The Politics Thread 2020

[TramRam]

1 hour ago, GboroRam said:

I keep hearing this is what the left/remainers said but honestly all I heard was all the racists voted leave. And lets be honest, there was a fair amount of anti immigrant rhetoric going around, whether it was against Merkel, about WW2 (no surrender!), about the Turkish coming in droves - I don't recall much in the remain camp attracting anti foreigner sentiment. Happy to review if you can find me something.

I wouldn't be surprised if much of the twitter/facebook/insert your favourite social media platform race-bashing wasn't co-ordinated from Russia, but it certainly proved to be popular with some people.

Please have a read of this, It's from Febuary 2019 by Gloria De Piero ex Labour MP for Ashfield and why some voted for Brexit...it was eye opening for me from a Labour MP at the time.

 

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2019/02/i-talked-my-leave-voting-constituents-about-brexit-what-i-learnt

 

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

9 minutes ago, Highgate said:

I didn't expect Michael Collins to appear in this thread and especially not at this point.  I don't quite follow the thrust of your point, what does Churchill's 1921 Treaty negotiations with Collins (during which Churchill and Lloyd George threatened to re-invade Ireland and start a war both 'immediate and terrible' if Collins didn't sign) have to do with the BLM protests and Boris' response to them ?

if you read the whole post its to do with everyone seemingly having a common ground and then after the event some thinking there ok with a decision -some not . That's a lot of people to satisfy isn't it.   The ramifications of any decision making can lead to worse problems.  Perhaps ' immediate and terrible destruction of property and bloodshed' if something deemed important is missed.  Collins decision to sign that treaty was a decision that was based on work with this now in the hope of getting a bit more later .  De Valera then made him enemy number 1 advising the treaty was signed basically without his say so . Civil war ensues.  With so many people voicing what they want, some more demanding than others who makes decision on thousands of people going forward, how many will be happy. Snap soundbites ten seconds after the event never go well.

That ok .

[GboroRam]

12 minutes ago, TramRam said:

Please have a read of this, It's from Febuary 2019 by Gloria De Piero ex Labour MP for Ashfield and why some voted for Brexit...it was eye opening for me from a Labour MP at the time.

 

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2019/02/i-talked-my-leave-voting-constituents-about-brexit-what-i-learnt

 

Thanks. Got halfway through and couldn't work out what your point was. What is it you're trying to explain to me (other than why voters abandoned Labour to see Brexit done)? Does it have any relevance to the racism comment (other than to agree with me, not everyone voted for Brexit because they're racist)?

Agree with @Highgate - of course there will be some racists who voted to remain. But some the arguments used to vote leave came with very unpleasant tones. I don't recall anything the same with remain. Not even sure what argument could be used to vote remain to grab the racist vote, come to think of it.

[maxjam]

1 hour ago, Highgate said:

It's continuing the political and economic status quo that would be truly insane.  Catastrophic environmental problems await if something isn't done urgently.  If governments behaved rationally and actually had the long-term interests of the people at heart, each an every one of them would be working on producing and implementing it's own Green New Deal.

 

15 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

I think this is a step down from your usual standard of well-reasoned, statistics-backed arguments.

Being against the use of animals as food and supporting the reduction of plane emissions is hardly 'loony'.

 

The major problem with The Green New Deal was that it tried to deliver Utopia now - it tried to run a marathon in record time before it could walk

https://www.economist.com/democracy-in-america/2019/02/11/the-problem-with-the-green-new-deal

I agree that we should take more care of the environment.  Its probably my #1 concern tbh - I have often said if we had a PR system I would vote Green.  The Green New Deal was far to radical though, not only did it cost trillions it promoted things such as banning all air travel, banning nuclear power, moving to 100% green energy, retrofitting every building in America, banning meat, giving away free money for those that don't want to work, etc.

Utopian ideas with little practical thought put into them.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/judeclemente/2019/04/29/five-practical-problems-for-the-green-new-deal/#449917553e8a

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/01/15/the-trouble-with-the-green-new-deal-223977

[Comrade 86]

34 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

I think this is a step down from your usual standard of well-reasoned, statistics-backed arguments.

You must be new around here ?

[maxjam]

 

30 minutes ago, Highgate said:

How on earth would you come to that conclusion?   Just how 'uninitiated' are these people you have in mind ?  It's really simple logic.

 

Because to a lot of people saying 'all racists voted leave' implies that voting leave was therefore racist.

If I call out the 'loony left' some people immediately take offence, despite not calling anyone on here loony - just the policies and the narrative that are being championed by the Democrats/Labour and media.

[King Kevin]

40 minutes ago, TramRam said:

Please have a read of this, It's from Febuary 2019 by Gloria De Piero ex Labour MP for Ashfield and why some voted for Brexit...it was eye opening for me from a Labour MP at the time.

 

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2019/02/i-talked-my-leave-voting-constituents-about-brexit-what-i-learnt

 

 We will never get a Labour government without assembling a coalition of the working class and the liberal middle class

She was doing alright until this ,she clearly cannot grasp that the country has had a belly full of the liberal middle class .

 

[maxjam]

19 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

Thanks. Got halfway through and couldn't work out what your point was. What is it you're trying to explain to me (other than why voters abandoned Labour to see Brexit done)? Does it have any relevance to the racism comment (other than to agree with me, not everyone voted for Brexit because they're racist)?

 

Which is why the left continue to lose, unless it agrees with their existing ideology they don't want to look into understanding the problem.

Paragraph nr the bottom of the article;

'We are all entitled to different views but a split on the left will kill us and the sooner we realise that the better. We will never get a Labour government without assembling a coalition of the working class and the liberal middle class.'

- Tell the working class they are thick idiots and don't expect them to vote Labour, oh wait they didn't.

- Tell the world it needs a fanciful far left Green New Deal and don't be surprised when people scratch their heads in disbelief.

[WhiteHorseRam]

1 hour ago, TuffLuff said:

I’ll just cut in and say that Marc Owen Jones is an excellent twitter follow for those who are inclined (he possibly has a derbyshire connection, he was defo tweeting about being here around Christmas, so there’s extra incentive to be interested in him). He’s looking into targeted press attacks online and where certain hashtags come from and their influence. This thread is an interesting look into that.
 

Edit Might be of interest to @GboroRam’s point earlier today

I had a read of his thread. No properly of course, just a lazy skim read. ?

Its interesting .... some people seem to be objecting to the BBC not reporting ENOUGH protester violence ... is that because they think the BBC is not telling the truth/giving a full picture, or that the BBC didn't show  more inflammatory stuff that would have right wing nutters turning up to join in and a full scale battle erupting?

I thought the coverage of the statue going for a swim was blow-by-blow. As it has dominated a lot of the chat here (and elsewhere) I would say the BBC has helped quite badly derail the BLM's strength of sensible message. If I was one of the peaceful protesters I would be gutted tbh.

Considering the floppy (or sensible, depending on your view) Police response a more restrained reporting was probably a good thing.

 

[TramRam]

23 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

Thanks. Got halfway through and couldn't work out what your point was. What is it you're trying to explain to me (other than why voters abandoned Labour to see Brexit done)? Does it have any relevance to the racism comment (other than to agree with me, not everyone voted for Brexit because they're racist)?

Agree with @Highgate - of course there will be some racists who voted to remain. But some the arguments used to vote leave came with very unpleasant tones. I don't recall anything the same with remain. Not even sure what argument could be used to vote remain to grab the racist vote, come to think of it.

She found racism was low on the reasons why her voters voted for Brexit, It was a them and us situation, Where the gap has grown bigger since, Where her voters said Westminster say one thing but do another, There is no trust in our system, Where the EU looked to be a private club.

It's how she was ostracsized by her own party for daring to go against Labour policy and agree with her constituants, How only 3% of the then  serving MPs were from working stock, How people didn't believe in Corbyn.

Just a small sample of working class peoples thoughts on Politics.

[GboroRam]

13 minutes ago, maxjam said:

 

Which is why the left continue to lose, unless it agrees with their existing ideology they don't want to look into understanding the problem.

Paragraph nr the bottom of the article;

'We are all entitled to different views but a split on the left will kill us and the sooner we realise that the better. We will never get a Labour government without assembling a coalition of the working class and the liberal middle class.'

- Tell the working class they are thick idiots and don't expect them to vote Labour, oh wait they didn't.

- Tell the world it needs a fanciful far left Green New Deal and don't be surprised when people scratch their heads in disbelief.

The conversation was about if all brexit voters are racist, not why leave won. I'm not interested in analysing Brexit again, I think we've done it to death over the last 3 years. Time to get it done and come back with a fantastic deal! Can't wait ?

[Eddie]

41 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

Not even sure what argument could be used to vote remain to grab the racist vote, come to think of it.

Something something autocracy something unelected government?

You know how some people seem to like dictatorships.

[WhiteHorseRam]

7 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Something something autocracy something unelected government?

You should go on Twitter mate ?

[Rev]

1 hour ago, TramRam said:

Please have a read of this, It's from Febuary 2019 by Gloria De Piero ex Labour MP for Ashfield and why some voted for Brexit...it was eye opening for me from a Labour MP at the time.

 

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2019/02/i-talked-my-leave-voting-constituents-about-brexit-what-i-learnt

 

If you want me to open my eyes to Gloria De Piero, I'm going to need pictures not words!

[maxjam]

17 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

The conversation was about if all brexit voters are racist, not why leave won. I'm not interested in analysing Brexit again, I think we've done it to death over the last 3 years. Time to get it done and come back with a fantastic deal! Can't wait ?

No, the conversation was about my use of 'loony left', I bought Brexit and The Green New Deal into it as examples of the left moving away from the middle - or to put it another way, the left moving away from the majority of their voter base.

By pushing the narrative that the Brexit vote was racially motivated and ignoring the opinions of large swathes of their traditional voter base, Labour effectively shot themselves in the foot and handed the Tories the ability to do whatever they want and get away with whatever they can for the next 5 years.  If that isn't loony, I don't know what is...

[Highgate]

14 minutes ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

if you read the whole post its to do with everyone seemingly having a common ground and then after the event some thinking there ok with a decision -some not . That's a lot of people to satisfy isn't it.   The ramifications of any decision making can lead to worse problems.  Perhaps ' immediate and terrible destruction of property and bloodshed' if something deemed important is missed.  Collins decision to sign that treaty was a decision that was based on work with this now in the hope of getting a bit more later .  De Valera then made him enemy number 1 advising the treaty was signed basically without his say so . Civil war ensues.  With so many people voicing what they want, some more demanding than others who makes decision on thousands of people going forward, how many will be happy. Snap soundbites ten seconds after the event never go well.

That ok .

Oh, I had read the whole post, I just quoted part of it.  I'm just struggling to understand the direct similarities here. I see and agree with your general point that in any movement, be it an independence movement or that calling for racial equality, there will exist a diversity of opinions.  Measures attempting to address the issue that will often satisfy some will not satisfy others.  That much is true, certainly.  But why the 1921 Treaty negotiations are particularly relevant I'm less clear on.

Leaders really should speak at times of crisis and unrest, that's an essential part of being a leader. All Boris had to do really, and I haven't watched what he said, was acknowledge that problems with racism in the UK still exist, sympathize with those still suffer because of it (a bit tricky in Boris' case given his own unfortunate comments in the past) and agree that the cause of the protesters is a just one, both in terms of lingering if lessened institutional racism and because of the everyday personal racism.  Then reassure the protesters that they are being listened to and if he could lay out some broad policies to tackle the problems then all the better.  I don't know if that would have helped...but it would have been the right thing for him to do.  The problem Boris' would face is whether people would trust him to do the things he said he would do.  Boris is not exactly synonymous with honesty and sincerity.

The situation facing Collins was quite different.  Sign this Treaty now and you will get for your country some, but not all of your demands nor the full sovereignty you desire.  Don't sign it and we will invade and occupy your country again with such overwhelming force that there is no way you'll be able to defend yourselves.  Make the decision now, you don't have the time to consult with De Valera, as we will withdraw the offer if there is any delay.  And as you rightly pointed out and Collins correctly predicted, the former option was also likely to mean his own death.  As difficult a situation as Boris is in right now, I think he has it slightly easier than Collins had. 

[ariotofmyown]

3 hours ago, maxjam said:

Nope, identity politics is the bane of our lives. 

I think identity politics might be the bane of your life. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say "identity politics" in real life. Or "culture wars". Or "antifa". 

In other real life chat, over the past 3 or 4 years, if I've ever discussed Brexit with someone who voted leave, I just say I'm worried that loads of people will lose their jobs. The leaver usually just shrugs and doesn't really respond, almost like they didn't really think about that possibility.

[ramit]

6 minutes ago, reverendo de duivel said:

If you want me to open my eyes to Gloria De Piero, I'm going to need pictures not words!

 

[Sith Happens]

Sexist pigs ?

[WhiteHorseRam]

@GboroRam Get a grip of this ... they'll go blind