Relegation battle

[CornwallRam]

2 minutes ago, Coconut said:

Of course they do

McClaren suffered injuries to Martin, Thorne, Mascarell & Russell yet despite signing Ince & Bent in January we fell from almost certainties for automatic promotion, went on a poo-show of a run and fell out of the play-offs on the final day against Reading.

Lampard only had to lose Mount for a short spell of games and our form became pretty much identical to what it is now despite having a better squad to choose from.

The constant disregarding how big an effect the injuries we've had this season by a select few is staggering. You are allowed to use injuries as a reason without it merely being an excuse!

 

 

Over the course of a season all teams suffer injuries. It's only the ones with poor managers who use it as an excuse for relegation. 

 

[Curtains]

35 minutes ago, Ellafella said:

Shinnie is a very good example. He only got in the team by default because there was nobody left to pick due to injury and suspension. Shinnie had been frozen out. Why? Because according to Phillip he {Shinnie} needed to learn to play football in the way that Cocu wanted. What did that mean? I still don’t know. 
Anyway Shinnie came in and played fantastic and showed what he can do. The point? Cocu is a very poor judge of the type of player that you need in the Championship. Had Shinnie changed the way he plays? Had Shinnie altered his style? No. Not one iota. So why did Cocu say that? What did he mean? And so why when Shinnie played did he do so well? 
Anybody solve this? 

Yes Shinnie came in after Huddlestone who was Cocu first choice got injured at Barnsley 

[Rammy03]

1 hour ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

I always thought that Cocu was brought in to completely overhaul the squad.

Well that's funny as I always thought he was brought in to build on last season's achievements. We've gone backwards massively with no signs of improvement at all

[May Contain Nuts]

53 minutes ago, Ellafella said:

Shinnie is a very good example. He only got in the team by default because there was nobody left to pick due to injury and suspension. Shinnie had been frozen out. Why? Because according to Phillip he {Shinnie} needed to learn to play football in the way that Cocu wanted. What did that mean? I still don’t know. 
Anyway Shinnie came in and played fantastic and showed what he can do. The point? Cocu is a very poor judge of the type of player that you need in the Championship. Had Shinnie changed the way he plays? Had Shinnie altered his style? No. Not one iota. So why did Cocu say that? What did he mean? And so why when Shinnie played did he do so well? 
Anybody solve this? 

A major issue with Shinnie's performances up in Scotland was his ball retention, with a pass success rate in the 60s. He was deployed mainly as a DM with little attacking responsibility - he'd win the ball back but then have a habit of giving it straight back to the opposition.

When he broke into our side he did so strongly, he was tackling well but also getting forward with the ball, linking up with other attacking players and his pass success rate had gone up into the 80s / 90s - and it wasn't just pointless backwards & sidewards passing.

So yes, he has changed his game.

His spell in the team coincided with our best form of the season, and funnily enough since he's been injured a big part of the problem we face at the minute is players stupidly losing possession!

You can try to discredit the manager all you want by claiming he was 'frozen out' - just as you try to when you bring out that pathetic poo about falling asleep during his interviews - but if there's one thing Cocu has done it's give everybody at least some opportunity to show what they can do., some more than others, some too much, but what manager isn't guilty of that?

 

[Cam the Ram]

1 minute ago, Coconut said:

 

His spell in the team coincided with our best form of the season, and funnily enough since he's been injured a big part of the problem we face at the minute is players stupidly losing possession!

 

We've had a hell of a come down from recent years, haven't we? Hughes, Thorne, Mount and Mascarell being our midfielders to dictate the game and even during Rowett's season we had Huddlestone pinging long diagonals and the odd glimpse of Kasey Palmer controlling the game. Now we have to watch Holmes drive with the ball before turning and playing it backwards or give it away trying to pass forwards and Lawrence driving with the ball before shooting from 40 yards. ?

[Uptherams]

1 hour ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

Indeed. But it's Cocu's brief to bring them into the team, isn't it? To change them from prospects into actual players. He needs the time to do that.

Any manager who is taken on is done so under terms that they do so. Neglect of our prospects is a sackable offence in it's own and I wouldn't be surprised if it's written into their contract in some form as to prevent big payouts. The narrative that the kids wouldn't get a look in if Cocu wasn't here is a false one. Regardless, the focus is not on these prospects. Who is lambasting him for giving them opportunities? It's everything else that is lacking. What exactly is our style of play? What exactly is our strength? We aren't good at anything. 

[May Contain Nuts]

28 minutes ago, CornwallRam said:

Over the course of a season all teams suffer injuries. It's only the ones with poor managers who use it as an excuse for relegation.

So basically no acknowledgement of any evidence provided for how much having multiple injuries all occuring at the same time can and has affected other (presumably in your eyes, far better) managers and to what levels their team's performance dropped.

Nope, instead you just repeat yourself.

Not bothering with you again, and I'd avise other people to do the same.

[Ellafella]

9 minutes ago, Coconut said:

A major issue with Shinnie's performances up in Scotland was his ball retention, with a pass success rate in the 60s. He was deployed mainly as a DM with little attacking responsibility - he'd win the ball back but then have a habit of giving it straight back to the opposition.

When he broke into our side he did so strongly, he was tackling well but also getting forward with the ball, linking up with other attacking players and his pass success rate had gone up into the 80s / 90s - and it wasn't just pointless backwards & sidewards passing.

So yes, he has changed his game.

His spell in the team coincided with our best form of the season, and funnily enough since he's been injured a big part of the problem we face at the minute is players stupidly losing possession!

You can try to discredit the manager all you want by claiming he was 'frozen out' - just as you try to when you bring out that pathetic poo about falling asleep during his interviews - but if there's one thing Cocu has done it's give everybody at least some opportunity to show what they can do., some more than others, some too much, but what manager isn't guilty of that?

 

1. He was frozen out; Shinnie was on the point of leaving after 2 months ...

2. ...so no Cocu hadn’t given everybody the opportunity to show what they could do. Shinnie played only because we had nobody else. 
3. Find me the piece where I said something about falling asleep during his interviews. I don’t recall that. 
 

And Shinnie hasn’t altered his game. He was a very highly regarded captain in Scotland and just needed the chance to demonstrate his quality. 

[GenBr]

1 hour ago, ramboy63 said:

He may of had only a month pre season but he as now had half a season and still does not no what formation to play let alone what side to play even given the fact we have had injuries like every other side gets in a season

10m on one player in the summer is now starting to luck a poor decision,i am not saying Beilik is a failure but i have not been bowled over at the same time.Any other manager would probably been shown the door by now so Mel must have a long term plan,lets hope that plan does not include relegation as i would rather get rid of Cocu now than loose our place in the championship

My post is in relation to the signings that were made not being his. You can argue the other aspects of Cocus reivn, but that is not the point i was making.

[May Contain Nuts]

9 minutes ago, Ellafella said:

1. He was frozen out; Shinnie was on the point of leaving after 2 months ...

2. ...so no Cocu hadn’t given everybody the opportunity to show what they could do. Shinnie played only because we had nobody else. 
3. Find me the piece where I said something about falling asleep during his interviews. I don’t recall that. 
 

And Shinnie hasn’t altered his game. He was a very highly regarded captain in Scotland and just needed the chance to demonstrate his quality. 

 

1 & 2) We'll have to agree to disgaree. Frozen out means no hope of ever getting in the team and other players being picked out of position ahead of you. I'd say Paterson has now been frozen out, but he seems to be a bit of a bad egg and will be returning to Bristol shortly.

3) Apologies if you weren't one of those making sarcastic remarks about his interview style. A case of mistaken identity, it happens!

4) We'll have to agree to disgaree, again! Hey, at least you were willing to discuss it. He's improved his passing and there's evidence to show it.

[G STAR RAM]

4 hours ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

Of course it's not irrelevant. It seems to me that the manager has his preferences as to how he wants to play and is conflicted between playing his way and finding a way to use the players he has. 

Of the examples I chose, Davies and Forsyth are only playing because Clark is injured and Keogh is gone; Martin's 'glory days' are so far behind him that previous managers have sent him out on loan; Lawrence offers no consistency, which is a source of frustration for everyone and I'm sure Cocu is no exception; and I'm pretty sure Holmes is only filling in in midfield. There are others I could have included - Malone, Roos, for example - but those were the ones that played yesterday.

The thing is though, when you are mentioning half of the team not being able to play how he wants surely you have to question the sanity of trying to persist with it?

Youd imagine all of them players will be offloaded so what is the point in trying to get them to play a style that they are incapable of playing?

Get some points on the board, get some confidence then start blooding the players that are going to be able to play the style he wants ready for next season. 

[Tyler Durden]

16 minutes ago, Coconut said:

So basically no acknowledgement of any evidence provided for how much having multiple injuries all occuring at the same time can and has affected other (presumably in your eyes, far better) managers and to what levels their team's performance dropped.

Nope, instead you just repeat yourself.

Not bothering with you again, and I'd avise other people to do the same.

If you are unable to win an argument then muddy it's context. 

You can't take out your own frustrations on another poster if you are unable yourself to successfully perform a coup de grace regards your own arguments. 

[cannable]

3 hours ago, CornwallRam said:

And other sides don't suffer injuries? Previous Derby managers haven't suffered injuries? 

Yeah, McClaren managed the 14/15 injury crisis well didn’t he…

[cannable]

17 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

The thing is though, when you are mentioning half of the team not being able to play how he wants surely you have to question the sanity of trying to persist with it?

Youd imagine all of them players will be offloaded so what is the point in trying to get them to play a style that they are incapable of playing?

Get some points on the board, get some confidence then start blooding the players that are going to be able to play the style he wants ready for next season. 

We ARENT trying to persist with it though. We have been going long for about five games now. 

[May Contain Nuts]

23 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

If you are unable to win an argument then muddy it's context. 

You can't take out your own frustrations on another poster if you are unable yourself to successfully perform a coup de grace regards your own arguments. 

Were you trying to sound clever with that pseudointellectual BS? If so then you've failed, badly.

The irony of claiming I muddied the argument and then coming out with that ?

I answered the initial post quite clearly giving an example of how concurrent injuries can seriously alter form, the reply I received after that completely ignored the point put forward, so what's the point in continuing the discussion?

[Tyler Durden]

1 minute ago, Coconut said:

Were you trying to sound clever with that pseudointellectual BS? If so then you've failed, badly.

The irony of claiming I muddied the argument and then coming out with that ?

There was a supposition tha

You're obviously taking out your own frustrations on another poster who doesn't agree with your opinion by telling them to stop repeating the same information and also by encouraging other posters to ignore the person too. 

If you were able to post a conclusive summary to your own argument you wouldnt feel the need to do this 

Not sure what is BS about this hey ho. 

[ram1964]

Don't see us going down this season,however team and individual performances have been dier. As much as you can make allowances for Cocu and his staff they are ultimately responsible for getting the most out of what he has got. We should be seeing week in week improvement with regard performances and this has not happened, however changing managers has never got us anything other than a quick fix so Cocu has my support at present on what is proving to be be a challenging job for numerous reasons. Perhaps if we had stuck with other previous managers given them time ,patience we wouldn't be where we are now ,Lets stay behind the manager give him are full support and if it it goes this up the players ,management and Mel can only blame themselves.

COYR 

[Jourdan]

Injuries are a factor. I don’t think anyone is disputing that. But are they the most significant factor?

It is easy to forget that our joint worst run of the season - 7 league games without a win from August to September - came when we had many of those currently injured available to play.

[cannable]

1 minute ago, Jourdan said:

Injuries are a factor. I don’t think anyone is disputing that. But are they the most significant factor?

It is easy to forget that our joint worst run of the season - 7 league games without a win from August to September - came when we had many of those currently injured available to play.

That’s the spell to criticise Cocu. We were trying to play his way and it wasn’t working. 

Results picked up when we went grittier with Davies and Shinnie in the side. 

[CornwallRam]

10 minutes ago, cannable said:

Yeah, McClaren managed the 14/15 injury crisis well didn’t he…

He had the advantage of winning a lot of games during that season. Injuries always happen. Bad refereeing decisions always happen. It generally evens out. Cocu doesn't have any good runs to insulate him as he has managed the team poorly.