Alph Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 22 minutes ago, Eddie said: Why do you think that is? Are you suggesting that Britain will become more racist? I think tearing down things that have made Britain what it is today could offend many Brits. Rightly or wrongly. I don't assume all these Brits would be white either. British people holding dear British history is not racist. British people destroying British history is not racist or anti racist. It's criminal. It's not a step forward. It's vandalism. It's fixing a leak by tearing out the plumbing. 14 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said: BLM should make t-shirts with this quote on it! Incredible! Does it not more show the failure to include black slavery into British history? Not knowing black slavery isn't racist. How is black slavery in Britain relevant unless you are black heritage or interested in British history? We can make it relevant. Or moan about people not having a clue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 49 minutes ago, FindernRam said: All this apologising for history is a total nonsense! It might help if you understood the difference between a personal apology and a symbolic apology Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ariotofmyown Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 Just now, cstand said: I think I can say with confidence investing millions is not short term. Keep criticising the people of this country for Brexit will only make people be more nationalistic, the debate has been done over and over its time to move to the future. I'm criticising the people in powerful positions who were using war references during the Brexit 'negotiations' last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ariotofmyown Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 20 minutes ago, i-Ram said: Can I ask Eddie, and @ariotofmyown, what positive actions you have taken over the years to protest against, and try to eradicate racism? Genuine question. I don’t mean just having positive relationships, and being friendly and courteous to others of different skin colour. Those in my view should be givens. It's a good question and I should do more. A great part of BLM is teaching everyone what we can do to help. I think challenging the views of others is of some limited use. Hopefully the last couple of weeks has made everyone think more about how they could do more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TramRam Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 2 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said: Apologies, I was wrong and what I should have said was "but they didn't seem to make the cut in most of those old Westerns" And here we have it, You've had time to think, People are very quick to point an accusing finger straight away as it's fashionable for the time, That google search took 30 seconds. There's people out there doing the same, When a little time to reflect could help a damn site more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 17 minutes ago, i-Ram said: Can I ask Eddie, and @ariotofmyown, what positive actions you have taken over the years to protest against, and try to eradicate racism? Genuine question. I don’t mean just having positive relationships, and being friendly and courteous to others of different skin colour. Those in my view should be givens. My only proper 'action' really was taking part in the 'Stop the tour' protests against the South African cricket tour in 1970. I don't claim to be an activist and no, I don't support the destruction of property, no matter how loathsome it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ariotofmyown Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 6 minutes ago, Alpha said: Does it not more show the failure to include black slavery into British history? Not knowing black slavery isn't racist. How is black slavery in Britain relevant unless you are black heritage or interested in British history? We can make it relevant. Or moan about people not having a clue. Indeed it does. Surely everyone knows though that problems black people have today are still a result of slavery, even though it was 'long ago'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 1 minute ago, SchtivePesley said: It might help if you understood the difference between a personal apology and a symbolic apology Well I know the difference and I'm seeing it as something that transcends race. I see the destruction of monuments as an attack on the history of a people. I don't need Mehmed II statues taking down in Istanbul. That is part of their identity. It isn't a symbol barbary slave trade. It isn't a symbol of Muslim superiority. It is a symbol of the past. Of how the people of modern day Turkey and other countries have the lands, the language, the laws etc etc. He laid foundations and gave his people new wealth. He gave people the opportunity to forge a better world. I would be happy to see monuments of black heritage in Britain. Rosa Parks does/should have monuments in the States. Her story should be taught. She is relevant to all Americans. The story of black people is relevant to all Americans. There are monuments in Britain that are relevant to British people. To British lives. They are symbols of British past. They can be celebrated by all of Britain for allowing future generations the opportunities to make change. These monuments need not all be of white people. Black history is part of British history. Its absurd that a monument of Churchill can be seen as a symbol of homophobia or racism. It's purely a symbol of Britains past. A really relevant piece of our history and a key figure in understanding where we are today. Many monuments represent people who's views are not in line with today. It's tragic that we would have to tear them down to move forward. They are just not really relevant to moving forward as such. They aren't symbolic of today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonofmidnight Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 2 hours ago, BondJovi said: You wrote what I started and deleted about 5 times last night! I too fully agree with Alpha's eloquent post. I have to say when I see a statue and I've seen thousands my first reaction is not that the statue is glorifying, praising someone it's always about learning and quite often I will do some research and make up my own mind about it. Perhaps statues we put up nowadays will cause offense to future generations but they are of their time and hopefully will educate people about life in the 21st century. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FindernRam Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 57 minutes ago, Eddie said: Why do you think that is? Are you suggesting that Britain will become more racist? Actually I do, regrettably. Pictures of vandals breaking the law with large civil disturbance will only reinforce stereotypes that exist. There will be a minority who will kick back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 17 minutes ago, Alpha said: I think tearing down things that have made Britain what it is today could offend many Brits. Rightly or wrongly. I don't assume all these Brits would be white either. British people holding dear British history is not racist. British people destroying British history is not racist or anti racist. It's criminal. It's not a step forward. It's vandalism. It's fixing a leak by tearing out the plumbing. Does it not more show the failure to include black slavery into British history? Not knowing black slavery isn't racist. How is black slavery in Britain relevant unless you are black heritage or interested in British history? We can make it relevant. Or moan about people not having a clue. I never said that ignorance is racist, but it is arguable that wilful ignorance is akin to burying your head in the sand (as in "It isn't relevant to me so I really couldn't be bothered". For me, the words of Martin Niemoller say it all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 4 minutes ago, FindernRam said: Actually I do, regrettably. Pictures of vandals breaking the law with large civil disturbance will only reinforce stereotypes that exist. There will be a minority who will kick back. An awful lot of people involved in those demonstrations were white - and the vast majority of people were peaceful. How do you think that will reinforce racial stereotyping and prejudice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 11 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said: Indeed it does. Surely everyone knows though that problems black people have today are still a result of slavery, even though it was 'long ago'. Yeah, you would think. I just wish we could come up with positive and constructive ways to break barriers and educate rather than attacking the history of another race/nationality. No history needs to be buried to make new history does it? Even Nazi history is fascinating. I know there are no Nazi monuments in Germany but that maybe has to do with how the Germans feel the Nazi party represents their history? I'm not sure. But to destroy every trace of Nazi history would be a tragedy imo. Or to consider anybody who keeps a piece of Nazi history as fascist etc. I think it's all a symbol of history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FindernRam Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 54 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said: BLM should make t-shirts with this quote on it! Incredible! I said WASN't (past tense). I guess I was 14 at the time, early 60s. History to most teenagers is irrelevant. So you forget it unless you have reason to recall it. And amongst all the hand wringing can someone explain why its such a big deal now centuries later. I don't see a Black person and think-ex slave, look down on them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 7 minutes ago, Eddie said: I never said that ignorance is racist, but it is arguable that wilful ignorance is akin to burying your head in the sand (as in "It isn't relevant to me so I really couldn't be bothered". For me, the words of Martin Niemoller say it all... Ah, then I get your point. Just strengthen my point of view that black history needs to be made as relevant as British history considering they're intertwined. I've always been a bit against affirmative action but through the likes of yourself and @GboroRam and others I mentioned previously I think I've become less ignorant. Kind of don't hold ignorance against people though. More to blame are the teachers than the students kind of thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 5 minutes ago, FindernRam said: And amongst all the hand wringing can someone explain why its such a big deal now centuries later. I don't see a Black person and think-ex slave, look down on them! The fact that you don't is irrelevant - the fact that there are people who definitely do think that way, and think that because of their respective skin colours they are superior, most definitely is a problem, especially when others turn away and don't shout out "THIS IS WRONG". Edit: It's not irrelevant - the fact that you don't think that way is good. It's a first step. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cstand Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 54 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said: I'm criticising the people in powerful positions who were using war references during the Brexit 'negotiations' last year. I think there is a lot more too worry about this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtains Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/robert-baden-powell-statue-livid-poole-residents-vow-to-fight-plan-to-take-down-monument-of-scouts-founder-12004683 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TramRam Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 8 minutes ago, Curtains said: https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/robert-baden-powell-statue-livid-poole-residents-vow-to-fight-plan-to-take-down-monument-of-scouts-founder-12004683 A shame. Sadly I believe it will be targeted by those on social media who wouldn't have known it was there imo, Now it's in the limelight it could be seen as fair game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 4 minutes ago, Alpha said: Ah, then I get your point. Just strengthen my point of view that black history needs to be made as relevant as British history considering they're intertwined. I've always been a bit against affirmative action but through the likes of yourself and @GboroRam and others I mentioned previously I think I've become less ignorant. Kind of don't hold ignorance against people though. More to blame are the teachers than the students kind of thing. I do rant a bit, and probably preach a bit too. I do speak from experience of being on both sides of the racial fence. 56 years ago I returned to this country following 3 years in Malaya. The school I went to was a grammar school in Dover. I have always been darkish in skin colour (think Eastern Mediterranean) but three years in the tropics and I was as dusky as my mate Stephen, whose dad was born in Jamaica. I was to all intents and purposes the 'other' black guy in the school of about 600 whites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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