The Administration Thread

[PistoldPete]

4 minutes ago, Red Ram said:

Exactly my concern Stiv. Just don't see how it can happen in time now. You couldn't buy a house in these timescales let alone a football club, especially one where the ownership structure of the various constituent parts is so complex and fragmented. Obviously very much hope we're both wrong but am fearing the worst more now than at any other point in this debacle.

 

 

But you are assuming that we have to do a deal before the start of the season. We don’t. We , or rather some very wealthy rams fans , May have to provide guarantees that the club can keep trading until  a buyer is found. 

[Crewton]

12 minutes ago, Parsnip said:

That's like one of those wedding group photos where, a short while after the event, you suddenly realise that half those present are already dead. 

[PistoldPete]

11 minutes ago, Curtains said:

So Appleby deal is say 22 Million for the ground and out of other 18 Million they have to pay MSD 20 Million and HMRC etc .

Is the feasible 

No the Msd will be paid off from sale of PPS. 

[Alty_Ram]

3 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

But you are assuming that we have to do a deal before the start of the season. We don’t. We , or rather some very wealthy rams fans , May have to provide guarantees that the club can keep trading until  a buyer is found. 

Sure, as a technicality, but who is going to agree to bankroll a whole season (with player numbers and wages as yet undecided) without them being the owner ? All that has happened so far is that we seem to keep taking more MSD loans which keeps DCFC alive but without an owner there is no way of paying that back and in any case the package becomes less attractive by the day as more players leave and the debt piles even higher. This has to be resolved surely ?

I just can't see how the mythical failed CK offer can be matched or bettered unless someone wants to write off a lot of money on their newly acquired club. As a business acquisition it really doesn't seem to make a lot of sense unless you were some benevolent benefactor and there seem to be precious few of those around. As a pure business venture this just looks worse and worse as time goes on. It needs bringing to a close as fast as they possibly can, not just for everyone's sanity but for business reasons, otherwise it is going to be a case of picking the bits out of the smoking rubble of DCFC and starting again in whatever division is deemed suitable.

[RadioactiveWaste]

But on the bright side...

..I'll get me coat...

[Curtains]

14 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

No the Msd will be paid off from sale of PPS. 

So it is Mel that pays MSD from Stadium sale  and waves his loans he is owed or see below 

——————————-

Appleby wants to buy PP Stadium which takes 22 out of 40 leaving 18 and hopefully Mel waves money he is owed 

18 won’t pay HMRC  35 p in the pound and MSD  etc !
 

 

Edited June 17, 2022 by Curtains
Altered

[Jimbo Ram]

1 minute ago, Alty_Ram said:

Sure, as a technicality, but who is going to agree to bankroll a whole season (with player numbers and wages as yet undecided) without them being the owner ? All that has happened so far is that we seem to keep taking more MSD loans which keeps DCFC alive but without an owner there is no way of paying that back and in any case the package becomes less attractive by the day as more players leave and the debt piles even higher. This has to be resolved surely ?

I just can't see how the mythical failed CK offer can be matched or bettered unless someone wants to write off a lot of money on their newly acquired club. As a business acquisition it really doesn't seem to make a lot of sense unless you were some benevolent benefactor and there seem to be precious few of those around. As a pure business venture this just looks worse and worse as time goes on. It needs bringing to a close as fast as they possibly can, not just for everyone's sanity but for business reasons, otherwise it is going to be a case of picking the bits out of the smoking rubble of DCFC and starting again in whatever division is deemed suitable.

Is any ownership of a football club a business decision? Even Man U and Chelski in the Prem are making massive losses and are millions in debt. Surely it’s more of a vanity project and an ego trip for most owners…..

[PistoldPete]

9 minutes ago, Curtains said:

So it is Mel that pays MSD from Stadium sale  and waves his loans he is owed or see below 

——————————-

Appleby wants to buy PP Stadium which takes 22 out of 40 leaving 18 and hopefully Mel waves money he is owed 

18 won’t pay HMRC and MSD ! 
 

 

The first one I believe. 

[admira]

34 minutes ago, Parsnip said:

Oh yeah, I forgot that one!

[atherstoneram]

12 hours ago, TuffLuff said:

I can’t quite believe that, as a fan, you can believe anyones narrative on getting this sorted. A slither of info, no matter the source, will make fans fall hook, line and sinker time and again. 

We are desperate for some proper investigative journalism, but it does seem like most reputable journalists keep an arms length away from the story. When things get desperate we might get a tweet, but no one is really looking in to what’s happening. 

Do you wonder why reputable journalists keep at arms length?

They are not going to comment on an administration which is in progress, if they report something which brings the process into question they would find themselves in front of a judge. People forget this is a judicial process.

[PistoldPete]

14 minutes ago, Alty_Ram said:

Sure, as a technicality, but who is going to agree to bankroll a whole season (with player numbers and wages as yet undecided) without them being the owner ? All that has happened so far is that we seem to keep taking more MSD loans which keeps DCFC alive but without an owner there is no way of paying that back and in any case the package becomes less attractive by the day as more players leave and the debt piles even higher. This has to be resolved surely ?

I just can't see how the mythical failed CK offer can be matched or bettered unless someone wants to write off a lot of money on their newly acquired club. As a business acquisition it really doesn't seem to make a lot of sense unless you were some benevolent benefactor and there seem to be precious few of those around. As a pure business venture this just looks worse and worse as time goes on. It needs bringing to a close as fast as they possibly can, not just for everyone's sanity but for business reasons, otherwise it is going to be a case of picking the bits out of the smoking rubble of DCFC and starting again in whatever division is deemed suitable.

Well we already have an agreement for a rams fan to buy PPS. Either as a rams fan or as a landlord he wouldn’t want the rams to go pop. You could the same about Morris but let’s not stir that hornets nest. 
 

the cost of such a guarantee could turn out to be nothing really because with a lot of players leaving the wage bill should be very manageable and we could even make a profit for the year. 

[Ghost of Clough]

50 minutes ago, jono said:

As I understand it Derby County FC owe MSD ….. but Mel has given PPS as security for that debt. So if DCFC fail - I.e are liquidated or only pay x pence in the pound, MSD then go after Mel for the security he offered 

@Ghost of Clough is that right ? 

The arrangement is to guarantee MSD get their return on investment. They won't care where it comes from, as long as they get it. What would likely happen is MSD repossessing the stadium and selling it themselves.

[Animal is a Ram]

30 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

I think part of the problem is that headline figures for bids don't really give you all the details.  We don't know if that's £40m up front, or intended to be paid over time.  We don't know the exact plan for the stadium.  We don't know if they are including funds they intend to inject into the club to run it after a takeover in there.  We don't know if they intend to borrow any money in addition to, or as part of, that figure. And so on and so on.  It's very difficult to judge anything, or make comparisons between bids, when all we have are a single big number each.

Very much agreed, and it depends on how much stock you take in what various people have said - but let's break it down.

Taking things at face value:  

Quote

We don't know if that's £40m up front, or intended to be paid over time. 

Nixon 'report' that new bidders are looking to do it cheaper by taking the 25% hit
Nixon 'report' EFL want creditors paid in that initial money within 10 days of completion

Appleby's 'in excess of £40m' would cover:
the £21.4m for creditors (as agreed under the CK 'deal') - assume this would drop using a 25% calculation
the £20.5m for MSD/Mel for the stadium.

Quote

We don't know the exact plan for the stadium.

See above. It would also be said that Ashley would look to buy the stadium outright too, given his quote in the Telegraph/Percy piece.

Quote

We don't know if they are including funds they intend to inject into the club to run it after a takeover in there.

How can it possibly, given the numbers we know above? Also, the EFL will test for this, think there was a reference to £100m of funds in the early times of the CK interest? (Yes, I know about how useless the EFL have been...)

 

 

[Alty_Ram]

5 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Well we already have an agreement for a rams fan to buy PPS. Either as a rams fan or as a landlord he wouldn’t want the rams to go pop. You could the same about Morris but let’s not stir that hornets nest. 
 

the cost of such a guarantee could turn out to be nothing really because with a lot of players leaving the wage bill should be very manageable and we could even make a profit for the year. 

But having a football club that cannot field a viable side is surely just a money sink ? I agree that we will likely lose players and therefore have a lower bill but at what cost in terms of people's willingness to pay good money to see it ? We are struggling at all levels for viability. Our U23s got relegated because the have been heavily plundered to patch up the first team and have been just to give us a bench. As far as I can see our value continues to nosedive the longer this goes on because it is becoming a bigger and bigger task to rebuild with less and less playing asset.

[atherstoneram]

10 hours ago, The Scarlet Pimpernel said:

So there is this stadium valued at over £80m and a league one team valued at next to nothing for sale for £45m. As an investor why isn't it a good deal? 

Because of the large amount of debt to be serviced.

[Curtains]

15 minutes ago, Animal is a Ram said:

Very much agreed, and it depends on how much stock you take in what various people have said - but let's break it down.

Taking things at face value:  

Nixon 'report' that new bidders are looking to do it cheaper by taking the 25% hit
Nixon 'report' EFL want creditors paid in that initial money within 10 days of completion

Appleby's 'in excess of £40m' would cover:
the £21.4m for creditors (as agreed under the CK 'deal') - assume this would drop using a 25% calculation
the £20.5m for MSD/Mel for the stadium.

See above. It would also be said that Ashley would look to buy the stadium outright too, given his quote in the Telegraph/Percy piece.

How can it possibly, given the numbers we know above? Also, the EFL will test for this, think there was a reference to £100m of funds in the early times of the CK interest? (Yes, I know about how useless the EFL have been...)

 

 

Your figures show a approximate 2 Million shortfall and that’s quite a lot of dosh and what about all the other costs .

Why are you assuming it’s in excess of 40 million offer !

Edited June 17, 2022 by Curtains

[Phuket Ram]

43 minutes ago, Curtains said:

So Appleby deal is say 22 Million for the ground and out of other 18 Million they have to pay MSD 20 Million and HMRC etc .

Is the feasible 

The MSD debt is £24m. This is cleared by whoever buys the stadium. Anything above that amount is used to pay football creditors, and then unsecured creditors like HMRC.
 

Others know more precisely, but I’d imagine it needs to be around £18-20m. But unsecured creditors can optionally be paid 35% of what they are owed through a 3 year repayment plan. Obviously this makes it more difficult to buy/loan/sign players as it is an ongoing expense. Similarly if the ground is leased - same problem (ongoing expense).

So we’re looking for a buyer to pay a total of around £42m to reduce unnecessary ongoing costs and avoid the points penalty.

We would also own the stadium again. 
 

Appleby is rumoured to have bid £40m. I don’t think that’s true, but if it was - I would take it. 

[Animal is a Ram]

Just now, Curtains said:

Your figures show a approximate 2 Million shortfall and that’s quite a lot of dosh and what about all the other costs .

 

Two things - in excess of £40m, and, the £21.4m was using the 35% over three years calculation. As I put at the end of that sentence, this will drop slightly given others want to use 25% as it's cheaper.

Please read it all.

[Mostyn6]

the way MSD have been offering us cash, I would be confident that they will accept a restructuring of the loan/debts.

Only guessing though. I have no ITK. But if I was one of the bidders, I would (via the Administrators) ask if the MSD debts can be paid over 5-7 years, and not starting until next season. This would make the initial investment less. There's no rule that clubs mustn't be in debt, just that they must not be defaulting on those debts.

[Curtains]

7 minutes ago, Animal is a Ram said:

Two things - in excess of £40m, and, the £21.4m was using the 35% over three years calculation. As I put at the end of that sentence, this will drop slightly given others want to use 25% as it's cheaper.

Please read it all.

I did I edited I’m always editing sorry .

Ok in excess of 40 Million wow