The young players from the academy who are coming into the first team..

[PistoldPete]

11 hours ago, MackworthRamIsGod said:

The EFL, in a weird kind of way.

If it wasn't for them Mel would be still making Stella signings like Butterfield and Blackman like the fans wanted.

No I don't think EFL had anything to do with it. Their action in January 2020 came after Morris had already turned off the tap, as his money had run out (or at least his Derby county jam jar).

Morris of course takes credit for the academy, as he paid for it, just as he rightly takes the blame for the rubbish signings, as he paid for them too.

But I don't  think we could just rely on the academy. Brentford scrapped their academy and they are in the Premier league.  We needed to be active in the transfer market as well but just to be much better at it than we were. 

[PistoldPete]

1 hour ago, CornwallRam said:

If sustainability relies on promotion, and playing a team half full of academy graduates has got us to 19th in tables, is it definitely the correct strategy?

Exactly. Brentford scapped their academy. Not suggesting we do that but you need to be making better signings, that's why we are headed for league One and why Brentford in the Premier.

[LeedsCityRam]

1 hour ago, CornwallRam said:

If sustainability relies on promotion, and playing a team half full of academy graduates has got us to 19th in tables, is it definitely the correct strategy?

We're not 19th on results because the team is full of academy graduates. We're 19th because we carry little threat up top & hence draw far too many games/lose tight games that we could win with one or two more striker options. 

Should also point out that if we need to sell players to keep the club afloat until the summer, only the academy graduates would fetch any money - that surely proves the value of the work done at Moor Farm.

Incidentally, 5/6 years ago you probably would have been correct in suggesting a better scouting & transfer strategy would have been priority over an Academy model - certainly in terms of getting success quicker. However that window has narrowed considerably now we've left the EU (so Brentford's pathway is now closed) & hence young English players graduating from the Academy (whether scouted at an early age or brought in as 17/18 year olds from Prem academies like Plange) is our best chance of sustainability, especially if we look to sell them at their peak value/interest.

[PistoldPete]

1 hour ago, Ghost of Clough said:

We had the academy players to fill in as squad players but weren't used - Lowe, Hanson, Elsnik, Guy, Vernam, Riis Jacobsen just to name a few. All could have filled in more than they did.

And where are any of those players now? Only Lowe is a Championship player now. When Lowe first appeared he wasn't even good enough for that , got roasted in his first few games under Lampard. Maybe we should have got a loan signing in, with Fozzy and Lowe and Buchanan coming through we really didn't need to sign Malone. 

[Ghost of Clough]

2 hours ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

They could but of those only Lowe was probably good enough. The lads we’re seeing now are all better than those names, Lowe and possibly Riis Jacobsen aside.

 

1 hour ago, PistoldPete said:

And where are any of those players now? Only Lowe is a Championship player now. When Lowe first appeared he wasn't even good enough for that , got roasted in his first few games under Lampard. Maybe we should have got a loan signing in, with Fozzy and Lowe and Buchanan coming through we really didn't need to sign Malone. 

The point being those players should have been there as emergency backup in their positions. Sort of like the roles Wes Brown, O'Shea, etc had at Man Utd. Capable of filling in, but not good enoigh as a regular starter - as evidenced when they eventually moved on.

In 15/16, we had Pearce, Shotton and Buxton as 4th, 5th and 6th choice CBs, playing for a total of 261 minutes in the league. Rawson could easily have stepped in as 4th choice instead, and showed he was capable enough based on his loan out to Rotherham. Hanson didn't look out of place in the team yet hardly featured again in following seasons.

16/17, Blackman, Camara and Weimann 4th, 5th and 6th choice wingers played for less than a combined 1000 minutes. Those should have been given to Bennett (who only played for 23). Lowe was exceptional when he came into the side in 16/17, including a memorable man of the match display vs Wolves. But, he had Forsyth and Olsson on senior player wages so shived down the pecking order.

17/18, Shackell 0 minutes, Butterfield 157, Palmer 426 and Anya 302. Are you telling me Rawson, Hanson and Elsnik couldn't have played those roles and not been just as good? We owned Vydra, Martin, Jerome, Nugent and Bent plus Winnall on loan. We only needed 2 of them, with Jacobsen as backup.

[Leeds Ram]

I think the club's coaching staff have got to plan for league 1 and decide how we integrate the youth players that we think are capable of making the grade or not. This includes making a plan for those who other clubs may want. If I had to guess I'd suggest Buchanan, Bird, and Knight would be the most likely to go but I don't think any of these will go for particularly big money.

This leaves us with Stretton, Plange, Sibley, Ebosele, williams, Cashin, watson, and Thomson off the top of my head. I think if the club thinks these players are good enough to be regulars for league 1 challengers next season then it should begin to give them a bit more game time. This I'd imagine would help in terms of preparation allowing us to adopt a style and a system that will be used next season when we're actively trying to win more games than we're going to lose. 

[Mucker1884]

16 hours ago, Boycie said:

Who do we thank ultimately?

awks.

Is the answer @Footymum2017?  ?‍♂️

[Dimmu]

Scouting team.

Unpopular opinion for sure, but we've signed some brilliant young talents in recent years.

[PistoldPete]

8 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said:

 

The point being those players should have been there as emergency backup in their positions. Sort of like the roles Wes Brown, O'Shea, etc had at Man Utd. Capable of filling in, but not good enoigh as a regular starter - as evidenced when they eventually moved on.

In 15/16, we had Pearce, Shotton and Buxton as 4th, 5th and 6th choice CBs, playing for a total of 261 minutes in the league. Rawson could easily have stepped in as 4th choice instead, and showed he was capable enough based on his loan out to Rotherham. Hanson didn't look out of place in the team yet hardly featured again in following seasons.

16/17, Blackman, Camara and Weimann 4th, 5th and 6th choice wingers played for less than a combined 1000 minutes. Those should have been given to Bennett (who only played for 23). Lowe was exceptional when he came into the side in 16/17, including a memorable man of the match display vs Wolves. But, he had Forsyth and Olsson on senior player wages so shived down the pecking order.

17/18, Shackell 0 minutes, Butterfield 157, Palmer 426 and Anya 302. Are you telling me Rawson, Hanson and Elsnik couldn't have played those roles and not been just as good? We owned Vydra, Martin, Jerome, Nugent and Bent plus Winnall on loan. We only needed 2 of them, with Jacobsen as backup.

Just taking your last point.. we had Vydra , Martin, Jerome, Nugent and Bent plus Winnall on loan. I think Martin and bent were sent out on loan. Winall was injured so we got Jerome in his place.. Jerome scored some important goals back end of season including the winner in the first leg against fulham.  Nugent should probably never have been signed, past his best, oh if we had got Ollie Watkins instead.

 

[Jram]

10 hours ago, PistoldPete said:

And where are any of those players now? Only Lowe is a Championship player now. When Lowe first appeared he wasn't even good enough for that , got roasted in his first few games under Lampard. Maybe we should have got a loan signing in, with Fozzy and Lowe and Buchanan coming through we really didn't need to sign Malone. 

Jakobsen is Preston’s top scorer. Guy, Vernam, Rawson playing in League 2. Zanzala too 

Not to mention Bennett 

I think some of the above could have done a job and, with earlier exposure to championship football, may have become better players/ been motivated to try and become better players (which I think is a large prt of development)

[plymouthram]

What we do have, is a proven academy and probably the best outside the Premiership. Any young talent that is looking to make in football would look at Derby County if their parents had any sense.  Those who went to an Academy side in the Premiership were always up against more competition and its been proven with Luke Plange being released by Arsenal and Louie Watson at West Ham, then improving at Moor Farm.

We have created a top class youth academy that will continue to attract young talent for years to come. The man to take the credit is Darren Wassall.  The manager that brought him to Derby from Burton was Nigel Clough, so he must also take some credit, Nigel was sacked in September 2013 but had stated in the March of 2013 "The Academy should almost be ring fenced and whoever comes in next, I hope they have the sense to leave it alone and let it continue working".  I'm not going to list the players that have made it from academy status to either Premiership, Championship or lower proffesional leagues. The list is quite big, but I will mention one player who I thought could have made it with the Rams, Timi Max Elsnik who made only the 1st team in the Carabao cup but went on loan to a few clubs before being released and is mow playing for Olimpija Lujbljana in the top flight of Slovenia and recently made his debut for Slovenia in Octoberthis year.

[PistoldPete]

10 hours ago, Jram said:

Jakobsen is Preston’s top scorer. Guy, Vernam, Rawson playing in League 2. Zanzala too 

Not to mention Bennett 

I think some of the above could have done a job and, with earlier exposure to championship football, may have become better players/ been motivated to try and become better players (which I think is a large prt of development)

I don’t remember Jacobsen at all. I don’t think he was near the first team was he? Maybe a late developer . Otherwise the rest  are league 2 players now … certainly not Championship players a few years ago.  
 

the academy players coming through now are on a different level. All of those I have seen bird , knight . Buchanan, sibley, Thompson, ebosele, Williams, Watson, plange, Stretton, and probably cashin though not seen enough of him, all of them should have careers at League one or above.

The academy now is much better than it was a few years ago.

[maydrakin]

19 hours ago, Leeds Ram said:

I think the club's coaching staff have got to plan for league 1 and decide how we integrate the youth players that we think are capable of making the grade or not. This includes making a plan for those who other clubs may want. If I had to guess I'd suggest Buchanan, Bird, and Knight would be the most likely to go but I don't think any of these will go for particularly big money.

This leaves us with Stretton, Plange, Sibley, Ebosele, williams, Cashin, watson, and Thomson off the top of my head. I think if the club thinks these players are good enough to be regulars for league 1 challengers next season then it should begin to give them a bit more game time. This I'd imagine would help in terms of preparation allowing us to adopt a style and a system that will be used next season when we're actively trying to win more games than we're going to lose. 

I’m pretty certain that Festy was out of contract last season and signed a 1 year extension, so I wouldn’t be surprised to see some clubs test the water for a potentially cheap bargain.

How much would we likely get in compensation?  A lot less than he’s worth to us, I’d wager…

[angieram]

9 hours ago, plymouthram said:

What we do have, is a proven academy and probably the best outside the Premiership. Any young talent that is looking to make in football would look at Derby County if their parents had any sense.  Those who went to an Academy side in the Premiership were always up against more competition and its been proven with Luke Plange being released by Arsenal and Louie Watson at West Ham, then improving at Moor Farm.

We have created a top class youth academy that will continue to attract young talent for years to come. The man to take the credit is Darren Wassall.  The manager that brought him to Derby from Burton was Nigel Clough, so he must also take some credit, Nigel was sacked in September 2013 but had stated in the March of 2013 "The Academy should almost be ring fenced and whoever comes in next, I hope they have the sense to leave it alone and let it continue working".  I'm not going to list the players that have made it from academy status to either Premiership, Championship or lower proffesional leagues. The list is quite big, but I will mention one player who I thought could have made it with the Rams, Timi Max Elsnik who made only the 1st team in the Carabao cup but went on loan to a few clubs before being released and is mow playing for Olimpija Lujbljana in the top flight of Slovenia and recently made his debut for Slovenia in Octoberthis year.

I agree about Elsnik, he has actually played quite a few times for Slovenia now though.

He's currently injured (again) and I always think this is what held him back here too at the time he should have been pushing for a place. 

[Crewton]

2 hours ago, maydrakin said:

I’m pretty certain that Festy was out of contract last season and signed a 1 year extension, so I wouldn’t be surprised to see some clubs test the water for a potentially cheap bargain.

How much would we likely get in compensation?  A lot less than he’s worth to us, I’d wager…

Ebosele signed a one year extension till June 2023, so he's "protected" to a degree. 

[TheresOnlyWanChope]

11 hours ago, plymouthram said:

What we do have, is a proven academy and probably the best outside the Premiership. Any young talent that is looking to make in football would look at Derby County if their parents had any sense.  Those who went to an Academy side in the Premiership were always up against more competition and its been proven with Luke Plange being released by Arsenal and Louie Watson at West Ham, then improving at Moor Farm.

We have created a top class youth academy that will continue to attract young talent for years to come. The man to take the credit is Darren Wassall.  The manager that brought him to Derby from Burton was Nigel Clough, so he must also take some credit, Nigel was sacked in September 2013 but had stated in the March of 2013 "The Academy should almost be ring fenced and whoever comes in next, I hope they have the sense to leave it alone and let it continue working".  I'm not going to list the players that have made it from academy status to either Premiership, Championship or lower proffesional leagues. The list is quite big, but I will mention one player who I thought could have made it with the Rams, Timi Max Elsnik who made only the 1st team in the Carabao cup but went on loan to a few clubs before being released and is mow playing for Olimpija Lujbljana in the top flight of Slovenia and recently made his debut for Slovenia in Octoberthis year.

Credit also to people like Des Walker who really helped develop the teenage talent. 
Wassall has done a great job and it’s amazing to see so many youngsters given their chance, even though some of it has been enforced with embargo etc. 

[Ramrob]

11 minutes ago, TheresOnlyWanChope said:

Credit also to people like Des Walker who really helped develop the teenage talent. 
Wassall has done a great job and it’s amazing to see so many youngsters given their chance, even though some of it has been enforced with embargo etc. 

Assuming you mean Justin Walker and not the Notts Forest legend?!

[Jram]

3 hours ago, PistoldPete said:

I don’t remember Jacobsen at all. I don’t think he was near the first team was he? Maybe a late developer . Otherwise the rest  are league 2 players now … certainly not Championship players a few years ago.  
 

the academy players coming through now are on a different level. All of those I have seen bird , knight . Buchanan, sibley, Thompson, ebosele, Williams, Watson, plange, Stretton, and probably cashin though not seen enough of him, all of them should have careers at League one or above.

The academy now is much better than it was a few years ago.

I 100% agree the academy products now are brilliant 

But there’s differences to a few years ago- we’re playing at a much higher level in 23s football to where we were 5 or 6 years ago which probably improves them

The academy boys are highly motivated as there are clear routes to first team football which I don’t think the likes of Guy, Vernam etc ever had and that must have affected their drive. Not to mention, I expect there are lots of players in Leagues 1 and 2 who wouldn’t look out of place in the Championship; they just need an opportunity

I do think, however, we’ve recruited better in recent years and that’s possibly because of the 23s and 18s have a brilliant reputation now as well as the obvious lure of likely first team football if you’re any good at all 

[TheresOnlyWanChope]

49 minutes ago, Ramrob said:

Assuming you mean Justin Walker and not the Notts Forest legend?!

No, I meant Des who was with us for a few years although he’s not at the club anymore. But Justin Walker should of course be mentioned too. 

[Ramrob]

1 hour ago, TheresOnlyWanChope said:

No, I meant Des who was with us for a few years although he’s not at the club anymore. But Justin Walker should of course be mentioned too. 

Well, I never knew that WanChope. Learn something new everyday. ?

Thought you’d made a Freudian slip and were a closet Forest fan! ?