Stive Pesley Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 4 minutes ago, maxjam said: Nope, identity politics is the bane of our lives The bane? Do we need a poll? Might be the bane of your life because you seem a bit obsessed with it. I don't even think about it (apart from when you bring it up) So you're being a a tad dramatic perhaps? But on principle - you saying "black riots are happening because of identity politics" is about as tone-deaf as you can get right now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GboroRam Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 15 minutes ago, maxjam said: Well when the loony left stop being loony and wanting us all to stop eating meat and flying planes etc I might. All they seem to want to do presently is shut down opposing views and push wacky agendas that alienate themselves from the masses. Then moan that the Tories/Trump are in power ? Considering how may people are part of the loony left (BLM activists, feminists, snowflakes, SJWs, actors, public servants, vegetarians, journalists, gays and lesbians, peace activists, gun law enforcement protestors, Antifa, union members, millenials etc. etc. etc.)... ...why do we keep electing the same right wing governments? We should be walking into power! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: Well at least that means I, and every one of my left-leaning friends are not "loony" in your eyes. We all eat meat and don't have any interest in telling people what they should/shouldn't eat. We all (used to) fly on holidays regularly, and don't have any interest in telling others the wrongs/rights of that I'm fairly certain I've never called anyone a loony leftie on here - when I say that I'm generally talking about the Democrats, sometimes Labour and quite often the media. 4 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: We don't "shut-down" opposing views. We might disagree, and we might argue against - but that's not the same thing Again I'm largely talking about the media. #alllivesmatter has got people removed from their jobs in recent days. 'White silence is compliance' or 'silence is violence' amongst others are terms being thrown around readily atm to ensure that there is no debate. 8 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: We don't have any "wacky agendas" The Green New Deal was fairly wacky... 9 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: I see all these behaviours you describe in a minority of people online - but it's tiny. Certainly doesn't warrant the kind of amplification you continue to give it Alternatively they were potential Democrat policy and media manipulation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comrade 86 Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 25 minutes ago, maxjam said: Not sure what post you took offence to me applauding? You know perfectly well. It was one of C-Stands about the old chap pushed over by riot cops. C-Stand suggested it was his fault, what did he expect and and he should have know better and got what he deserved. You applauded the sentiment. 25 minutes ago, maxjam said: You tagged me in your post as 'wading in' which I thought was unfair. Fair enough - sorry! Is that better? 25 minutes ago, maxjam said: So never the twain shall meet? Thats it then, close the topic, no point debating anything anymore. Never the twain shall meet allegedly means the opposite but that aside, I mean that discussions between you and I are pointless. It's not the case with most other folk and there's certainly no need to close the topic. These little melodramatic outbursts are becoming quite tiresome too. 25 minutes ago, maxjam said: Because its a discussion board? If you don't want to discuss why both partaking? Maybe what you're really after is an echo chamber? No, no echo-chamber required thanks and as I pointed out, you are welcome to respond. I've just said I probably wouldn't reply, though at present, I am. 25 minutes ago, maxjam said: Maybe I will when I get time - theres a lot to go through though. And it wouldn't be a personal attack if I did, it would be out of interest to see why the 2 sets of data are so different. Matters not to me either way, dear chap. Attack, don't, whatever really. 22 minutes ago, maxjam said: Well when the loony left stop being loony and wanting us all to stop eating meat and flying planes etc I might. All they seem to want to do presently is shut down opposing views and push wacky agendas that alienate themselves from the masses. Then moan that the Tories/Trump are in power That most likely sounds a lot cleverer and funnier in your head than it reads old chap. I'll ignore the loony left label and resist the urge to respond in kind because I know how sensitive you get about name-calling. One day though matey, you'll have to acknowledge what everyone else sees and simply admit, if only to yourself, that you politics are a mile right of centre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 4 minutes ago, GboroRam said: Considering how may people are part of the loony left (BLM activists, feminists, snowflakes, SJWs, actors, public servants, vegetarians, journalists, gays and lesbians, peace activists, gun law enforcement protestors, Antifa, union members, millenials etc. etc. etc.)... ...why do we keep electing the same right wing governments? We should be walking into power! I dunno, its a mystery innit. Maybe if extremists weren't pushing the agenda the left would be able to get more votes from the middle ground. Brexit was a classic example - 'everyone that voted leave is a thick racist, oh and by the way don't forget to vote for us!!!' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 14 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: The bane? Do we need a poll? Might be the bane of your life because you seem a bit obsessed with it. I don't even think about it (apart from when you bring it up) https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/14/identity-politics-right-left-trump-racism There are many, many articles on t'internet highlighting the dangers of identity politics. TBH with the left as far to the left as they are currently I hope nobody reads them as its helping to keep them out of power ? However I would like to see the Right held accountable and maybe use my vote at some point in the future. 19 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: But on principle - you saying "black riots are happening because of identity politics" is about as tone-deaf as you can get right now If you had said protest instead of riots I would agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TramRam Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 21 minutes ago, GboroRam said: Considering how may people are part of the loony left (BLM activists, feminists, snowflakes, SJWs, actors, public servants, vegetarians, journalists, gays and lesbians, peace activists, gun law enforcement protestors, Antifa, union members, millenials etc. etc. etc.)... ...why do we keep electing the same right wing governments? We should be walking into power! Because you were all out there protesting on election day, We snook in the back door ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 19 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said: You know perfectly well. It was one of C-Stands about the old chap pushed over by riot cops. C-Stand suggested it was his fault, what did he expect and and he should have know better and got what he deserved. You applauded the sentiment. Vaguely recall the post and seem to remember being in two minds about liking it at the time. Just had a quick skim through 20 odd pages and can't find it - probably just missed it or didn't go back far enough. I think my like was given more for the general conversation that was going on at the time though about the disturbances going on and not getting in the way of riot police marching down the street. 25 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said: Never the twain shall meet allegedly means the opposite but that aside, I mean that discussions between you and I are pointless. It's not the case with most other folk and there's certainly no need to close the topic. These little melodramatic outbursts are becoming quite tiresome too. No, no echo-chamber required thanks and as I pointed out, you are welcome to respond. I've just said I probably wouldn't reply, though at present, I am. Matters not to me either way, dear chap. Attack, don't, whatever really. That most likely sounds a lot cleverer and funnier in your head than it reads old chap. I'll ignore the loony left label and resist the urge to respond in kind because I know how sensitive you get about name-calling. One day though matey, you'll have to acknowledge what everyone else sees and simply admit, if only to yourself, that you politics are a mile right of centre. As the for rest its probably best if we leave it here, as you say we likely won't agree on much. I do however think that its less to do with myself being a mile right of centre and others perhaps being a mile left of centre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GboroRam Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 33 minutes ago, maxjam said: 'everyone that voted leave is a thick racist' I keep hearing this is what the left/remainers said but honestly all I heard was all the racists voted leave. And lets be honest, there was a fair amount of anti immigrant rhetoric going around, whether it was against Merkel, about WW2 (no surrender!), about the Turkish coming in droves - I don't recall much in the remain camp attracting anti foreigner sentiment. Happy to review if you can find me something. I wouldn't be surprised if much of the twitter/facebook/insert your favourite social media platform race-bashing wasn't co-ordinated from Russia, but it certainly proved to be popular with some people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 54 minutes ago, maxjam said: The Green New Deal was fairly wacky... It's continuing the political and economic status quo that would be truly insane. Catastrophic environmental problems await if something isn't done urgently. If governments behaved rationally and actually had the long-term interests of the people at heart, each an every one of them would be working on producing and implementing it's own Green New Deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 14 minutes ago, GboroRam said: I keep hearing this is what the left/remainers said but honestly all I heard was all the racists voted leave. Which perpetuates the lie that all leavers are racist to the uninitiated would it not? Something I'm sure you yourself wouldn't want to promote. 14 minutes ago, GboroRam said: And lets be honest, there was a fair amount of anti immigrant rhetoric going around, whether it was against Merkel, about WW2 (no surrender!), about the Turkish coming in droves - I don't recall much in the remain camp attracting anti foreigner sentiment. Happy to review if you can find me something. No doubt immigration was a factor. Just googled reasons for Brexit and this was the top result; https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnmauldin/2016/07/05/3-reasons-brits-voted-for-brexit/#49dcab451f9d #1 Economics #2 Sovereignty #3 Political Elitism 14 minutes ago, GboroRam said: I wouldn't be surprised if much of the twitter/facebook/insert your favourite social media platform race-bashing wasn't co-ordinated from Russia, but it certainly proved to be popular with some people. This, along with a couple of gaming guild forums I'm on (strictly no politics, religion, etc there - sensible ppl lol) is the only social media I 'do'. I check the headlines every day, see whats trending on twitter (I only follow 11 (all non-political) entities DCFC, Sky Sports, etc) and a bit of youtube for the non-mainstream angle. Focussing on Russia, Russia, Russia detracts from peoples personal reasons for voting leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Kevin Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 1 hour ago, Eddie said: He's good at hand-wringing, is Boris. What more do you want? Actually I suppose he has already gone a lot further than I expected - at least he has acknowledged that both institutionalised and casual racism exists. Bloody hell ,I'm going to save this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comrade 86 Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 1 hour ago, ramit said: i get what you're saying. If direct democracy is taken up at some point, the first years will be a steep learning curve for the citizens, but the advantage to such a system is that there would be no one to blame except the people. i am an optimist in general, even if some find that hard to believe and i think handing direct responsibility to the people is the best way for them to learn to handle such power responsibly and for the good of all. Yeah, that pretty much sums up my feelings tbh. have to say I'm not really feeling the optimism bit right now but that's more to do with the exceptionally shitty place we find ourselves in currently. no doubt it'll blow over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comrade 86 Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 1 hour ago, SchtivePesley said: So you're being a a tad dramatic perhaps? Dramatic? Moi? ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TuffLuff Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 I’ll just cut in and say that Marc Owen Jones is an excellent twitter follow for those who are inclined (he possibly has a derbyshire connection, he was defo tweeting about being here around Christmas, so there’s extra incentive to be interested in him). He’s looking into targeted press attacks online and where certain hashtags come from and their influence. This thread is an interesting look into that. Edit Might be of interest to @GboroRam’s point earlier today Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 12 hours ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said: Its ironic that those placards were under the defaced Churchill statue. It was him that was part of the team that brokered the irish free state deal. Michael Collins believed he had signed his own death warrant with the deal and he had, he went from hero to zero in ten minutes as half the people who idolised him hated him and then civil war ensued. That's how these things work= we demand to be heard till your hearing that person ahead of me and I think differently on that point. That's just one issue. I didn't expect Michael Collins to appear in this thread and especially not at this point. I don't quite follow the thrust of your point, what does Churchill's 1921 Treaty negotiations with Collins (during which Churchill and Lloyd George threatened to re-invade Ireland and start a war both 'immediate and terrible' if Collins didn't sign) have to do with the BLM protests and Boris' response to them ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i-Ram Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 In other news .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 46 minutes ago, GboroRam said: I keep hearing this is what the left/remainers said but honestly all I heard was all the racists voted leave. 28 minutes ago, maxjam said: Which perpetuates the lie that all leavers are racist to the uninitiated would it not? Something I'm sure you yourself wouldn't want to promote. How on earth would you come to that conclusion? Just how 'uninitiated' are these people you have in mind ? It's really simple logic. It's like this. All Cocker Spaniels are dogs ≠ All dogs are Cocker Spaniels. It's the same with Brexit. All racists are Brexit voters ≠ All Brexit voters are racist. You can't call something a 'lie' if it's not being said at all. Incidentally I don't agree with the notion that all racists were Brexiteers. I'm sure they were racist Remainers too. However, I think it was fair to conclude that there were proportionally more racists voting for Brexit than against it. But that doesn't mean there weren't vaild reasons for voting in favour of Brexit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkFruitsRam7 Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 2 hours ago, maxjam said: Well when the loony left stop being loony and wanting us all to stop eating meat and flying planes etc I might. I think this is a step down from your usual standard of well-reasoned, statistics-backed arguments. Being against the use of animals as food and supporting the reduction of plane emissions is hardly 'loony'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 1 hour ago, maxjam said: I dunno, its a mystery innit. Maybe if extremists weren't pushing the agenda the left would be able to get more votes from the middle ground. Brexit was a classic example - 'everyone that voted leave is a thick racist, oh and by the way don't forget to vote for us!!!' Well played. You beat that strawman to a pulp there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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