The Politics Thread 2020

[DarkFruitsRam7]

11 minutes ago, Archied said:

Him and saville?

I'd say there's a reason why Savile and Churchill should be treated differently. The former is a kids TV presenter whose atrocities were completely unrelated to his job, whereas the latter is a historical figure whose best (being a key figure in the victory over facism) and worst (Bengali famine, treatment of the Irish, Dresden, racist comments (and yes, I say racist as his views were outdated even for his time) moments were in the roles that he's remembered and revered for. Studying Savile would be studying a sexual abuser who raised a bit of money for charity, whereas studying Churchill properly would allow us to examine our own history and perhaps reassess the binary nature with which we tend to look at the past.

[maxjam]

19 minutes ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

Would you say the same if some one turned up later with a wrecking ball at the village of Tissington.  The place was built with plantation profits. Bugger those that live there, an hour to pack your bags.  As far as I know discussion was taken on what to do with this statue by public consultation, the information relating to the statue had also been changed to reflect Bristols slave history, therefore it should have been there. In another couple of years with another consultation it may not have been .   You cannot go back and eradicate history by destroying everything  related to it unless you want a 'year Zero' scenario.  Should we get rid of Auschwitz or does it serve as a reminder going forward.  Should we go back another few hundred years and let anyone of Slavic ancestry tear down half the buildings in North Africa .

Not to mention a certain leader of a religion that wasn't averse to slavery.  Should we start tearing down religious buildings now?

Comparing Colston to Jimmy Saville is a bit of a false equivalence as well - one was common place all around the world, the other was a crime.  If we apply modern day laws and values to history pretty much all of it looks bad.

I often wonder how we will be judged in 200yrs time.  Surely the most important asset of any country/continent is the people?  How will history judge us when they decide that we raped Africa of its best and brightest to work as Doctors and Nurses or in care homes etc for us?

[Anag Ram]

35 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

Not sure if anyone has used the argument of “we shouldn’t be erasing history” on here, but I have seen it on Twitter. I think this guy makes a reasonable point.

Teaching kids about the horrors of the past doesn’t mean we have to feel guilty. It could even make us feel proud about how far we’ve come. And, most importantly, it would give us a more nuanced understanding about how we’ve got where we are today (for example, I was surprised to learn that Liam Rosenior’s surname comes from his ancestors’ time as slaves). There’s no shame in learning about our past.

You're right of course but much of the relative comfort and freedom we live in today was forged by horrible events from our past. 

We need to acknowledge that but also celebrate our increased awareness. 

We can't pretend we are the good guys when mob rule is allowed to prevail. 

I just hope the protests lead to meaningful, inclusive discussions taking place. 

Lasting change needs a commitment on all sides. 

[DarkFruitsRam7]

16 minutes ago, Anag Ram said:

You're right of course but much of the relative comfort and freedom we live in today was forged by horrible events from our past. 

We need to acknowledge that but also celebrate our increased awareness. 

We can't pretend we are the good guys when mob rule is allowed to prevail. 

I just hope the protests lead to meaningful, inclusive discussions taking place. 

Lasting change needs a commitment on all sides. 

I agree that both sides need to come together somewhat.

I do think that a prime ministerial address, given the same gravitas as the coronavirus briefings, would go a long way to solving the issue.

Acknowledge the institutional issues that continue to exist and the everyday problems that BAME people (not just black people) face; announce adjustments to the national curriculum that address both the great achievements and terrible atrocities through British history; instigate a thorough review of how BAME people are treated across society and how we preserve the legacy of slave traders and the like.

This, along with the message of “Now the rioting, vandalism and Covid spreading must stop” would go a long way to bringing about a peaceful solution I feel.

Of course, I don’t think for one minute that Boris Johnson would do that. 

[Stive Pesley]

Unbelievable really that some people appear to have more of a problem with the statue of a slave master being torn down than they have with the reason people were protesting in the first place

The statue should be salvaged and put in a museum with it's full history (including it's dip in the Avon - and why) so that people can learn the truth

Sadly I suspect the people who tore it down will end up being disproportionately punished (like vandalism is the big problem we have to solve as a society...)

 

 

 

 

[Archied]

11 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Not to mention a certain leader of a religion that wasn't averse to slavery.  Should we start tearing down religious buildings now?

Comparing Colston to Jimmy Saville is a bit of a false equivalence as well - one was common place all around the world, the other was a crime.  If we apply modern day laws and values to history pretty much all of it looks bad.

I often wonder how we will be judged in 200yrs time.  Surely the most important asset of any country/continent is the people?  How will history judge us when they decide that we raped Africa of its best and brightest to work as Doctors and Nurses or in care homes etc for us?

Your right and I was aware the saville comparison was flawed in many ways but it is relevant in terms of do people make allowances as suits,

im always stunned the Micheal Jackson lovers want his music to be remembered and the rest forgotten,

im sure there’s a very large number of people like myself wondering where their place in all this is , I’m talking about people who have hated bigotry and racism and lived their lives accordingly now being told they haven’t done enough so are racist ,are responsible for the sins of they’re fathers so are inherently racist because of the colour of they’re skin ,

now I’m sure the labellers will be along soon to sort me out but you know what , what’s the bloody point of behaving like a decent human being for 50 years to be put in a box by the over righteous 

[ariotofmyown]

1 hour ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

Would you say the same if some one turned up later with a wrecking ball at the village of Tissington.  The place was built with plantation profits. Bugger those that live there, an hour to pack your bags.  

That would be a good point if @JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta had been defending the destruction of homes and businesses all over Bristol that had any connection to the slave trade.

You response should have been "would you say the same if some mindless thug had unscrewed a plaque praising the slave traders who heroically gave a fraction of their profits to Tissington. And then threw said plaque into a pond".

[TramRam]

1 hour ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

Would you say the same if some one turned up later with a wrecking ball at the village of Tissington.  The place was built with plantation profits. Bugger those that live there, an hour to pack your bags.  As far as I know discussion was taken on what to do with this statue by public consultation, the information relating to the statue had also been changed to reflect Bristols slave history, therefore it should have been there. In another couple of years with another consultation it may not have been .   You cannot go back and eradicate history by destroying everything  related to it unless you want a 'year Zero' scenario.  Should we get rid of Auschwitz or does it serve as a reminder going forward.  Should we go back another few hundred years and let anyone of Slavic ancestry tear down half the buildings in North Africa .

Or pull down the statue of Queen Victoria, Who was head on the Country while we disembowled India, Or Nelsons Column where there's a Black Face on one of the Plates below.

 

[Eddie]

57 minutes ago, jimmyp said:

I’m not interested in correcting the implication that Johnson is full of rubbish. 

I was interested in why the quote hadn’t been cited in full and was curious as to what else Boris had to say that day. 

Sometimes, different publications take parts of a quote or an article out of context, or sometimes leave the waffle out when the source is the same. In this instance, there was no discernible change in the meaning - nothing was 'out of context'. It was, to all intents and purposes, the same.

[Anon]

7 minutes ago, Archied said:

now I’m sure the labellers will be along soon to sort me out but you know what , what’s the bloody point of behaving like a decent human being for 50 years to be put in a box by the over righteous 

Same as anything else in life. The point is to do it for yourself because it's what you believe is right. The approval of self righteous morons is worth nothing.

It's more fun in the box anyway.

[DarkFruitsRam7]

To those asking "Where do we stop?", isn't that an issue common with nearly everything?

What difference is there between somebody aged 17 years and 364 days being refused at the bar and someone aged 18 years and 2 minutes being allowed to buy a drink? What difference is there between abortion being allowed at 23 weeks and 6 days but not at 24 weeks and 1 hour? 

A line always has to be drawn somewhere, but the nature of that line is always going to be arbitrary at some point. Maybe it is acceptable to bring down a statue of a slave trader but not a Roman emperor. Why? I don't know. I refer you to the paragraph above.

A baying mob probably isn't the best arbiter of where this line should be drawn, but let's not pretend that every distinction we make between what's right and wrong is perfectly rational. 

P.S. If someone knows the name of this concept, please let me know. It's an interesting dilemma that occurs pretty much everywhere.

[ariotofmyown]

4 minutes ago, Archied said:

im sure there’s a very large number of people like myself wondering where their place in all this is , I’m talking about people who have hated bigotry and racism and lived their lives accordingly now being told they haven’t done enough so are racist ,are responsible for the sins of they’re fathers so are inherently racist because of the colour of they’re skin ,

now I’m sure the labellers will be along soon to sort me out but you know what , what’s the bloody point of behaving like a decent human being for 50 years to be put in a box by the over righteous 

I don't feel like anyone is calling me racist for not doing enough to eradicate all forms of racism, or because one of my ancestors may have been a slave trader.

I feel like we have been correctly reminded that there is still lots more to do, and as a society, we can do much more.

For example, society just gave a huge majority to a Primeminister that has used openly racist language. Society should have been more like @maxjam who whilst supporting Brexit, refused to vote for Johnson's party.

We have recently seen prominent Brexiteer Steve Baker criticise Cummings for going too far in the Brexit referendum with sending leaflets about Turkey. And as recently as this year, an advisor to Cummings only had to resign for repeating terrible racist opinions.

Maybe in the future, people like Steve Baker or others in politics might now speak up at the time, even when it's inconvenient.

 

[Eddie]

30 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

Unbelievable really that some people appear to have more of a problem with the statue of a slave master being torn down than they have with the reason people were protesting in the first place

The statue should be salvaged and put in a museum with it's full history (including it's dip in the Avon - and why) so that people can learn the truth

Sadly I suspect the people who tore it down will end up being disproportionately punished (like vandalism is the big problem we have to solve as a society...)

 

 

 

 

In these times, I have no problem with the statue of Colston being tossed precisely where some slave ship masters tossed 'excess baggage' (i.e. dead slaves - or sometimes even live ones, chained together), and I certainly have no problem with people wishing to make a stand against racism in all forms, which is an outrage and a blight on our society, whether institutionalised or casual. I do, however, have a massive problem with the actual presence of large crowds at demonstrations at this particular point in time. This will spread the virus, therefore this will kill some people before they would otherwise have died. Find another way, and find it now. Don't be a total Cummings.

[TramRam]

49 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

I'd say there's a reason why Savile and Churchill should be treated differently. The former is a kids TV presenter whose atrocities were completely unrelated to his job, whereas the latter is a historical figure whose best (being a key figure in the victory over facism) and worst (Bengali famine, treatment of the Irish, Dresden, racist comments (and yes, I say racist as his views were outdated even for his time) moments were in the roles that he's remembered and revered for. Studying Savile would be studying a sexual abuser who raised a bit of money for charity, whereas studying Churchill properly would allow us to examine our own history and perhaps reassess the binary nature with which we tend to look at the past.

Why was Dresdon fire bombed? we were at War with Germany and it's allies, Germany Bombed Coventry, What should he have done, Gone to Berlin and pulled down the Otto von Bismarck Statue?

[DarkFruitsRam7]

1 minute ago, Eddie said:

In these times, I have no problem with the statue of Colston being tossed precisely where some slave ship masters tossed 'excess baggage' (i.e. dead slaves - or sometimes even live ones, chained together), and I certainly have no problem with people wishing to make a stand against racism in all forms, which is an outrace and a blight on our society, whether institutionalised or casual. I do, however, have a massive problem with the actual presence of large crowds at demonstrations at this particular point in time. This will spread the virus, therefore this will kill some people before they would otherwise have died. Find another way, and find it now. Don't me a total Cummings.

I genuinely think that the only way that this can be stopped immediately is by a prime ministerial address, as I suggested in an earlier post.

Of course, it would be preferable if the one person who can make such an address hadn't used the terms 'pickanninies' or 'watermelon smiles' to refer to black people in the past.

[DarkFruitsRam7]

1 minute ago, TramRam said:

Why was Dresdon fire bombed? we were at War with Germany and it's allies, Germany Bombed Coventry, What should he have done, Gone to Berlin and pulled down the Otto von Bismarck Statue?

I think a glorified revenge mission that killed tens of thousands of innocent civilians when the war was almost won was morally reprehensible. I probably should have left that out of my argument though, as I concede that it's open for debate.

[GboroRam]

1 hour ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

Not sure if anyone has used the argument of “we shouldn’t be erasing history” on here, but I have seen it on Twitter. I think this guy makes a reasonable point.

Teaching kids about the horrors of the past doesn’t mean we have to feel guilty. It could even make us feel proud about how far we’ve come. And, most importantly, it would give us a more nuanced understanding about how we’ve got where we are today (for example, I was surprised to learn that Liam Rosenior’s surname comes from his ancestors’ time as slaves). There’s no shame in learning about our past.

That's why Malcolm X took his name rather than Malcolm Little, his birth name.

 

[TramRam]

33 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

Unbelievable really that some people appear to have more of a problem with the statue of a slave master being torn down than they have with the reason people were protesting in the first place

The statue should be salvaged and put in a museum with it's full history (including it's dip in the Avon - and why) so that people can learn the truth

Sadly I suspect the people who tore it down will end up being disproportionately punished (like vandalism is the big problem we have to solve as a society...)

 

 

 

 

I've not got a problem with protests, I have a problem with aiming their anger/frustration or just a way of showing the crowd how cleaver they were at pulling it down, There's those that are whooping it up with glee, There's those like me who shake their heads and wonder where is this going.

Now it's headlines around the world, Hindsight is a wonderfull thing, Someone mentioned putting a Black sheet over it, I'll add, All those there should have turned their backs to it, Maybe laid down infront of it, And a sign draped around saying "remove this evil piece of work"

[Eddie]

3 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

I think a glorified revenge mission that killed tens of thousands of innocent civilians when the war was almost won was morally reprehensible. I probably should have left that out of my argument though, as I concede that it's open for debate.

It could most definitely be looked upon as a revenge mission, almost five years after the bombing of Coventry, yet equally it was a major distribution hub for troops and supplies. Even Churchill was moved to remark "(the) destruction of Dresden remains a serious query against the conduct of Allied bombing."

[Rev]

20 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

Maybe in the future, people like Steve Baker or others in politics might now speak up at the time, even when it's inconvenient.

He did speak up at the time.

https://mobile.twitter.com/SteveBakerHW/status/818574577248911364

He called him typically brilliant ?.