The Politics Thread 2020

[Norman]

37 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

I think you've misrepresented my argument there. I made no such analogy.

I never even suggested that we should teach everything that has ever happened in the history of this country; obviously that would be impossible. The key idea is to encourage kids to avoid binary thinking and and be able to comprehend the idea that someone can simultaneously do great and terrible things.

The process of choosing what gets taught wouldn't really change. It's how it's taught that important.

The decisions Churchill took saved far, far, far more lives than it took, but again that's not your argument. 

Your argument is some of his well known racist tendancies. But it's not that straight forward. You can't judge a man on what was acceptable 100 years a go. What society and education approved of. The man gave us freedom, he gave us the ability to build this tolerant, diverse country. 

The fact that he had the same thoughts as 99 percent of the country at the time, through the education and propaganda they had, shouldn't be used as a tool to diminish his achievements. 

Teach it, like it should be. But I have no faith that it would be. 

[Stive Pesley]

13 minutes ago, King Kevin said:

if you are referring to innocent civilians it's quite a well known fact and pretty well documented that  German civilians knew about the extermination camps and turned a blind eye to it all.

Hard to imagine a population who knew about systemic racism going on under their noses by leaders who were clearly racist, but turned a blind eye to it. When does that ever happen?

[DarkFruitsRam7]

12 minutes ago, Norman said:

The decisions Churchill took saved far, far, far more lives than it took, but again that's not your argument. 

Your argument is some of his well known racist tendancies. But it's not that straight forward. You can't judge a man on what was acceptable 100 years a go. What society and education approved of. The man gave us freedom, he gave us the ability to build this tolerant, diverse country. 

The fact that he had the same thoughts as 99 percent of the country at the time, through the education and propaganda they had, shouldn't be used as a tool to diminish his achievements. 

Teach it, like it should be. But I have no faith that it would be. 

I said I’m dipping out of this thread, but I saw this reply so just sending a quick response.

Context is hugely important, I agree. His words are, even in hindsight, less problematic based on the era in which they were made, as society wasn’t as ‘tuned in’ to subtle racism back then. But I don’t think the ‘99%’ thing is necessarily accurate, as suggested by this passage I saw this morning:

FWIW, I think the net analysis of Churchill should probably be positive. Though, as you acknowledge, that’s not the issue I’m arguing.

This really is my last post in here for a while! Someone could call me a gobby little bamford and I’ll still resist the temptation to reply?

[Norman]

5 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

I said I’m dipping out of this thread, but I saw this reply so just sending a quick response.

Context is hugely important, I agree. His words are, even in hindsight, less problematic based on the era in which they were made, as society wasn’t as ‘tuned in’ to subtle racism back then. But I don’t think the ‘99%’ thing is necessarily accurate, as suggested by this passage I saw this morning:

FWIW, I think the net analysis of Churchill should probably be positive. Though, as you acknowledge, that’s not the issue I’m arguing.

This really is my last post in here for a while! Someone could call me a gobby little bamford and I’ll still resist the temptation to reply?

He was voted in twice by the public. 99 percent wouldnt have had such strong views, but I'd bet a lot of money 99 percent had racist tendancies that they would not have in today's world. 

[TramRam]

21 minutes ago, King Kevin said:

I which case mate you really need to expand on your history because if you are referring to innocent civilians it's quite a well known fact and pretty well documented that  German civilians knew about the extermination camps and turned a blind eye to it all.

Having said that children are the unfortunate casualties for wars started by adults and war mongers like Adolf Hitler. German civilians were out on the streets celebrating when it was all going their way in the low countries and France etc plenty of civilians being killed then.

You reap what you sow they got exactly what the deserved IMO. 

My Grandfather was a station master in Vienna, Trains were halted for certain trains to go thrrough, I was told my my Mother that he new what was inside those carriages...But he rarely spoke about this, Only kept on as the Allies needed his expertise on the rail net work.

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

12 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

Hard to imagine a population who knew about systemic racism going on under their noses by leaders who were clearly racist, but turned a blind eye to it. When does that ever happen?

Serbia in the 90's ?

[Stive Pesley]

18 minutes ago, Norman said:

You can't judge a man on what was acceptable 100 years a go. What society and education approved of.

I agree (steady on Schtive!)

We should be able to say that society has progressed and what was acceptable decades ago is no longer acceptable, whilst also accepting that times change, and back then things were different. Celebrate the fact that we are much more enlightened now and give over with the guilt/defensiveness

 

 

 

[Norman]

7 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

I agree (steady on Schtive!)

We should be able to say that society has progressed and what was acceptable decades ago is no longer acceptable, whilst also accepting that times change, and back then things were different. Celebrate the fact that we are much more enlightened now and give over with the guilt/defensiveness. 

 

[Archied]

23 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

I agree (steady on Schtive!)

We should be able to say that society has progressed and what was acceptable decades ago is no longer acceptable, whilst also accepting that times change, and back then things were different. Celebrate the fact that we are much more enlightened now and give over with the guilt/defensiveness

 

 

 

Spot on Steve just missed a word , give over with guilt/ defensiveness/ blame 

put an end to racism once and for all 

[Stive Pesley]

1 minute ago, Archied said:

Spot on Steve just missed a word , give over with guilt/ defensiveness/ blame 

put an end to racism once and for all 

I assure you that missing word was not deliberate - and has a rightful place in the sentence

 

[Highgate]

59 minutes ago, King Kevin said:

You picked a wrong one there ,first off it was Bomber Harris not Churchill that ordered that raid although it was afterwards that Churchill distanced himself from the action .

It was a vital marshalling yard and transit  base for the Eastern front and the Russians requested the raid to save allied lives .In any case it was just deserts for Coventry  London etc and seeing as racism  is  a hot topic atm the Germans deserved all they got for murdering 6 million Jews mainly women and kids .I also seem to remember they started it so no sympathy here I'm afraid.

There should always be sympathy for civilian casualties of war.  Regardless of which side started the war in the first place.

The bombing was wrong in my opinion. not necessary and disproportionately affecting civilians.  Not the only controversial act on the Allied side of course.  The sinking of French Navy being another.  Hiroshima and Nagasaki obviously and probably the cruelest and most inexplicable of all the diverting of aid away from the starving population in Bengal. 

Of course with wars of that magnitude there are always going to actions perpetrated in the heat and hatred of war (even by the 'good guys' like the Allies) that are controversial. In the cold light of hindsight they may seem like a mistake.  I wouldn't put the Bengali issue in that category...as there seems to be absolutely no way of defending that travesty, then or now. 

[Jourdan]

I wouldn’t be surprised if the protests have had the opposite effect than desired.

On the one hand, I am sure BLM will consider the scale of the protests a triumph, the fact that they have mobilised so many people.

On the other hand, when you have such large scale protests, you lose control of the message being spread and leave it open to being lost.

When the abiding memory of these protests will be vandalism, criminal damage, assaults on the police, and headline-making unrest, it does make you wonder if it is only serving to reinforce negative views of particular groups of people - black people, young people, certain political groups - rather than building bridges.

If people are talking about a policewoman, a traffic light and a horse rather than the actual cause - can we really say mission accomplished?

You have professional protesters up to no good, you have celebrities and influencers seeking a photo op, you have people climbing upon a cause and not truly grasping it, you have people disregarding social distancing and the safeguarding of public health.

I have to say these protests don’t look positive. They actually might do more harm than good.

Personally I am not someone who believes in holding up a sign and marching the street to make my voice heard, because it invites other voices to be heard and they may ultimately drown you out with a message not consistent with your own.

I think the biggest power you have and the biggest impression you can make is through your place in the community - what you do on a day-to-day basis and how you treat other people.

I honestly think people will be more moved and more touched by everyday acts of kindness, respect, compassion and togetherness than a global uprising.

Maybe that’s naive but it’s just what I think.

[TramRam]

Knock knock knock.

Who is it?

It's the Police.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52964839

 

[cstand]

1 hour ago, SchtivePesley said:

On the subject of historical nuances - it's interesting that a few yards from where the BLM protest was in Derby yesterday there is a blue plaque to Herbert Spencer. A great thinker but one that was a proponent of scientific racism back in his day.

Do you really think that adding more fuel to the fire is a good idea?

[King Kevin]

38 minutes ago, Highgate said:

There should always be sympathy for civilian casualties of war.  Regardless of which side started the war in the first place.

The bombing was wrong in my opinion. not necessary and disproportionately affecting civilians.  Not the only controversial act on the Allied side of course.  The sinking of French Navy being another.  Hiroshima and Nagasaki obviously and probably the cruelest and most inexplicable of all the diverting of aid away from the starving population in Bengal. 

Of course with wars of that magnitude there are always going to actions perpetrated in the heat and hatred of war (even by the 'good guys' like the Allies) that are controversial. In the cold light of hindsight they may seem like a mistake.  I wouldn't put the Bengali issue in that category...as there seems to be absolutely no way of defending that travesty, then or now. 

I can understand your point of view ,I just don't agree with it.

[Norman]

11 minutes ago, TramRam said:

Knock knock knock.

Who is it?

It's the Police.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52964839

 

Yeah, duck the cops. 

Oh wait. They are arresting me for a crime, where I will be fairly treated upon arrest, given a fair trial, a chance to be defended by taxpayers and have the right to be innocent until found guilty. My identity might be hidden for my own sake.... Because, guess what. 

This isn't ducking Murica. 

[A Ram for All Seasons]

1 hour ago, SchtivePesley said:

On the subject of historical nuances - it's interesting that a few yards from where the BLM protest was in Derby yesterday there is a blue plaque to Herbert Spencer. A great thinker but one that was a proponent of scientific racism back in his day.

Derby's own Herbert Spencer, the founder of Social Darwinism. What a pillock.

[Stive Pesley]

30 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

I think the biggest power you have and the biggest impression you can make is through your place in the community - what you do on a day-to-day basis and how you treat other people.

I honestly think people will be more moved and more touched by everyday acts of kindness, respect, compassion and togetherness than a global uprising.

Maybe that’s naive but it’s just what I think.

I think we'd all like to think that way, but how long do you wait before you expect to see things change?

It feels like this particular issue has been going on for my whole life and hasn't really changed

I remember being moved by the Frank Zappa line in Trouble Every Day about the Watts Riots in 1965

"I'm not black but there's a whole lot of times I wish I could say I'm not white"

Then the Rodney King riots in 1992

Now George Floyd in 2020

Feels like every 30 years or so the anger boils over, but nothing changes

[Norman]

Just now, SchtivePesley said:

I think we'd all like to think that way, but how long do you wait before you expect to see things change?

It feels like this particular issue has been going on for my whole life and hasn't really changed

I remember being moved by the Frank Zappa line in Trouble Every Day about the Watts Riots in 1965

"I'm not black but there's a whole lot of times I wish I could say I'm not white"

Then the Rodney King riots in 1992

Now George Floyd in 2020

Feels like every 30 years or so the anger boils over, but nothing changes

Ah come on. Are you saying it isn't better to be black now than in the 70's? 

poo takes time. The only real alternative is to start going down family trees and redistributing the wealth. 

[i-Ram]

18 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

I think we'd all like to think that way, but how long do you wait before you expect to see things change?

It feels like this particular issue has been going on for my whole life and hasn't really changed

I remember being moved by the Frank Zappa line in Trouble Every Day about the Watts Riots in 1965

"I'm not black but there's a whole lot of times I wish I could say I'm not white"

Then the Rodney King riots in 1992

Now George Floyd in 2020

Feels like every 30 years or so the anger boils over, but nothing changes

Ah well, its another injustice which gives you something to keep tapping away on your keyboard about.