v Stoke City (H) - Matchday Thread

[desirelines]

What’s the general vibe? Good to get another point and a clean sheet and remain unbeaten? Or another two points dropped and concerns over scoring goals? Or both? 

[jono]

3 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

Maybe but it’s easy to form such a view with Rams tinted glasses on. 
 

All a matter of opinion of course but, I don’t remember whilst watching the game, thinking he was particularly bad (except for the error thinking Buchanan had dived which he cleared up the best he could) or favouring Stoke.

I didn’t really notice him until the Buchanan incident .. which for means he must have done pretty much ok. 
Buchanan apart (and let’s be honest Lee was going down softly .. but got crunched before he hit the ground ) .. the only poor one I noticed was towards the end where Joz gave away a free kick on the right, but lost the ball in a tussle leading up to it he got a full knee in his guts which just didn’t get seen. And I don’t think it was accidental .. there was follow through. Dirty play in my book. But the ref was blind sided and they can’t get every one right 

[May Contain Nuts]

In a VAR led game it's 90, 95%  a penalty

Doesn't get anywhere near the ball knocks Buchanan off his feet.

It's ludicrous to even think Buchanan could have been sent off from the incident.

It's exactly the sort of thing we've had go against but not for us this season. The idea that decisions even themselves out is such a load of poo unless we get 3-5 massive decisions in outrfavour in crucial games later down the line.

Buchanan himself will feel massively aggrieved considering the penalty given against him by some bloody dufus earlier in the season.

[Spanish]

2 minutes ago, Coconut said:

In a VAR led game it's 90, 95%  a penalty

Doesn't get anywhere near the ball knocks Buchanan off his feet.

It's ludicrous to even think Buchanan could have been sent off from the incident.

 

Champion of var are you?

[jono]

Just now, Coconut said:

In a VAR led game it's 90, 95%  a penalty

Doesn't get anywhere near the ball knocks Buchanan off his feet.

It's ludicrous to even think Buchanan could have been sent off from the incident.

 

Sort of ... but look at Lee, look at his body movement .. he reckoned he was going to get clattered and made himself ready to dive ... it wasn’t a foul at that point.... it might would have been a foul if he’d held back for 0.5 of a second .. but he didn’t .. if you are a Derby fan then Lee’s timing was off, but a Stoke fan would say he was being theatrical, clever or worse. 

[Ram-Alf]

13 minutes ago, desirelines said:

What’s the general vibe? Good to get another point and a clean sheet and remain unbeaten? Or another two points dropped and concerns over scoring goals? Or both? 

Both ?

[Mafiabob]

19 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

But it wasn’t a crucial moment that turned the game. It wasn’t a penalty (IMO) and wasn’t a dive/sending off either.

Regarding making a song and dance, how so? Surely he just accepted his error and corrected it. A weaker ref might well have just stuck with original incorrect decision and sent Buchanan off.

Imagine the carnage then on social media then. He managed the best out of a bad situation he got himself in to. Thought he was sound otherwise 
 

 

[Mafiabob]

10 minutes ago, Coconut said:

In a VAR led game it's 90, 95%  a penalty

Doesn't get anywhere near the ball knocks Buchanan off his feet.

It's ludicrous to even think Buchanan could have been sent off from the incident.

It's exactly the sort of thing we've had go against but not for us this season. The idea that decisions even themselves out is such a load of poo unless we get 3-5 massive decisions in outrfavour in crucial games later down the line.

Buchanan himself will feel massively aggrieved considering the penalty given against him by some bloody dufus earlier in the season.

You have to be 100% certain it’s a pen and not 90-95%.

It really is swings and roundabouts with decisions. 95-96% of the hundreds of decisions officials make are correct and that’s at a blink of the eye.

I would have refs mic’d up like rugby, this will make things clearer, even if you think it’s wrong - you’ll get understanding from decisions, more respect and dissent will pretty much cease

[europia]

25 minutes ago, desirelines said:

What’s the general vibe? Good to get another point and a clean sheet and remain unbeaten? Or another two points dropped and concerns over scoring goals? Or both? 

Stoke City were there for the taking, no question. Good not to lose at home but our lack of goal threat suggests difficult times ahead. It now looks like we are going to have to rely on beating the other struggling teams in the division to have any chance of avoiding relegation.  

[May Contain Nuts]

28 minutes ago, Spanish said:

Champion of var are you?

Not at all, but this wasn't a marginal decision based on lines drawn on a screen 2mm apart, which is where VAR is most farcical.

Even without VAR you'd see exactly the same situation given as a penalty more often than not, IMO

I wonder if it had been the other way round whether you'd have said something like "We can't complain, unfortunately Buchanan gave the referee decision to make" - I've certainly seen similar for a penalty given against Max Lowe (when it was a blatant dive) and one not given against Matt Clarke where he made a perfectly timed tackle but still got criticised for it ("we were lucky Clarke didn't concede a penalty')

 

18 minutes ago, Mafiabob said:

You have to be 100% certain it’s a pen and not 90-95%.

It really is swings and roundabouts with decisions. 95-96% of the hundreds of decisions officials make are correct and that’s at a blink of the eye.

I would have refs mic’d up like rugby, this will make things clearer, even if you think it’s wrong - you’ll get understanding from decisions, more respect and dissent will pretty much cease

Accepted, but I'm not on about the ref being 90-100% sure and how he judges it in the moment - just pointing out how the decision would usually go under review.

I said during the game that the ref deserved credit/defending for taking the time to sort it out an explain it to the players, whether I agreed with the ultimate decision or not.

[rynny]

34 minutes ago, Coconut said:

It's exactly the sort of thing we've had go against but not for us this season. The idea that decisions even themselves out is such a load of poo unless we get 3-5 massive decisions in outrfavour in crucial games later down the line.

And we are still about 5 decisions down from last season as well. 

[Spanish]

1 minute ago, Coconut said:

Not at all, but this wasn't a marginal decision based on lines drawn on a screen 2mm apart, which is where VAR is most farcical.

Even without VAR you'd see exactly the same situation given as a penalty more often than not, IMO

I wonder if it had been the other way round whether you'd have said something like "We can't complain, unfortunately Buchanan gave the referee decision to make" - I've certainly seen similar for a penalty given against Max Lowe (when it was a blatant dive) and one not given against Matt Clarke where he made a perfectly times tackle but still got criticised for it.

 

Accepted, but I'm not on about the ref being 90-100% sure and how he judges it in the moment - just pointing out how the decision would usually go under review.

I said during the game that the ref deserved credit/defending for taking the time to sort it out an explain it to the players, whether I agreed with the ultimate decision or not.

Just not a pen for me, the ref had made his mind up that there was going to be simulation based I guess that Buchanan had lost control of the ball.  Perhaps if he hadn’t  he may have given the pen.  In mid week there were a couple of occasions where our defenders got between the ball and the man just good defending

[Rev]

We've improved since Rooney took charge, no doubt.

Mostly because Bielik is fit, and we no longer have to play Rooney himself.

I don't think that makes Wayne shoe in for next manager, mind.

[ossieram]

2 minutes ago, Spanish said:

In mid week there were a couple of occasions where our defenders got between the ball and the man just good defending

He didn't get between the man and the ball though. He came from the side and took Buchanan down without getting near to touching the ball.

[DavesaRam]

If we were in a rich vein of form, playing to what we are capable of, then today we threw away two points. The truth is that 6 matches ago we couldn't even pass the ball to our own players, couldn't defend for toffee and seemed to have an aversion for the opposition's half of the pitch, so to do what we have so far under Rooney is actually pretty good. For both season-starts under Cocu many of us said that if we saw progress being made, we wold be happy.

SO: Question: Are we happy?

We are much more solid in defence, and I don't have heart palpitations every time we have to defend a corner or free-kick, and our midfield have remembered how to move the ball forwards with intent. The main differences are that when we get the ball, passing it backwards or sideways isn't the first choice. Now, when we do go to the side or backwards, it is because of patient build up, rather than not having a clue what else to do, and although we could do better, we are starting to get players wanting to get into the area in the hope of the ball getting there, instead of trying to get there once the ball has already arrived.

It might be worth remembering that this squad of players have had a season and a half of Cocu's "watch out, they might shout "Boo" at you" ingrained into them, and it doesn't disappeared over night, although a fairly good vanishing trick has already been performed. This might be why Max Bird isn't reaching the heights of his early performances, and for which he has been pilloried on here. Someone has likened him to "Butterfield Light", but Butterfield was actually a good player for us until Clement climbed inside his head, and he never recovered.

The Rams TV voices thought that Lawrence looked better on the right than on the left, which was true, but sadly Tom never recovered from the clash of ankles in an early attack. I have to admit, often when he gets a clattering he disappears out of the game, but kept on going for quite some time, and clearly didn't want to go off. I wasn't able to watch Wednesday's match, but it seems that Beilik is becoming a bit of a monster for us in midfield, with influence increasing all the time. I don't think that Sibley should have come on in place of Whittaker, because he should already have been on. Why he isn't getting starts, I don't known, because he brings a whole chunk of influence when he finally does get on, and only bringing Ibe on for 5 minutes was, wuite frankly, silly. I am also baffled why we insist on having two defensive midfielders on at all times. So far, I haven't seen a team we couldn't have beaten, with some teams absoutley sitting ducks, but we keep on setting the team up in fear of the opposition. Com on Wayne, we shojld be causing them to make a mess in their shorts, not the other way round. Let's grasp the nettle and set the team up to have a real go! Beilik as the sole DM will allow us to go 4-3-3, and suddenly we have numbers in midfield, and the chance to overload the opposition penalty area. Come on, it's worth a punt.

So despite dropping a load of points, I am happy simply because we are making progress, and despite being where we are because we should be, we have enough in the squad to more than get out of the relegation zone.

[Spanish]

1 minute ago, ossieram said:

He didn't get between the man and the ball though. He came from the side and took Buchanan down without getting near to touching the ball.

Krap I’m not here to defend the ref or the opposition, bugger it, it was a clear penalty 

[ossieram]

2 minutes ago, Spanish said:

Krap I’m not here to defend the ref or the opposition, bugger it, it was a clear penalty 

My powers of persuation astound even me sometimes.

[rynny]

50 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

Maybe but it’s easy to form such a view with Rams tinted glasses on. 
 

All a matter of opinion of course but, I don’t remember whilst watching the game, thinking he was particularly bad (except for the error thinking Buchanan had dived which he cleared up the best he could) or favouring Stoke.

I like to think I'm fair and admit if we get more decisions than we should. 

I gave the one example of the Stoke player not getting booked for the same type of foul as all 3 of our bookings, stopping a counter attack, which a different Stoke player got booked for as well.

[Taribo]

10 minutes ago, Coconut said:

Even without VAR you'd see exactly the same situation given as a penalty more often than not, IMO

IMO is the operative phrase here - IMO it wasn’t a pen (or a dive) and VAR in IMO wouldn’t have given either more often than not. 

IMO the ref reactively blew then instantly knew he’d made a mistake 

[Ghost of Clough]

If that collision happened anywhere else on the pitch we'd all expect a free kick to be awarded in favour of Buchanan. For that reason, it's a penalty.