Comrade 86 Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 DISCLAIMER - LONG POST FORTHCOMING, REFERENCING RACIAL EQUALITY For those saying the government needs time to undergo consultation, there's been plenty of that already. The protests may be new but the underlying issues are most certainly not. What has not occurred is sufficient change and more so, increased accountability. Some on this thread seem incredibly uncomfortable with any dialog at all that suggests that there are issues that should be addressed. Time after time, the responses are the same: There's nothing for the BLM / BAME section of the populous to be marching about. There's no pronounced racism in the UK. We live in a diverse and fair society and any disenfranchisement is as a result of a fundamental lack of will to integrate, not any underlying systemic racism. I don't like the way I'm being told there's an issue. Ask nicely, don't guilt-trip me. It's an American problem. Progress has been made and they should grateful for that. They're not social-distancing, so I'm ignoring their message. What about black on black crime? Where's the outrage for (insert favourite deflection here)? Unfortunately for the naysayers, BAME citizens and the BLM movement do not see things in the same light and so despite the thinly veiled hostility that any such notions are increasingly met with on this thread, I'll have another go at explaining why this might be... Yesterday I posted data from Inquest.org providing a statistical analysis and breakdown of BAME deaths in police custody or linked to interaction with the UK police force. This was in response to @Norman's post which stated categorically that regarding the issue of police brutality in the UK, there is absolutely 'no case to answer' and that any comparisons with the US are not only misplaced, but fatuous. The response was not an explanation of this stance, but a request for my Twatter handle, before both he and @maxjam waded in with they saw as being the more important question of their own: 11 hours ago, Norman said: Well you're missing the vital stat, aren't you. How many are unlawful? It actually a highly revealing question, without necessarily intending to be, as the inference is quite clear and perhaps sheds light on why both BAME and non-BAME protesters are so angry. For these gents and many others, no doubt, the number of BAME deaths are of less significance than the number of convictions arising from them. Let that sink in, if you will... As the 1741 deaths in the last 30 years give the likes of the aforementioned no pause for thought at all and given that I'm already on a yellow card, I'll politely address their specific query in the best way I can. In doing so, (and to avoid the usual narrative of impartial sources / citations) I'll use ONLY the findings of an independent review commissioned by the government itself under Theresa May in 2015 after meeting with bereaved families who felt justice was not being served, following a number of high-profile deaths involving the police. Since Norman doesn't cope well with 'walls of text' (too late, TLDR) , I'll summarise the key findings as succinctly as I can: Q. In the last 15 years, how many deaths in police custody have resulted in a conviction? A. None - every prosecution over a death in custody in the past 15 years has ended in acquittal. Q. If not, have any murder or manslaughter convictions ever been handed down as a result of deaths in police custody? A. No - The Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC), the watchdog that oversees these cases, blithely stated at the time 'we're not aware of any successful conviction of a police officer over a death in custody for manslaughter, or murder'. They did, however concede that, 'there are a small number of cases where officers have been convicted of ‘misconduct in public office'. Q. How many of the 'small number of cases where officers have been convicted of misconduct in public office' have resulted in a custodial sentence? A. None Q. Since the independent review itself states quite clearly that the percentage of BAME deaths in police custody (10%) is lower than the percentage of the population that falls into this group (14%), does this not vindicate the opinion that there is 'no case to answer'? A. Well Norman and Maxjam would have you believe so. After all, at first glance, the above statistic on deaths in police custody doesn’t suggest race is a factor. However, when looking at deaths where force or restraints are used, race becomes impossible to ignore as the same group of findings reveal that BAME victim numbers are wildly disproportionate. BAME deaths in custody where restraint is used are more than two times greater than white deaths in custody BAME deaths in custody where force is used are more than two times greater than white deaths in custody BAME deaths in custody where mental health-related issues feature are nearly two times greater than white deaths in custody Q. Have these issues been addressed in recent years and is the trend therefore, a downward one? A. No - the stats do not support this assertion, indeed in 2018 the IPCC themselves expressed 'growing concerns' over the growing numbers of deaths among ethnic minorities arising from the use of police force. Ex-IPCC Chief, Anne Owers, highlighted that in the year following the government's independent review, of the 11 deaths in England and Wales, six of the victims were from an ethnic minority background. Given the specific event that has sparked the protests, that is, the death under restraint of a black man while in police custody and taking into account the findings of the government's own independent review, the IPCC and numerous independent bodies and charities, I find the notions that there is no case to answer and that there are no similarities between the issues we see in the US and issues back here in the UK, ill-informed, blinkered and highly disingenuous (and that's as polite a description as I can muster). More importantly, so do the hundreds of thousands of protesters across the globe who have taken to the streets in recent days. This is a global issue not just a British one after all. Granted, the issue may be a greater concern for the US, but that is wholly irrelevant to the context of UK protests. Furthermore, one might be forgiven for feeling that the response we've seen here in the UK, as well as dozens of other countries, ought to have been a big enough clue that said response is rooted in something more meaningful than an urge to chuck statues into rivers. I shan't be posting further on this specific point. Principally, because most of the likely respondents simply don't care about the issues outlined. It seems to me that for many, if these issues don't directly impact their own lives, indifference is the most likely response and I'm fine with that, each to their own. For some, the only interest elicited is in the inherent risks involved in mass-gatherings during a pandemic, which is, I happily concede, a valid concern. Sadly, a few seem only to want to smear the masses with the actions of the few and refuse to acknowledge the issue even really exists. Moreover, if fellow posters really have any interest at all in the reasons for the protests we have witnessed recently, there is and always has been, a wealth of information out there that is readily accessible with minimal effort. Lastly, there are other issues as worthy of attention as this one, a fact not unrecognised by yours truly and doubtless some folk are probably fed up with thinking or hearing about it. Fair do's! ==================================================== Please Note - Because of the inevitable demands for citations and proofs, Twatter handles and god knows what else, most if not all of which I'll most probably ignore, if your interest is genuine, may I politely suggest that you review the following resources rather than making any further demands on me to do so on your behalf. Deaths in police custody, deaths in prison and deaths of immigration detainees - data and reports: https://www.inquest.org.uk/ http://www.irr.org.uk/research/statistics/bame-deaths-in-custody/ https://www.ucu.org.uk/media/7201/Dying-for-Justice/pdf/Dying_for_Justice_web.pdf https://www.runnymedetrust.org/uploads/Race and Policing v5.pdf http://www.ohrn.nhs.uk/resource/policy/Nacroblackcommunities.pdf GOVERNMENT INQUIRY Report of the Independent Review of Deaths and Serious Incidents in Police Custody : https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/655401/Report_of_Angiolini_Review_ISBN_Accessible.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Kevin Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 5 hours ago, Andicis said: Wow. What an incredibly poor take this is. They think because they post it it's true .One look at the diversity in the Conservative cabinet and Commons just makes that post laughable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TramRam Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 Well she got her wish, Only locals took it down not the Council, To be saved maybe for another day, Who knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 1 hour ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said: Yesterday I posted data from Inquest.org providing a statistical analysis and breakdown of BAME deaths in police custody or linked to interaction with the UK police force. This was in response to @Norman's post which stated categorically that regarding the issue of police brutality in the UK, there is absolutely 'no case to answer' and that any comparisons with the US are not only misplaced, but fatuous. The response was not an explanation of this stance, but a request for my Twatter handle, before both he and @maxjam waded in with they saw as being the more important question of their own: Hang on, all I asked for were sources as to where your data came from - I provided a link from the BBC who themselves referenced the governments own police conduct website; https://www.policeconduct.gov.uk/ The two sets of data are wildly different, if I can be bothered later I'll take a look through the links you have now posted. However seeing as you seem to have taken offence at people questioning your point of view and have stated you won't be replying again there's probably little point - this despite calmly and rationally answering almost every question asked of me over the years, up until recently even the ones that included (often not so subtle) racist undertones whilst being told personally by you (and Ill clean it up and paraphrase) to expect my views to be challenged on a public forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TuffLuff Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 31 minutes ago, maxjam said: Hang on, all I asked for were sources as to where your data came from - I provided a link from the BBC who themselves referenced the governments own police conduct website; https://www.policeconduct.gov.uk/ The two sets of data are wildly different, if I can be bothered later I'll take a look through the links you have now posted. However seeing as you seem to have taken offence at people questioning your point of view and have stated you won't be replying again there's probably little point - this despite calmly and rationally answering almost every question asked of me over the years, up until recently even the ones that included (often not so subtle) racist undertones whilst being told personally by you (and Ill clean it up and paraphrase) to expect my views to be challenged on a public forum. I’ve only looked at both sets very quickly for the simple reason I don’t have time but my guess is that both reports can look at the same data and by changing the question you can get two different sets of results. Personally I think the general point is that you should be looking at the inquest report and think ‘oh there’s an issue here’ rather than undermining it and going ‘here are other stats and mine are more accurate’. Yeah you might not be calling people names or being aggressive but it still comes across as bad if you ask me. That’s not to say the data shouldn’t be analysed or questioned, it should be, but not for the sake of undermining it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 17 hours ago, maxjam said: Maybe a large part of the black community feeling as though its still 1965 is largely down to the left and leftist media's hateful obsession with identity politics. Come on now - even you must read that back and realise what a ludicrous thing to say that is. 17 hours ago, maxjam said: Nobody ever credits how far we've come or really talks about what steps we can still take, only how modern Whitey can pay for the sins of his ancestors that more than likely didn't even have active involvement in the slave trade either Again - are you serious? There are multiple posters on both left & right here admitting that we have come a long way - myself included. I was justifiably questioning why it feels like we've come a long way yet right now the George Floyd riots are barely different to the 1965 Watts Riots and the 1992 Rodney King riots But to address your point of - "what steps we can still take" Did you miss my post where I said Quote We should be able to say that society has progressed and what was acceptable decades ago is no longer acceptable, whilst also accepting that times change, and back then things were different. Celebrate the fact that we are much more enlightened now and give over with the guilt/defensiveness/blame We won't move on until both sides shift on that. Your post shows all 3 of those, so you have to recognise the need to change to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comrade 86 Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 1 hour ago, maxjam said: Hang on, all I asked for were sources as to where your data came from - I provided a link from the BBC who themselves referenced the governments own police conduct website; https://www.policeconduct.gov.uk/ The two sets of data are wildly different, if I can be bothered later I'll take a look through the links you have now posted. However seeing as you seem to have taken offence at people questioning your point of view and have stated you won't be replying again there's probably little point - this despite calmly and rationally answering almost every question asked of me over the years, up until recently even the ones that included (often not so subtle) racist undertones whilst being told personally by you (and Ill clean it up and paraphrase) to expect my views to be challenged on a public forum. Calm down love! Just checked and no, you did not ask the question (too) you just gave it the applause emoji. Not the same thing at all ? And I've not taken any offence, at folk questioning my posts. The reason I said I'd probably not respond (note I used the term 'to likely respondents' and right on cue, here you are!) is because 99% of these 'debates' are with the likes of you and Norman and we're a million miles apart and always will be. I mean, despite there being video evidence, as well as evidence that the police initially lied about how he suffered his injuries, you applauded a post stating that the 75 year old fella who ended up prostrate with blood pissing out of his head, should of known better and brought it on himself! You actually duckin applauded it! Zero blame attached to the police so it's pretty clear where you stand on this. Put simply, you may like to portray your opinions as moderate (and me as some lunatic, SJW, swivel-eyed Trot), but they're anything but. Why would I respond and try and change your mind? I'll just state my case and you can say whatever you like in the aftermath. Seems fair enough to me! FWIW, I'm now at a point where I'm really not fussed at all how folk talk to me on here. I give as good as I get and it's all just words on a screen anyway. I mean, take you and I for instance. We're not exactly pals, are we, nor will we ever be. So... by all means sanity check my stats or anything else you wish to. I welcome it, quite frankly. I've provided the link to the report in my post (a mere 292 pages of it) so be my guest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 11 minutes ago, TuffLuff said: Personally I think the general point is that you should be looking at the inquest report and think ‘oh there’s an issue here’ rather than undermining it and going ‘here are other stats and mine are more accurate’. No one is denying there is an issue though, just the severity of the issue. The accuracy of stats does matter, if 100 people are dieing in police custody every year that would be bad and might suggest police brutality, if 90% of them are suicides then maybe not. 14 minutes ago, TuffLuff said: Yeah you might not be calling people names or being aggressive but it still comes across as bad if you ask me. That’s not to say the data shouldn’t be analysed or questioned, it should be, but not for the sake of undermining it If I respectfully answer questions why does it come across as bad? And how do I question your opinion without you fealing as though you are being undermined? We don't move forwards as individuals or as a society taking things at face value, we question them to get a better understanding. If you make a statement on a public forum (or wherever) you should always expect to have it challenged, if questions are asked calmly and with civility, even ones you may not like or agree with reply to them in kind. Thats my philosophy at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comrade 86 Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 5 minutes ago, maxjam said: If you make a statement on a public forum (or wherever) you should always expect to have it challenged, if questions are asked calmly and with civility, even ones you may not like or agree with reply to them in kind. Thats my philosophy at least. I think if you could ever refer to the left without using the term loony or lunatic, folk might take you a tad more seriously. I probably wouldn't, in all honesty, but somebody might. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 10 hours ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said: Neither I, nor Boris, mentioned anything that you raise in your post. I just think that if a PM recognises an issue, the natural next step is to articulate how he plans to resolve it. It doesn’t necessarily matter what the varying aims of the protestors are at this point, as I simply want to know what Boris plans to do about a problem that he himself has identified. Only then can I judge his response, but until then I’ll assume he plans to do nothing about it. He's good at hand-wringing, is Boris. What more do you want? Actually I suppose he has already gone a lot further than I expected - at least he has acknowledged that both institutionalised and casual racism exists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramit Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 6 hours ago, Andicis said: Wow. What an incredibly poor take this is. If it helps, i don't think much of the so called left either, or the center. i have studied local politics for many decades, which is a certain advantage, as it is like a microcosm of European politics. As a result, i have given up on representative democracy, on the belief that it is rotten to the core and beyond repair in it's current form. There comes a point when one has been bamboozled once too often. Our only choice IMO is which party we will get played for fools by and in which way. Some usable form of direct democracy is what i hold out hope for now, but it will not arrive unless people reject the party political machines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramit Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 3 hours ago, Anon said: Now now, Ramit obviously knows what is best for minorities. He has every right to be angry if they don't behave exactly how he wants them to. i think this comment says more about you, than me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 8 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said: Calm down love! Just checked and no, you did not ask the question (too) you just gave it the applause emoji. Not the same thing at all ? Erm, yes I did ask the question, it was the first line of my post. The rest was linking data complied by the BBC in their article. Not sure what post you took offence to me applauding? The one from @Norman I applauded as he quoted my need for more evidence being required? 11 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said: And I've not taken any offence, at folk questioning my posts. The reason I said I'd probably not respond (note I used the term 'to likely respondents' and right on cue, here you are!) You tagged me in your post as 'wading in' which I thought was unfair. 13 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said: 99% of these 'debates' are with the likes of you and Norman and we're a million miles apart and always will be. So never the twain shall meet? Thats it then, close the topic, no point debating anything anymore. 15 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said: Put simply, you may like to portray your opinions as moderate (and me as some lunatic, SJW, swivel-eyed Trot), but they're anything but. Why would I respond and try and change your mind? I'll just state my case and you can say whatever you like in the aftermath. Seems fair enough to me! Because its a discussion board? If you don't want to discuss why both partaking? Maybe what you're really after is an echo chamber? 17 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said: FWIW, I'm now at a point where I'm really not fussed at all how folk talk to me on here. I give as good as I get and it's all just words on a screen anyway. I mean, take you and I for instance. We're not exactly pals, are we, nor will we ever be. Never though of you as an enemy either. As someone who believes in free speech everyone is allowed an opinion, people challenge mine, I challenge others. If its done within the rules and with civility on a public forum I'm not sure what the problem is. 22 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said: So... by all means sanity check my stats or anything else you wish to. I welcome it, quite frankly. I've provided the link to the report in my post (a mere 292 pages of it) so be my guest Maybe I will when I get time - theres a lot to go through though. And it wouldn't be a personal attack if I did, it would be out of interest to see why the 2 sets of data are so different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 15 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said: I think if you could ever refer to the left without using the term loony or lunatic, folk might take you a tad more seriously. I probably wouldn't, in all honesty, but somebody might. Well when the loony left stop being loony and wanting us all to stop eating meat and flying planes etc I might. All they seem to want to do presently is shut down opposing views and push wacky agendas that alienate themselves from the masses. Then moan that the Tories/Trump are in power ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comrade 86 Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 3 minutes ago, ramit said: If it helps, i don't think much of the so called left either, or the center. i have studied local politics for many decades, which is a certain advantage, as it is like a microcosm of European politics. As a result, i have given up on representative democracy, on the belief that it is rotten to the core and beyond repair in it's current form. There comes a point when one has been bamboozled once too often. Our only choice IMO is which party we will get played for fools by and in which way. Some usable form of direct democracy is what i hold out hope for now, but it will not arrive unless people reject the party political machines. I used to believe that we, the people, should have a greater say in policy. Governments are elected on a mandate which by and large, they wholly ignore once in power. It's kind of a broken system tbh. That said, the referendum didn't work out too well for garlic-munching, snail-chuffing europhiles like me, so perhaps the restful malaise of outright apathy is the last available avenue? This forum hardly engenders one with a deal of optimism for better times ahead, does it? Perhaps we really do get the governments we deserve, after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 30 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: Come on now - even you must read that back and realise what a ludicrous thing to say that is. Nope, identity politics is the bane of our lives. We now have the BBC downplaying events in the UK and CNN justifying riots in the US. 32 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: Again - are you serious? There are multiple posters on both left & right here admitting that we have come a long way - myself included. Yup, serious. TBH some posters on here are more forgiving that a lot of the narrative that gets pushed in the media. 35 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: I was justifiably questioning why it feels like we've come a long way yet right now the George Floyd riots are barely different to the 1965 Watts Riots and the 1992 Rodney King riots See my first point of reply. 35 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: We won't move on until both sides shift on that. Your post shows all 3 of those, so you have to recognise the need to change to Although one side asserts that whilst we still have much to do things have improved whereas the other side pushes the narrative that things are as bad now as they have ever been and won't look any deeper into the statistics than the headline figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TuffLuff Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 6 minutes ago, maxjam said: No one is denying there is an issue though, just the severity of the issue. The accuracy of stats does matter, if 100 people are dieing in police custody every year that would be bad and might suggest police brutality, if 90% of them are suicides then maybe not. If I respectfully answer questions why does it come across as bad? And how do I question your opinion without you fealing as though you are being undermined? We don't move forwards as individuals or as a society taking things at face value, we question them to get a better understanding. If you make a statement on a public forum (or wherever) you should always expect to have it challenged, if questions are asked calmly and with civility, even ones you may not like or agree with reply to them in kind. Thats my philosophy at least. Both points here are about your own interpretation. Your own interpretation of figures and your own interpretation of civility. The problem is to me, on what I’ve read on here. is there’s a lack of being open to other interpretations. Yes, all opinions should be challenged and debated, but I think we are going to into a debate with conclusions already made rather than looking to learn and move forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TramRam Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 14 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said: FWIW, I'm now at a point where I'm really not fussed at all how folk talk to me on here. I give as good as I get and it's all just words on a screen anyway. I mean, take you and I for instance. We're not exactly pals, are we, nor will we ever be. Spot on...It's only a message board...But. People can't help having an opinion or their say on any given subject, This subject being the most contentious, Race will forever be a stain on any society that treat people of different colour differently. Seeing a post people agree/disagree with we're compelled to respond, Either by a positive/negative counter reply, My above picture of the Blackface had recieved 35,000 negative responces from the female who wanted it taken down, There were 3000 to keep it up...It's been there for god knows how long without even a bat of an eye as far as I'm aware, But social media win the cause because someone took an offence or wanted to take a higher plain of righteousness, No doubt she'll move onto another project, And in all probability done without leaving their home. Taking an offence to someone posting on the internet, You're going into battle for your beliefs, It makes it right in your own mind, But wrong in others, We search for data to prove our postings or the very least to come to a consensus that there is a problem. Tommy Robinson ranting about certain people of colour who were backing the protests, He has a right just as they have, 2 Women of colour were murdered in London over the weekend are there going to be protests? Sad and Bad times we live in, I wouldn't want to live in another time tho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 6 minutes ago, maxjam said: Well when the loony left stop being loony and wanting us all to stop eating meat and flying planes etc I might. All they seem to want to do presently is shut down opposing views and push wacky agendas that alienate themselves from the masses. Well at least that means I, and every one of my left-leaning friends are not "loony" in your eyes. We all eat meat and don't have any interest in telling people what they should/shouldn't eat. We all (used to) fly on holidays regularly, and don't have any interest in telling others the wrongs/rights of that We don't "shut-down" opposing views. We might disagree, and we might argue against - but that's not the same thing We don't have any "wacky agendas" I see all these behaviours you describe in a minority of people online - but it's tiny. Certainly doesn't warrant the kind of amplification you continue to give it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramit Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 4 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said: I used to believe that we, the people, should have a greater say in policy. Governments are elected on a mandate which by and large, they wholly ignore once in power. It's kind of a broken system tbh. That said, the referendum didn't work out too well for garlic-munching, snail-chuffing europhiles like me, so perhaps the restful malaise of outright apathy is the last available avenue? This forum hardly engenders one with a deal of optimism for better times ahead, does it? Perhaps we really do get the governments we deserve, after all. i get what you're saying. If direct democracy is taken up at some point, the first years will be a steep learning curve for the citizens, but the advantage to such a system is that there would be no one to blame except the people. i am an optimist in general, even if some find that hard to believe and i think handing direct responsibility to the people is the best way for them to learn to handle such power responsibly and for the good of all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.