The Politics Thread 2020

[Anag Ram]

Much easier to criticise the past than work out the future.

Demonstrations are all very well but what are we proposing to do about racism in this country? Awareness is just a first step.  Who's writing the plan of what happens next? 

 

[Comrade 86]

 

1 hour ago, jimmyp said:

Thats not the quote that was originally posted by uttoxram75

Really?

@uttoxram75 quoted: 

"Leaving would cause business uncertainty, while embroiling the Government for years in a fiddly process of negotiating new arrangements, so diverting energy from the real problems that have nothing to do with Europe."

I quoted (note the sections in bold):

“It is also true that the single market is of considerable value to many UK companies and consumers, and that leaving would cause at least some business uncertainty, while embroiling the Government for several years in a fiddly process of negotiating new arrangements, so diverting energy from the real problems of this country – low skills, low social mobility, low investment etc – that have nothing to do with Europe.”

So yes, it is the same quote, from the same article, in the same paper, printed at the same time, just cited in full, which is precisely what you asked for!

Sheesh. No wonder you couldn't find it ? 

 

[Comrade 86]

32 minutes ago, Paul71 said:

I am trying to get my head around the logic that the protests only turn 'non-peaceful' because of police actions when protestors turn up with flares, smoke bombs and fireworks....

Maybe its normal stuff to carry round with you.

Who is saying that Paul? Not noticed anyone suggesting as much.

Protests clearly turn 'non-peaceful' when the rent-a-mob dheads get involved which unfortunately seems to be every single protest these days. At least the police arrested 12 of them yesterday. Just a shame so few knobbers can totally derail what would otherwise be a perfectly civil protest.

Perhaps the courts can issue them with 200 to 300 hours community service so the little scrotes can scrub clean anything that was defaced and the balance of their labour can be used to pay off the cost of any other reparations needed at the same time. If they fail to attend then give them 6 months in Wandsworth or Belmarsh. The Scrubs would probably not be quite the same 'experience'. I think EVERYONE wants to see an example made of them, to be fair.

[jimmyp]

19 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

 

Really?

@uttoxram75 quoted: 

"Leaving would cause business uncertainty, while embroiling the Government for years in a fiddly process of negotiating new arrangements, so diverting energy from the real problems that have nothing to do with Europe."

I quoted (note the sections in bold):

“It is also true that the single market is of considerable value to many UK companies and consumers, and that leaving would cause at least some business uncertainty, while embroiling the Government for several years in a fiddly process of negotiating new arrangements, so diverting energy from the real problems of this country – low skills, low social mobility, low investment etc – that have nothing to do with Europe.”

So yes, it is the same quote, from the same article, in the same paper, printed at the same time, just cited in full, which is precisely what you asked for!

Sheesh. No wonder you couldn't find it ? 

 

Why go to the effort of removing words from a quote before posting. Why not just copy and  post the quote in full in the first place?

Why not include the paragraph that came before? 

I also asked if he had the full column that he wrote that day and not just a snippet

[ariotofmyown]

14 minutes ago, jimmyp said:

Why go to the effort of removing words from a quote before posting. Why not just copy and  post the quote in full in the first place?

Why not include the paragraph that came before? 

I also asked if he had the full column that he wrote that day and not just a snippet

Do you know the content of the prior paragraph and does it correct the implication that Johnson is full of rubbish? There must be some point to all these requests? 

[Comrade 86]

15 minutes ago, jimmyp said:

Why go to the effort of removing words from a quote before posting. Why not just copy and  post the quote in full in the first place?

Why not include the paragraph that came before? 

I also asked if he had the full column that he wrote that day and not just a snippet

I dunno mate. Whya re you asking me? Why suggest it's not the same quote when it is? Why ask him to post it half a dozen times when you could simply post it yourself? Why ask for the full transcript when the article is all over the internet? So many questions, so little time.

Anyway, you're welcome mate. Over and out ?

[GboroRam]

21 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

Who is saying that Paul? Not noticed anyone suggesting as much.

Protests clearly turn 'non-peaceful' when the rent-a-mob dheads get involved which unfortunately seems to be every single protest these days. At least the police arrested 12 of them yesterday. Just a shame so few knobbers can totally derail what would otherwise be a perfectly civil protest.

Perhaps the courts can issue them with 200 to 300 hours community service so the little scrotes can scrub clean anything that was defaced and the balance of their labour can be used to pay off the cost of any other reparations needed at the same time. If they fail to attend then give them 6 months in Wandsworth or Belmarsh. The Scrubs would probably not be quite the same 'experience'. I think EVERYONE wants to see an example made of them, to be fair.

I also think that the rent-a-riot mobs who turn up are looking to turn the mass of demonstrators towards violence. If 20, as you describe them, knobbers start with the aggro but the crowd aren't interested in becoming violent, it'll quickly dissolve, the police will pick out the troublemakers, and the violent insurrection ends as a wet fart. But if the police meet violence with more violence, it'll escalate. That's what some of the police are looking for. I definitely think that tactically that's what the police try to engineer. It's a can't-lose outcome for the police - they rightfully say it was started by the demonstrators. However there's ways of policing, and we in this country normally find ways to police peacefully. On occasions, like during protests, the police can be, as you coined, knobbers.

[Comrade 86]

1 minute ago, ariotofmyown said:

Do you know the content of the prior paragraph and does it correct the implication that Johnson is full of rubbish? There must be some point to all these requests? 

Alas not it seems. Google is clearly not Jimmy's friend ?‍♂️

[ariotofmyown]

8 hours ago, cstand said:

It’s just mindless vandalism 

It's clearly not mindless, it's very deliberate.

[ariotofmyown]

1 minute ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

Alas not it seems. Google is clearly not Jimmy's friend ?‍♂️

Ask Jeeves?

[Comrade 86]

14 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

I also think that the rent-a-riot mobs who turn up are looking to turn the mass of demonstrators towards violence. If 20, as you describe them, knobbers start with the aggro but the crowd aren't interested in becoming violent, it'll quickly dissolve, the police will pick out the troublemakers, and the violent insurrection ends as a wet fart. But if the police meet violence with more violence, it'll escalate. That's what some of the police are looking for. I definitely think that tactically that's what the police try to engineer. It's a can't-lose outcome for the police - they rightfully say it was started by the demonstrators. However there's ways of policing, and we in this country normally find ways to police peacefully. On occasions, like during protests, the police can be, as you coined, knobbers.

Not disputing that mate. I've had my fair share off coppers in the past. I just think that these days there's always an element who have no interest in the premise of the march or demo and as proven yet again, it totally undermines the message behind the protest. You and I share a deal of political ideals and yet even we are discussing the violence and not the premise of the protest. All it serves to achieve is to give folk who are on the fence another reason not to support the movement. The benefits are literally zero. 

Equally, I can't really talk about the policing aspect of these protests because I've not attended any, but I would venture that snatch squads at the very first sign of trouble might work better than treating the entire crowd as if they are there only to cause problems. That said, it might be damning with feint praise, but our old bill are a deal better than the US cops, these days at least.

Talking of which...

FROM SKY NEWS

Minneapolis is poised to disband its police department after a majority of city council members vowed to end policing as the city knows it.

The dramatic move comes as the state of Minnesota has launched a civil rights investigation after the killing of George Floyd while in police custody.

Nine of the Minneapolis City Council's 12 members appeared with activists on Sunday afternoon and vowed to start the city's police force over again.

Council member Jeremiah Ellison promised that the council would "dismantle" the department.

FULL STORY HERE: https://news.sky.com/story/george-floyd-death-minneapolis-votes-to-disband-police-force-after-failing-to-reform-12002625

[Comrade 86]

9 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

Ask Jeeves?

Lycos?

[JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta]

Anyone complaining about the statue in Bristol being pulled down, how about we stick a statue of Jimmy Saville up in your local area? You know, to celebrate his charity work not the other stuff of course. I'm sure that would be fine.

It should have been removed long ago. Yes it's criminal damage and the people that did it will be prosecuted for it, but it shouldn't have been there in the first place.

[WhiteHorseRam]

1 hour ago, Anag Ram said:

Much easier to criticise the past than work out the future.

Demonstrations are all very well but what are we proposing to do about racism in this country? Awareness is just a first step.  Who's writing the plan of what happens next? 

 

It's not that long ago that they would have sent drunk on rum cavalry in to sort out these rioters. About now they would still be picking up the bodies.

The Past is a nasty place on close examination. For example, its only recently (last 100 to 150 years) that children and women have gained any rights at all.

We can't fix Eighteenth Century slavery from 2020, but we could calmly decide which statutes need taking down. It would have been far more powerful if they had protested peacefully and put a black sheet over Colston and started a Gov petition to have it removed.

Any military/political/trade figure who got a statue a while ago will have some nasty baggage. We need to decide democratically which ones get shifted to a very quiet spot where people don't have to walk past it.

Most importantly we need to attack modern day slavery and racism wherever we find it - we can do that and don't need a Tardis to get there.

[TramRam]

1 hour ago, Paul71 said:

I am trying to get my head around the logic that the protests only turn 'non-peaceful' because of police actions when protestors turn up with flares, smoke bombs and fireworks....

Maybe its normal stuff to carry round with you.

There's groups out there that go about their daily lives, They post on social media, They talk of how the British Political/Social system is broken, Then they wait for that opportunity , Foriegn powers are using social media to instigate/inflame a situation along with our Politically/Socially angry groups, It's not just "leftwing liberals" or "black minority" groups, There's people who enjoy their trips around the UK to cause trouble, Students are being lectured about the Wests centuries of oppressing the masses including minorities, Then in their groups talk about what they've been taught...something then resonates with them and the fight is born.

This is the only social media platform I use, It's pretty level headed, As I said in one of my prvious posts...those who would do harm are only a click away from those who instigate harm...and are out of harms way.

There's genuine protesters out there, But it only takes a few to get the masses to follow their cause.

 

 

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

8 minutes ago, JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta said:

Anyone complaining about the statue in Bristol being pulled down, how about we stick a statue of Jimmy Saville up in your local area? You know, to celebrate his charity work not the other stuff of course. I'm sure that would be fine.

It should have been removed long ago. Yes it's criminal damage and the people that did it will be prosecuted for it, but it shouldn't have been there in the first place.

Would you say the same if some one turned up later with a wrecking ball at the village of Tissington.  The place was built with plantation profits. Bugger those that live there, an hour to pack your bags.  As far as I know discussion was taken on what to do with this statue by public consultation, the information relating to the statue had also been changed to reflect Bristols slave history, therefore it should have been there. In another couple of years with another consultation it may not have been .   You cannot go back and eradicate history by destroying everything  related to it unless you want a 'year Zero' scenario.  Should we get rid of Auschwitz or does it serve as a reminder going forward.  Should we go back another few hundred years and let anyone of Slavic ancestry tear down half the buildings in North Africa .

[DarkFruitsRam7]

Not sure if anyone has used the argument of “we shouldn’t be erasing history” on here, but I have seen it on Twitter. I think this guy makes a reasonable point.

Teaching kids about the horrors of the past doesn’t mean we have to feel guilty. It could even make us feel proud about how far we’ve come. And, most importantly, it would give us a more nuanced understanding about how we’ve got where we are today (for example, I was surprised to learn that Liam Rosenior’s surname comes from his ancestors’ time as slaves). There’s no shame in learning about our past.

[jimmyp]

49 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

I dunno mate. Whya re you asking me? Why suggest it's not the same quote when it is? Why ask him to post it half a dozen times when you could simply post it yourself? Why ask for the full transcript when the article is all over the internet? So many questions, so little time.

Anyway, you're welcome mate. Over and out ?

 

I asked you because you went to the effort of writing a reply to my post.

Is a quote still the same when words  have been removed that possibly change the meaning. Is it not important to retain the exact wording, spelling, and punctuation of the original source whilst quoting.

I didn’t ask half a dozen times.

The article that has been written commenting on a small snippet of the original column Boris wrote is very easy to find on google. I originally asked if uttoxram could post the rest of the column Boris wrote that day. 

Do you have the full column Boris wrote? Perhaps google isn’t my friend. 

 

 

[jimmyp]

53 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

Do you know the content of the prior paragraph and does it correct the implication that Johnson is full of rubbish? There must be some point to all these requests? 

I’m not interested in correcting the implication that Johnson is full of rubbish. 

I was interested in why the quote hadn’t been cited in full and was curious as to what else Boris had to say that day. 

[Archied]

12 hours ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

Contrary to what I think you're implying, I did cover Churchill's heroics at school (albeit at A Level). If anything, I think we brushed over the less-than-savoury elements of his character. It's possible to recognise what he did for this country while condemning some of his problematic views and policies.

Him and saville?