Positives about Cocu

[AndyinLiverpool]

6 hours ago, Nick_Ram said:

Its his full time job you belter. Of course he should know more than the fans!

You're desperation for him to succeed has blinded you to the fact that this style of play is even worse than Rowett ball.

Are you not desperate for him to succeed? A successful Cocu is a successful Derby County. 

[Bubbles]

10 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

So our recruitment is shocking and the only reason we did well last season was because of 3 players we recruited?

But of course they were down to the manager.

So bad recruitment is down to the recruitment team and good recruitment down to the manager.

Any evidence to back this up?

No, that's not what I was insisting, apologies it came across that way.

What I'm trying to say is, 

First of all, Yes, we was all astonished when we brought in Mount, and Tomori (Although we didn't know as much about Tomori but look how incredible he turned out to be!)

The sole reason that we got them two in was because of Lamps and Jody Morris who had experience with these lads.

Frank and Jody had June onwards to identify alongside the recruitment team the players that they wanted.

Another thing that makes this easier for them is the fact they were both situated in England already, thus not requiring to move countries, settle in etc.

They had time to do their research and develop a better understanding on the players the recruitment team scouted.

With Cocu. he was appointed on the 5th July, he then had to move to this country, alongside his backroom staff, then get shipped off on a, lets be honest, ridiculous pre season tour in the USA straight away!

He hardly had time to settle in and do as much research as he could.

For what it's worth the point I am getting across is the fact that I am fairly sure that these players were drafted in before he came to the helm.

And it was just a case of him wanting to strengthen so saying yes and putting his trust in the recruitment team.

I genuinely believe that we will see actual Cocu signings in Jan and in the summer, now he has had time to develop his understanding on the league and what it entails (I think thats the right word)

Also, going a bit off topic here, but what has Liam Rosenior actually done? Lol.

 

But to answer your original statement of "So bad recruitment is down to the recruitment team and good recruitment down to the manager."

No, that is not what I was trying to get across at...

I think if Cocu had an extra month he would of been able to help with the recruitment and get some actual players in who fit with his philosophy.

I hope this makes sense, It's 5 to 9 and I'm half asleep,

Cheers

 

[G STAR RAM]

5 minutes ago, Squid said:

No, that's not what I was insisting, apologies it came across that way.

What I'm trying to say is, 

First of all, Yes, we was all astonished when we brought in Mount, and Tomori (Although we didn't know as much about Tomori but look how incredible he turned out to be!)

The sole reason that we got them two in was because of Lamps and Jody Morris who had experience with these lads.

Sorry, my response was not aimed at you, I should have quoted the post it was aimed at.

Is there any evidence to support your quote above?

How do we know it wasnt the recruitment team that identified these as potential loanees and it was Lamps connections that enabled us to get the deals done?

[Sheikh n Bake]

13 hours ago, Coconut said:

Not blind to anything, just tired of the ceaseless droning bores who love to point out all the negatives and dismiss anyone's attempt to look at mitigating factors as excuse making and 'desperation', posters who never offer any balance in their opinions and never even attempt to look at situations from more than one angle.

We can all see that we have some major issues! Just because we can see them it doesn't mean we have to endlessly spam topic after topic after topic making the same 3 points. 20 posts an hour saying the exact same bloody thing.

It's even more boring than the football.

The fact you said 'your' desperation for him to succeed says a lot, it would indicate that there are people who aren't desperate for him to succeed?

 

 

Of course i want him to succeed. But the difference is that I'm not so desperate for him to succeed as an individual that i can actually see that there's literally no progress on the pitch that would indicate any progress. He's shown me nothing after 20 games or so that indicate he's on the right track.

Of course I'm desperate for Derby to succeed. But i won't blindly back Cocu at DCFCs expense. 

£8m spent and some terrible loan signings. Some awful team selections and worse tactical displays than a Garry Rowett team.

Of course if he keeps spending Mels money which seems likely he'll inevitably improve; so it's a win win for both of us.

[Tyler Durden]

14 hours ago, Coconut said:

Not blind to anything, just tired of the ceaseless droning bores who love to point out all the negatives and dismiss anyone's attempt to look at mitigating factors as excuse making and 'desperation', posters who never offer any balance in their opinions and never even attempt to look at situations from more than one angle.

We can all see that we have some major issues! Just because we can see them it doesn't mean we have to endlessly spam topic after topic after topic making the same 3 points. 20 posts an hour saying the exact same bloody thing.

It's even more boring than the football.

The fact you said 'your' desperation for him to succeed says a lot, it would indicate that there are people who aren't desperate for him to succeed?

 

 

Isn't this a forum though? Are you saying that just because something is blindingly obvious to the populous then it shouldn't warrant discussion on here?

If we are discussing the same points ad nauseam then surely the root cause of this needs to be examined  i.e. nothing is actually changing which seems to be the most salient point?

As a reponse I'd say to Cocu give these people a positive reason NOT to be boring and regurgitate the same posts by actually setting his team out in away games with the intent of actually scoring a goal and even actually score one rather then drawing blanks in the last 5 away games which quite rightly leaves Cocu totally open to criticism.

This isn't particularly aimed at you per se but sweeping things under the carpet by not discussing then isn't an acceptable proposition.

 

[TramRam]

Negatives.

Our identity is negligible, His constant swapping of personel, The systems he plays are confusing, 5 at the back, 3 at the back, 2 wing backs, Maybe 4 at the back, One forward, Keeps playing Lawrence where there appears to be almost no consistency from him(unless below average)the inclusion of Rosenior as a coach of some sort, Our horrendous lack of goals 20 from 20 games will surely drag us further down, Throwing £8 million on an untried Bielic in a very competative division seems like hope rather than planning. Coming into a division as a novice at this level.

Positives.

Morris will give him 2 transfer windows to put a stamp on this team...imo. 

I'm in the keep him camp....just, We have 2 games coming up this week, I'm hopefull more than confident.

[S8TY]

On 08/12/2019 at 01:19, Millenniumram said:

20 goals in 20 games. Jayden Bogle at right wing. I mean come on people. Open your eyes. I’ve defended Cocu a lot earlier this season, but he’s totally lost me these last couple of games. Don’t care what quality of players are at his disposal, if he’s deploying those sort of tactics, then he’s not the right man to lead us forward imo. Can give him all the time in the world, the best we’re gonna do is build an effective Rowett team. Is that the long term aim? Really? With a manager this defensive minded, you can give him until 2050 and we won’t see Mac one esque football, a leopard rarely changes its spots. The PSV fans all said it, and so did the Fenerbache fans.

I don’t think Mel got Cocu in to play negative football I just don’t believe he believes himself that we are good enough and have the players ...Bogle at RW is giving him the chance to show if he can cut it attack wise because defending wise he’s been crap...look at goals conceded at Wembley ( first goal) Charlton Forest this season and last season and many more games where his defending is toss ...Cocu is either giving him a go at RW to encourage him to attack and cause problems with his pace as we don’t have a right sided winger  or he’s saying you’re not a RB let’s see what you can offer or it’s a learning opportunity to maybe put him back in at RB at some stage but what is obvious is this ...we look better defensively without Bogle in the back four ...the lad is only young but has been way too over hyped ...he has a lot to learn Millennium imo 

[RoyMac5]

9 hours ago, S8TY said:

...he has a lot to learn Millennium imo 

No-one said he didn't. That doesn't make him crap.

[S8TY]

52 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

No-one said he didn't. That doesn't make him crap.

here we go...who said he was crap..".he has a lot to learn!! " ...what is apparent is we look better defensively without him at RB 

ps ...apologies just read my previous post i meant he's been playing crap not that he's a crap player...there is a difference

[Millenniumram]

12 hours ago, S8TY said:

I don’t think Mel got Cocu in to play negative football I just don’t believe he believes himself that we are good enough and have the players ...Bogle at RW is giving him the chance to show if he can cut it attack wise because defending wise he’s been crap...look at goals conceded at Wembley ( first goal) Charlton Forest this season and last season and many more games where his defending is toss ...Cocu is either giving him a go at RW to encourage him to attack and cause problems with his pace as we don’t have a right sided winger  or he’s saying you’re not a RB let’s see what you can offer or it’s a learning opportunity to maybe put him back in at RB at some stage but what is obvious is this ...we look better defensively without Bogle in the back four ...the lad is only young but has been way too over hyped ...he has a lot to learn Millennium imo 

I don’t think he did either, but I don’t think whoever presented him as an option to Mel did his research on him. Everything I’ve seen online about his time at PSV and Fenerbache suggests he was very much defence first. I don’t buy it’s anything to do with the squad. Bogle still has a lot to learn, of course he does, he’s younger than me! But I’d hardly call him at rb a problem, his defensive game maybe is a little shaky at times, but in generally it’s more than good enough, and much better than most in this division. Haven’t at any point looked at our defence and thought Bogle is a problem. You stick him at RW and you negate his attacking qualities, because his effectiveness comes from arriving from deep and having less attention from defenders, similarly to TAA at Liverpool. Stick him on the wing, he becomes a marked man and far less effective, and we end up with Wisdom at right back who’s got little in the way of ball carrying ability, which further weakens our ability to get out from the back. Every way you look at it, Bogle at RW rather than RB weakens us. And I can’t see any justification for it, if we had an injury crisis on the wings then maybe, but the only winger out currently is bennett, we’ve got more than enough cover to not resort to playing players out of their natural roles.

Cocu needs to stop being so defensive and get Bogle back to RB, where he’s amongst the best outside the prem.

[S8TY]

1 hour ago, Millenniumram said:

I don’t think he did either, but I don’t think whoever presented him as an option to Mel did his research on him. Everything I’ve seen online about his time at PSV and Fenerbache suggests he was very much defence first. I don’t buy it’s anything to do with the squad. Bogle still has a lot to learn, of course he does, he’s younger than me! But I’d hardly call him at rb a problem, his defensive game maybe is a little shaky at times, but in generally it’s more than good enough, and much better than most in this division. Haven’t at any point looked at our defence and thought Bogle is a problem. You stick him at RW and you negate his attacking qualities, because his effectiveness comes from arriving from deep and having less attention from defenders, similarly to TAA at Liverpool. Stick him on the wing, he becomes a marked man and far less effective, and we end up with Wisdom at right back who’s got little in the way of ball carrying ability, which further weakens our ability to get out from the back. Every way you look at it, Bogle at RW rather than RB weakens us. And I can’t see any justification for it, if we had an injury crisis on the wings then maybe, but the only winger out currently is bennett, we’ve got more than enough cover to not resort to playing players out of their natural roles.

Cocu needs to stop being so defensive and get Bogle back to RB, where he’s amongst the best outside the prem.

Fair points mate but i disagree as i don't think Bogle is anywhere near good enough defensively to be considered as one of the best outside of the prem league...his positional sense is not great but its his reactions to danger that is alarming...slow to react at wembley and generally not good enough defending our goal quite a few times this season but....do think he could get better ...You're right about him not being a RW but his pace could cause teams problems as we lack pace in our side...Wisdom is not as adventurous no but is more solid defensively so can see why hes been brought in...Bogle still has something to offer of course but is costing us goals...I even think a decent experienced keeper would help him by talking to him more....but we haven't got that 

[S8TY]

On 09/12/2019 at 09:05, Nick_Ram said:

Of course i want him to succeed. But the difference is that I'm not so desperate for him to succeed as an individual that i can actually see that there's literally no progress on the pitch that would indicate any progress. He's shown me nothing after 20 games or so that indicate he's on the right track.

Of course I'm desperate for Derby to succeed. But i won't blindly back Cocu at DCFCs expense. 

£8m spent and some terrible loan signings. Some awful team selections and worse tactical displays than a Garry Rowett team.

Of course if he keeps spending Mels money which seems likely he'll inevitably improve; so it's a win win for both of us.

Do you remember when Rowett was here ? He kept repeating how difficult is is nowadays to get a signing over the line so there is no way in 5 weeks Cocu arrived in USA (on an arranged  tour by Frank which in truth was no longer suitable ) then done the decent thing in many peoples eyes and looked at the whole squad including the youth then flew back to settle into a new country and get to know players etc...then managed to oversee the new players coming in ....in 5 weeks ?? I've always thought that all of the signings have been arranged  by others not Cocu ( of course i could be wrong but 5 weeks is not long enough but think he knew we needed new players ) .... you never know we might be really adventurous and maybe venture across the water into europe to look at players soon...I think they play football in other countries too lol ....

 

[Millenniumram]

25 minutes ago, S8TY said:

Fair points mate but i disagree as i don't think Bogle is anywhere near good enough defensively to be considered as one of the best outside of the prem league...his positional sense is not great but its his reactions to danger that is alarming...slow to react at wembley and generally not good enough defending our goal quite a few times this season but....do think he could get better ...You're right about him not being a RW but his pace could cause teams problems as we lack pace in our side...Wisdom is not as adventurous no but is more solid defensively so can see why hes been brought in...Bogle still has something to offer of course but is costing us goals...I even think a decent experienced keeper would help him by talking to him more....but we haven't got that 

Have to agree to disagree then mate. I don’t think Bogle is perfect, of course not, and there’s a lot of things he can improve on. But his defending is far from a major concern to me. He makes the odd mistake, but it’s really not all that common - I wouldnt say he’s directly cost us any goals other than forest, so to single him out as a weak link seems bizarre to me. Certainly in the main he seems well in control to me in defence so I’m not quite sure where the “alarming” reactions are to be honest. His form hasn’t been great since the international break, but it hasn’t been significantly worse than others so it seems strange to call him out as a major problem, when it’s clear (when in form) that he’s one of our best players, playing in his natural role at right back. FWIW I think Wisdom is a good player in his own right as well, albeit a different type of player, so I can understand him coming in if Bogles had a bad game, but that doesn’t make the latter a major problem in the team. The goalkeeper is a much more major concern for me, and needs sorting out as a matter of urgency in January as our current crop are out their depth in this division.

We do lack pace I agree, but you can’t solve that by just sticking anyone with pace on the wing and hope for the best. We need to use players like Whittaker more imo who are more suited to the role. 

[S8TY]

1 minute ago, Millenniumram said:

Have to agree to disagree then mate. I don’t think Bogle is perfect, of course not, and there’s a lot of things he can improve on. But his defending is far from a major concern to me. He makes the odd mistake, but it’s really not all that common - I wouldnt say he’s directly cost us any goals other than forest, so to single him out as a weak link seems bizarre to me. Certainly in the main he seems well in control to me in defence so I’m not quite sure where the “alarming” reactions are to be honest. His form hasn’t been great since the international break, but it hasn’t been significantly worse than others so it seems strange to call him out as a major problem, when it’s clear (when in form) that he’s one of our best players, playing in his natural role at right back. FWIW I think Wisdom is a good player in his own right as well, albeit a different type of player, so I can understand him coming in if Bogles had a bad game, but that doesn’t make the latter a major problem in the team. The goalkeeper is a much more major concern for me, and needs sorting out as a matter of urgency in January as our current crop are out their depth in this division.

We do lack pace I agree, but you can’t solve that by just sticking anyone with pace on the wing and hope for the best. We need to use players like Whittaker more imo who are more suited to the role. 

Yep agree to disagree mate and please don't think i'm on his case because he is a young lad and at times i beleive he needs a break....If you watch Villas goal at Wembley  he's slow to react and that is clear to see...if you watch Charltons first goal this season he was asleep and saw Davies berate him after they scored....Forest was a poor goal but last season his error lost us the game at the shitty ground as well with a bizarre bit of defending.... i want him to get better of course i do we are all fans but think he needs a bit of help at times especially from the keeper....the best defence I ever played in ( when i was no longer quick enough to play CF ) was when  the keeper would keep talking to you and a good experienced keeper would be invaluable to Bogle IMO 

Good points though Millenium 

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

Unless you have very good forwards who can change a game out of nothing or at least can be relied upon to convert the chances created you simply have to start building from the back by trying to make your team difficult to beat. From my perspective we need three new players along our back four plus a new goalkeeper. We wont get anywhere with our current defence and that's not Phillip Cocu's fault.