less than what is owed) our situation has moved on especially since it was raised in parliament, other clubs and MP's may now be watching intently. More so MP's as they fought hard through parliament to get things changed so HMRC get what they are owed.

 

[WhiteHorseRam]

15 hours ago, LERam said:

I was doing my usual day dreaming earlier, and it usually leads to what I'd spend my 100 million on if I won the euro millions 

 

If you won 100m would you be prepared to save Derby by donating x amount, if so how much, and what would you want in return?

 

I think I'd be happy putting 20m, I don't want much in return, just be treated like a god, and have free reign to walk around and do as I please

I would keep 20m for myself

 

40m for the Rams

10m to ring the High Wycombe ground with badly managed land fills sites

10m to buy Middlesborough in its entirety and turn it into a  badly managed land fill site ..

 

....  hold up, someone has beaten me to the last one.

[duncanjwitham]

29 minutes ago, atherstoneram said:

I think you will find they are aimed at football clubs,i don't see many other businesses having football creditors and who then have to receive 100% of what they are owed.

The 2020 rule changes were nothing to do with football creditors though. They were about bumping HMRC up the order of creditor preference.

[atherstoneram]

7 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

The 2020 rule changes were nothing to do with football creditors though. They were about bumping HMRC up the order of creditor preference.

I was replying to a previous poster who said the 2020 rule changes weren't aimed at football clubs.

[Ram-Alf]

1 hour ago, RamBeauIV said:

Let's say an educated guess. 
(i) We have to pay a minimum of 25% upfront to satisfy the EFL (and not get the 15 point deduction next season). 
(ii) Q have said that they have had those negotiations with HMRC and presented them with a range of scenarios.
(iii) Resolution will have to be a payment plan.

(iiii) Payment plan put forward to PB who says duck off

(iiiii) Q go back to their office and drawing board

(iiiiii) Meanwhile PBs are looking at where we're going to finish at the end of the season

(iiiiiii) Accountants for the PBs are now telling their employers that the new figures don't stack up

(iiiiiiii) DCFC meanwhile are 2 games to go and 3 points behind Reading after Peterboro and Barnsley are relegated

(iiiiiiiii) New offers are put forward again to Q as the trapdoor looms

(iiiiiiiiii) Q are now up poo creek as they left the paddles in the office

(iiiiiiiiiii) Reading win their next game, DCFC lose and are relegated

(iiiiiiiiiiii) Substantial lower bids are put in, Q buy a new drawing board

(iiiiiiiiiiii) Q finally have no alternative but to liquidate DCFC

(iiiiiiiiiiiii) New pheonix club is formed and accepted in the National league

(iiiiiiiiiiiiii) DCFC has a new owner, A consortium from DCFCfans message board

(iiiiiiiiiiiiiii) The new Chairman is B4ev6is, Who says DCFC as is good hands and will be all now looking forward to next having the 1st game all sell out....Come on Derby County!

 

[duncanjwitham]

7 minutes ago, atherstoneram said:

I was replying to a previous poster who said the 2020 rule changes weren't aimed at football clubs.

But they aren't aimed at football clubs specifically - they're about allowing the government to claim more tax back from stricken businesses in general (not just football clubs):

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/introduction-of-changes-to-protect-your-tax-in-insolvency/introduction-of-changes-to-protect-your-tax-in-insolvency

[I am Ram]

Morning get the thread to 1000 pages poo post.

[Mihangel]

10 minutes ago, Unlucky Alf said:

(iiii) Payment plan put forward to PB who says duck off

(iiiii) Q go back to their office and drawing board

(iiiiii) Meanwhile PBs are looking at where we're going to finish at the end of the season

(iiiiiii) Accountants for the PBs are now telling their employers that the new figures don't stack up

(iiiiiiii) DCFC meanwhile are 2 games to go and 3 points behind Reading after Peterboro and Barnsley are relegated

(iiiiiiiii) New offers are put forward again to Q as the trapdoor looms

(iiiiiiiiii) Q are now up poo creek as they left the paddles in the office

(iiiiiiiiiii) Reading win their next game, DCFC lose and are relegated

(iiiiiiiiiiii) Substantial lower bids are put in, Q buy a new drawing board

(iiiiiiiiiiii) Q finally have no alternative but to liquidate DCFC

(iiiiiiiiiiiii) New pheonix club is formed and accepted in the National league

(iiiiiiiiiiiiii) DCFC has a new owner, A consortium from DCFCfans message board

(iiiiiiiiiiiiiii) The new Chairman is B4ev6is, Who says DCFC as is good hands and will be all now looking forward to next having the 1st game all sell out....Come on Derby County!

 

A helping hand for next time, a freebie for you:-

i.

ii.

iii.

iv.

v

vii

viii.

ix.

x

[Alty_Ram]

I've heard that Q are busy building a giant sculpture on the PP pitch of a mongoose made of raspberry ripple ice cream and that there plan is to invite all the creditors to a meeting and while they are all stood there in awe looking at 'Marty the Pride Park Mongoose', Q will then take the revenue hit and switch all the heaters on and when Marty melts, the creditors will all be swept away into the Derwent in a delicious but deadly tsunami of cream and raspberry.

The stadium will be gone too of course but it solves the issue of negotiating over it. The preferred bidder will then rebuild it on the vacant site with lego bricks using labour from all the local primary schools. This then provides the added future revenue stream of allowing the club to rebuild and reconfigure for concerts in summer or put a roof on with just a quick call to the schools and the option to build a slightly lower capacity PP that will therefore still be full in the event that we have to play League 1 Football.

That's what I'd heard anyway.

[Carl Sagan]

Surely at this point, with next season's division still up in the air, there will be no preferred bidder and no sale? It's a question of waiting until we're definitely down or, unlikely but still possible, definitely up. If the latter it means almost certainly waiting until the end of the final game. 

In turn this informs the decision as to whether take a further 15 point deduction next season or stick to a business plan that sees the EFL maintain its financial straitjacket in an attempt to relegate us again. 

No options are good, with the additional pain of nothing happening for 3 more months unless we become cast adrift of safety. Need a little patience while the thread builds to 2000 pages.