Positives about Cocu

[Dean (hick) Saunders]

Got to give him until the end of the season minimum.

(If we have not won an away game by then he should fall on his sword)

[Nuwtfly]

1 minute ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said:

It seems to me that he would be better suited as a director of football for the club than as a manager/coach of the first team....

We have needed a dof for a very long time but I'm concerned that cocu isn't able to combine the two effectively and whether we would be better to have someone like wassell as a coach under the dof.

I understand what you're getting at. Cocu had all his success working under a Director of Football at PSV (I believe it as the guy who is now at Everton?). I've wanted us to bring in a DoF for years now; but a competent one (remember Evans?!). PC would probably benefit from a DoF and it might allow him to focus on the football more. Who knows. I'm not convinced the absence of one is the reason we're playing badly.

As for Wassell - did you watch us under his tenure? We nearly fell out of the play-offs under him, and he presided over two of the worst Derby games I have ever been to (Rotherham away and the first play-off game against Hull). I don't say that lightly either, but I can remember perfectly well the performances under Paul Jewell: the worst Derby manager I have seen lead this club. 

[Millenniumram]

12 minutes ago, BathRam72 said:

Brilliant,  let's get in yet another manager.  With another philosophy.  Give him the same mish mash team that has been cobbled together over the past 7 years by the same amount of managers. Give him until March/April. When it doesnt work, let's get rid of him and start again.

It is exactly the above that has us in this mess. Too many managers who were not given enough time to build their own team before getting moved on.

Cocu had no preseason due to the Lampard debacle.  Lampard only did so well because of the favours he pulled in and the loans. 

Cocu has not even had a transfer window to bring in his type of player.

The trouble is with some fans is they think Ferby have a god given right to be promoted at the very first attempt. 

 

This is the problem.... if we just appointed managers with the same philosophy, we wouldn’t be in this mess. MM said after Lampard went we’d get a manager to carry on the style. We didn’t. We got Cocu who’s style is far far far more defensive than his predecessor. We quite clearly didn’t do our homework, and that’s the problem. Not that we sack too many managers, but because we don’t appoint the right ones in the first place. We were promised another Lampard, we got another Rowett.

So no, we don’t need a new manager with a different philosophy. We need a new manager with the RIGHT philosophy. An attacking, progressive philosophy.

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

Just now, Nuwtfly said:

I understand what you're getting at. Cocu had all his success working under a Director of Football at PSV (I believe it as the guy who is now at Everton?). I've wanted us to bring in a DoF for years now; but a competent one (remember Evans?!). PC would probably benefit from a DoF and it might allow him to focus on the football more. Who knows. I'm not convinced the absence of one is the reason we're playing badly.

As for Wassell - did you watch us under his tenure? We nearly fell out of the play-offs under him, and he presided over two of the worst Derby games I have ever been to (Rotherham away and the first play-off game against Hull). I don't say that lightly either, but I can remember perfectly well the performances under Paul Jewell: the worst Derby manager I have seen lead this club. 

I personally thought wassell had a very good tenure with us...he definitely had to learn on the job but he seemed to so very quickly (which led us back into the playoffs)... albeit with advice from a more experienced source(which sort of reinforces the dof theory).

 

 

[NottsRam77]

20 minutes ago, BathRam72 said:

Brilliant,  let's get in yet another manager.  With another philosophy.  Give him the same mish mash team that has been cobbled together over the past 7 years by the same amount of managers. Give him until March/April. When it doesnt work, let's get rid of him and start again.

It is exactly the above that has us in this mess. Too many managers who were not given enough time to build their own team before getting moved on.

Cocu had no preseason due to the Lampard debacle.  Lampard only did so well because of the favours he pulled in and the loans. 

Cocu has not even had a transfer window to bring in his type of player.

The trouble is with some fans is they think Ferby have a god given right to be promoted at the very first attempt. 

 

I’m saying this Cos I’m hacked off and being mischievous I know 

but  If he hasn’t had a transfer window to bring in his own players 

then by what method did bielik, Dowell and Paterson arrive by ?

All his players ... all “technical players” 

and my god I’m using the words “technical players” loosely after today 

no matter how badly ur set up to play or how good the opposition are a player of the apparent “technical” standard of Dowell and bielik should still be able to complete more than 1 in 5 passes 

it was that bad today 

and don’t start me on the lack of effort once they had gift wrapped possession back to the opposition 

I’m fuming with today, forget the result I want to know what the actual duck they do on the training ground Cos it ain’t passing to  each other.

maybe if they spent less time getting smashed and more time practising being well paid athletes  we might see a little more endeavour 

the lack of effort to retain the ball or win it back by our midfield today was shocking

on the plus side I thought the back 3 were pretty solid considering they have nothing infront of them 

my biggest concern though is that we’re seeing players regress 

bogle and holmes look half the players they we’re opening few games 

waghorn despite his goals just looks off it 

Lawrence is even more inconsistent than he ever has been at this club which was already pretty high and don’t get me started on the handling / mishandling of Jack Marriott 

In one week, out for two 

lone striker one week, off Martin next, out wide the next, on the bench the next out of the 18 next 

I’m looking for positives mate I really am but I’m really really struggling to see any sort of progress 

and I’m talking low level stuff here 

I came into this season with minimal expectations which was fine but I’m just struggling to take anything atm after today 

 

[Jourdan]

I can understand why people might believe that Cocu could achieve something here over the long term.

But like I've said before, it could be a case of us making the right appointment at the wrong time. I just suspect Cocu has come in with methods that have perhaps gone over players' heads and overcomplicated what is a simple game. So many personnel changes, so many tactical adjustments, so many changes of system.

Would it be fair to say that Cocu would probably be having more joy with a better set of players who can meet such demands?

Appointing Cocu would have seemed unfathomable six months ago. He has the kind of track record and reputation that could attract a Premier League job, and so it's the kind of appointment most would expect us to make if we were a recently promoted Premier League team looking to move to the next level.

The problem is we find ourselves in the bottom half of the Championship - a world away from what Cocu has experienced previously - and his inexperience of this level of football is being exposed almost week in, week out.

Timing is everything in football. It speaks volumes that no-one was clamouring for a manager with the profile of Cocu in the summer. People understood the timing was all wrong. We needed a manager to get us out of the division first of all, before we reeled in the big fish.

[Coneheadjohn]

He seems a top bloke.

He speaks well with a nice accent.

Very smart.

Give me a bit of time, I’ll think of some more.

[NottsRam77]

Our passing was absolutely atrocious 

Our odds of finding a a black shirt today wouldn’t have been made any worse if the players had been blindfolded
 

it may even have improved things 

I’m laughing as I type this as there’s nothing else to do 

but the sad thing is it’s true 

[BathRam72]

9 minutes ago, NottsRam77 said:

I’m saying this Cos I’m hacked off and being mischievous I know 

but  If he hasn’t had a transfer window to bring in his own players 

then by what method did bielik, Dowell and Paterson arrive by ?

All his players ... all “technical players” 

and my god I’m using the words “technical players” loosely after today 

no matter how badly ur set up to play or how good the opposition are a player of the apparent “technical” standard of Dowell and bielik should still be able to complete more than 1 in 5 passes 

it was that bad today 

and don’t start me on the lack of effort once they had gift wrapped possession back to the opposition 

I’m fuming with today, forget the result I want to know what the actual duck they do on the training ground Cos it ain’t passing to  each other.

maybe if they spent less time getting smashed and more time practising being well paid athletes  we might see a little more endeavour 

the lack of effort to retain the ball or win it back by our midfield today was shocking

on the plus side I thought the back 3 were pretty solid considering they have nothing infront of them 

my biggest concern though is that we’re seeing players regress 

bogle and holmes look half the players they we’re opening few games 

waghorn despite his goals just looks off it 

Lawrence is even more inconsistent than he ever has been at this club which was already pretty high and don’t get me started on the handling / mishandling of Jack Marriott 

In one week, out for two 

lone striker one week, off Martin next, out wide the next, on the bench the next out of the 18 next 

I’m looking for positives mate I really am but I’m really really struggling to see any sort of progress 

and I’m talking low level stuff here 

I came into this season with minimal expectations which was fine but I’m just struggling to take anything atm after today 

 

I am not sure he had much say in any of the panic preseason players to be honest.

He certainly didnt get enough time to evaluate the current crap sorry crop and decide exactly which players he needed. If he had any say, he was late to the party through no fault of his own and only had scraps to choose from

[Sean]

Derby fans are so bloody fickle.

All singing Cocu's praises just two weeks ago and now he's useless.

Yes, the away form is terrible but we're nine points clear of relegation and going into a favourable set of fixtures, I don't think we need to hit the panic button over anything.

Do you really know the people you are working with and the dynamics of everything involving your new job when you've been there five months? Add to the fact it is in a foreign country and is a form of your industry that you have no previous experience of (English football), of course it's going to take time.

Considering half of our play off team left the club and the other half got injured I think he's doing a great job. He could be better, but judge him next season when he's had two transfer windows to get settled and put his stamp on this team.

[MackworthRamIsGod]

24 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

I can understand why people might believe that Cocu could achieve something here over the long term.

But like I've said before, it could be a case of us making the right appointment at the wrong time. I just suspect Cocu has come in with methods that have perhaps gone over players' heads and overcomplicated what is a simple game. So many personnel changes, so many tactical adjustments, so many changes of system.

Would it be fair to say that Cocu would probably be having more joy with a better set of players who can meet such demands?

Appointing Cocu would have seemed unfathomable six months ago. He has the kind of track record and reputation that could attract a Premier League job, and so it's the kind of appointment most would expect us to make if we were a recently promoted Premier League team looking to move to the next level.

The problem is we find ourselves in the bottom half of the Championship - a world away from what Cocu has experienced previously - and his inexperience of this level of football is being exposed almost week in, week out.

Timing is everything in football. It speaks volumes that no-one was clamouring for a manager with the profile of Cocu in the summer. People understood the timing was all wrong. We needed a manager to get us out of the division first of all, before we reeled in the big fish.

I think you have nailed it there.

We almost need a Warnock to get us promoted and then Cocu to take over once we are in the prem with 50 million to spend.

[Nuwtfly]

3 minutes ago, MackworthRamIsGod said:

I think you have nailed it there.

We almost need a Warnock to get us promoted and then Cocu to take over once we are in the prem with 50 million to spend.

Is that what you'd like to see? Cocu go and us bring in a Warnock type? McCarthy. Pulis.

Not a dig: just a genuine question. Because that's my idea of footballing hell.

[desirelines]

I would say that one positive is the amount of time he's devoting to the Academy

[RoyMac5]

54 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

Thing is Roy, if you had it your way you'd have got Clough sacked inside a season. Maybe just once you should exercise some patience and see what develops after a season or two with the same coaching staff in situ. Much as I respect a lot of your opinions, you are the least patient fan on this forum and this despite knowing the damage that has been done by constantly churning over managers these last 6 years.

Did Clough get us anywhere then or are you talking about senior?!

Errr the churn is proven right - how many of our past mangers are currently successful?

I see no problem in questioning just what the hell all the (unsuccessful) tinkering and odd selections by Cocu is about. I haven't yet called for him to go although others have. (I'm waiting to see how Wayne develops as a coach! :p)

[TigerTedd]

I’ve seen comparisons with Bristol on the March thread. ‘They’ve got a crap squad, Weimar starts for them, look where they are.’

the key difference is, they’ve had their manager in place for a good few seasons. 

This season is reminding me a lot of the cloudy years (Jnr, I’m not old enough to remember Snr). 

It was a bit of a bore fest, but I think most of us give credit to Nigel for transitioning us from the ‘worst team in history’ to a club that, with just a couple of tweaks, Mac got playing like Barca. 

Cloudy brought through a lot of youth, mostly forced, through lack of funds, and while our academy wasn’t half as good as it is now. And they weren’t great at first. Mason Bennett getting a debut at 15 was exciting, but he’s not the next Rooney, (as good as our academy is, I couldn’t see any of the under 16s getting a full debut these days), but he was able to build the foundations of Hughes and Hendrick. 

Jury’s still out as to whether or not he could have completed the project. 

Farke at Norwich didn’t ser the world alight in his first season. There are many examples of managers that need that first season to sort everything out. 

Cocu is a class manager. Properly class. Not just cos he was a class player. He has the pedigree to prove it, and he talks the talk. If we give him the time it will pay dividends for a long, long time. 

This season will be a bit of a slog. We all new this. This is like when we’re all somehow surprised when it snows in winter and the airports all get shut like we’ve never seen snow before. So why are we all surprised when, shock, it turns out to be a slog.

at least we’ve got Rooney to add some pazzaz and excitement after Christmas, so it won’t be a total bore fest right off of a season.

Or we can sack Cocu and go for a Billy Davies style quick fix. Might even get us promoted on the first time of asking, but how well did that go for us?

[Gone]

Positive is he’s our manager, yes it’s absolutely crap at the minute. However we are paying the price for last seasons strategy, we relied on loans as the spine in our team. They’ve gone and we are left with the dross (Holmes, Zoom etc). Give him 2/3 transfer windows at least, this guy knows what he’s doing he just need the tools to do it. 

Although he has to change it away from home and quickly or I fear Mel will change it for him . 

[Comrade 86]

6 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Did Clough get us anywhere then or are you talking about senior?!

Errr the churn is proven right - how many of our past mangers are currently successful?

I see no problem in questioning just what the hell all the (unsuccessful) tinkering and odd selections by Cocu is about. I haven't yet called for him to go although others have. (I'm waiting to see how Wayne develops as a coach! :p)

I'll accept some of your points if not all and I was referring to Old Big Head. I get the impression he's working through systems perhaps even knowing that some won't work, just in a methodical way. I don't see the tinkering lasting nor do I see a lot of the current players surviving the cull when he gets to really start shaping the squad as he wants it. For me, while there are elements of quality, there remain a number of players who just aren't up to scratch and never will be. I can see at least 2 or 3 of the U23's being first team regulars next season but I also understand his reticence to chuck too many in right now. I seriously doubt his reasoning is as simplistic as he doesn't see their ability, for sure.

[Tyler Durden]

Farke. Must be the most over quoted example on here of a manager who didn't hack it the first season then managed to get the same team promoted the following. 

There though is no similar discussion about for every Farke there are twenty other managers where their intial failings carried on to the next season rather then be the exception to the rule. 

Jury's out whether we have a Farke or whether Cocu is one of the cannon fodder. Statistically it doesn't look promising.

[RoyMac5]

2 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

I get the impression he's working through systems perhaps even knowing that some won't work, just in a methodical way. I don't see the tinkering lasting nor do I see a lot of the current players surviving the cull when he gets to really start shaping the squad as he wants it...

That's what you're hoping it is. Because any other answer would lead to many more questions.

[TheresOnlyWanChope]

Grinding out some good home wins