Alan Nixon Breaks Silence on American Billionaire Bid

[PistoldPete]

10 hours ago, Rev said:

16 clubs, I think, have taken those loans.

That still leaves 8 who haven't, and may be eyeing up a reduction.

That's why HMRC are going to hardball us.

The 7 that haven't (excluding us) are probably mostly those in receipt of parachute money. Most of them are going for promotion so will not be keen on a 12 point reduction. Nor are they  likely to go into administration when they are getting all that money from Sky. 


 

[Sussex Ram]

10 hours ago, Tyler Durden said:

Why doesn't Morris just pay the tax bill that he racked up and then all of this debate will be a total irrelevance

I believe he is legally prevented from doing so. When placing your company into liquidation, you hand over all control to the administrators- and the club is not your business any longer. As a result, I can’t see any way that Mel Morris could pay HMRC now and them accept that as settlement of the debt. For instance, if any of us called up HMRC today and offered to pay £10 towards Derby’s debt, I don’t think they could accept it (not that I’m about to try and test that!). Now Mel Morris has walked away from the club, he’s treated no differently to us in that regard.

The same goes for all the other creditors- we can’t clear the debts on behalf of Mel or the club. But the St Johns Ambulance fundraiser was outstanding, a touch of class from the fans.

Also, the basis for placing a business in administration is that you can’t pay your debts. So if Mel paid off his debts a couple of months after filing for administration, I suspect that Companies House/HMRC/other creditors/the fraud police (?!) might have some questions about that!

Finally, if Mel had cleared all or part of the HMRC debt before administration, surely we would have failed P&S by an eye-watering amount. To spend c.£28m without corresponding income makes it impossible to limit losses to £13m per year on average.

I am not defending Mel, really I’m not. He should have run this club much smarter, and he sanctioned costs that we’re unsustainable-putting us where we are now. I’m just pointing out that this is a web he spun over a matter of 5 or 6 years, and there’s no easy unravelling of the mess he made.

And there is no excuse for not clearing the St John Ambulance debt and some other amounts owed to local businesses before he left. What damage would £50k or so have done to the DCFC balance sheet? Nothing, relatively speaking. But it might have been crucial income for the charities and local businesses who now stand to receive very little.

[PistoldPete]

3 minutes ago, Sussex Ram said:

I believe he is legally prevented from doing so. When placing your company into liquidation, you hand over all control to the administrators- and the club is not your business any longer. As a result, I can’t see any way that Mel Morris could pay HMRC now and them accept that as settlement of the debt. For instance, if any of us called up HMRC today and offered to pay £10 towards Derby’s debt, I don’t think they could accept it (not that I’m about to try and test that!). Now Mel Morris has walked away from the club, he’s treated no differently to us in that regard.

The same goes for all the other creditors- we can’t clear the debts on behalf of Mel or the club. But the St Johns Ambulance fundraiser was outstanding, a touch of class from the fans.

Also, the basis for placing a business in administration is that you can’t pay your debts. So if Mel paid off his debts a couple of months after filing for administration, I suspect that Companies House/HMRC/other creditors/the fraud police (?!) might have some questions about that!

Finally, if Mel had cleared all or part of the HMRC debt before administration, surely we would have failed P&S by an eye-watering amount. To spend c.£28m without corresponding income makes it impossible to limit losses to £13m per year on average.

I am not defending Mel, really I’m not. He should have run this club much smarter, and he sanctioned costs that we’re unsustainable-putting us where we are now. I’m just pointing out that this is a web he spun over a matter of 5 or 6 years, and there’s no easy unravelling of the mess he made.

And there is no excuse for not clearing the St John Ambulance debt and some other amounts owed to local businesses before he left. What damage would £50k or so have done to the DCFC balance sheet? Nothing, relatively speaking. But it might have been crucial income for the charities and local businesses who now stand to receive very little.

Actually even the St John Ambulance thing you can't just decide I wil pay that in full  because they are nice people but not the other creditors. Giving preference to them rather than HMRC would be dodgy too.

Obviously we all think you should pay your bills. For whatever reason and COVID is certainly one of the a big reasons  these bills went unpaid.

It's the fans who get punished if Derby go under. Not Mel morris. Maybe if we had a licencing system for owners that would be different. But we don't.  I see no reason to punish the fans for any wrongdoing by past owners.

 

 

[Maharan]

8 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Actually even the St John Ambulance thing you can't just decide I wil pay that in full  because they are nice people but not the other creditors. Giving preference to them rather than HMRC would be dodgy too.

Obviously we all think you should pay your bills. For whatever reason and COVID is certainly one of the a big reasons  these bills went unpaid.

It's the fans who get punished if Derby go under. Not Mel morris. Maybe if we had a licencing system for owners that would be different. But we don't.  I see no reason to punish the fans for any wrongdoing by past owners.

 

 

The problem is if there was no penalty levied against the club then I suspect there would be owners up and down the country seriously considering walking away to avoid their liabilities. 

[kevinhectoring]

11 hours ago, Abu Derby said:

Why am I seeing scantily clad ladies on this thread? Mrs Derby thinks I’m on a site of ill repute. 
How do I remove these ads? Please h look as my days are numbered. 

Even when Mrs Derby is out, it’s probably  wise not to hover for too long over your favourites -  you might get bombarded by more of the same. 

[PistoldPete]

27 minutes ago, Maharan said:

The problem is if there was no penalty levied against the club then I suspect there would be owners up and down the country seriously considering walking away to avoid their liabilities. 

But according to many on here, Morris has walked away and has avoided his liabilities... and any penalties.  SO how does punishing the club stop any other owner of any other club doing the same thing?  

Edited December 6, 2021 by PistoldPete

[Crewton]

11 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

But according to many on here, Morris has walked away and has avoided his liabilities... and any penalties.  SO how does punishing the club stop any other owner of any other club doing the same thing?  

Exactly. 

[duncanjwitham]

The whole point of a Limited company is to shield the owners from being liable for debts that a company runs up. Unless the EFL want to start mandating that clubs cannot be Limited companies, there's very little that can be done to stop it.  And I can't imagine there's much desire to go down that route, especially since the people that would need to sign off on it are the club owners themselves.

[Carnero]

1 hour ago, Sussex Ram said:

Finally, if Mel had cleared all or part of the HMRC debt before administration, surely we would have failed P&S by an eye-watering amount. To spend c.£28m without corresponding income makes it impossible to limit losses to £13m per year on average.

Paying HMRC doesn't increase losses.

[atherstoneram]

12 hours ago, PistoldPete said:

footbal clubs have always been treated unlike other businesses. They don't make profits like other businesses. Football clubs pay silly wages, which is actually very good for HMRC. 

That's why the government changed the ruling on HMRC status regarding football after a long battle to get it changed. Now they don't have to accept what they are offered whereas before they had no option.

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

44 minutes ago, Carnero said:

Paying HMRC doesn't increase losses.

Exactly. The debt is already accounted for at the time of the wages transaction.

[atherstoneram]

23 hours ago, Crewton said:

It's "worth" whatever the buyer wants to pay for it and whatever the seller will accept. Its value for accounting purposes is a separate matter and, I think, the rules have been changed so that any profit or liability arising from its transfer is outside of FFP calculations. 

If, as suggestions have been made MM is now skint,why on earth would he sell the club for a quarter of what he paid for it or even give it back for free,he would want to recoup as much as he could surely.And before anyone says he wants to give something back to the club,that ship has long sailed.

[Tamworthram]

1 hour ago, PistoldPete said:

But according to many on here, Morris has walked away and has avoided his liabilities... and any penalties.  SO how does punishing the club stop any other owner of any other club doing the same thing?  

I guess the answer is, and I’m not suggesting any of us should shed a tear for Mel, is that he isn’t walking away Scott free. None of us know the true figures but I suspect he has lost a fair bit of money from the whole experience. Having said that, and I profess to not knowing any of the real details, the bigger risk is when new “owners” are not using their own money. Didn’t the Man Utd owners borrow a load of money against the club? So, maybe something does need to change.

[TheresOnlyWanChope]

22 minutes ago, atherstoneram said:

If, as suggestions have been made MM is now skint,why on earth would he sell the club for a quarter of what he paid for it or even give it back for free,he would want to recoup as much as he could surely.And before anyone says he wants to give something back to the club,that ship has long sailed.

Exactly this. Maybe he’s tried to drive a hard bargain and people have walked away - with the debts etc.

If Derby get liquidated, can he sell Pride Park stadium land for flats/ houses and make money that way? If there is no buyer. 

[Betty Swollocks]

40 minutes ago, TheresOnlyWanChope said:

Exactly this. Maybe he’s tried to drive a hard bargain and people have walked away - with the debts etc.

If Derby get liquidated, can he sell Pride Park stadium land for flats/ houses and make money that way? If there is no buyer. 

You wont be able to build houses on PP. Its categorised as a business park I believe so you could only turn it into factories/warehouses/hotels/offices etc.

[Carnero]

4 minutes ago, Betty Swollocks said:

You wont be able to build houses on PP. Its categorised as a business park I believe so you could only turn it into factories/warehouses/hotels/offices etc.

It would also require Council planning permission despite vociferous opposition from tens of thousands of angry supporters.

Never going to happen!

[Crewton]

1 hour ago, atherstoneram said:

If, as suggestions have been made MM is now skint,why on earth would he sell the club for a quarter of what he paid for it or even give it back for free,he would want to recoup as much as he could surely.And before anyone says he wants to give something back to the club,that ship has long sailed.

To get MSD off his back. And if no-one buys the club because they can't get the stadium for a reasonable price, it's unlikely anyone else is going to take the stadium off his hands for even a quarter of the 2018 valuation, I think. 

Guesswork on my part, admittedly. 

[TheresOnlyWanChope]

13 minutes ago, Betty Swollocks said:

You wont be able to build houses on PP. Its categorised as a business park I believe so you could only turn it into factories/warehouses/hotels/offices etc.

Same question applies then. Could Morris make a lot of money if it’s sold for land as places of business? 

[Betty Swollocks]

12 minutes ago, TheresOnlyWanChope said:

Same question applies then. Could Morris make a lot of money if it’s sold for land as places of business? 

Not enough to cover what he owes to MSD?

[i-Ram]

11 minutes ago, Betty Swollocks said:

Not enough to cover what he owes to MSD?

How much to convert it to a conference\events area (a la Greenwich O2). Not a significant sum perhaps depending on the type of roof structure used.