Overreaction

[Mostyn6]

1 hour ago, NottsRammy said:

I guess you aint heard and read the stories then .

I don't think its tripe to be getting in a football player that the young ones and even older ones are supposed to be looking up to on massive wages acting like a prat , and then asking pros on lesser money massively lesser money to bust there guts . Lets see who is right hopefully all goes well .

"Stories"?? really? 

The second paragraph would make sense if the nonsense about Rooney was true!

[RandomAccessMemory]

1 hour ago, Andicis said:

That's fair. He deserves praise for getting Knight in and around the first team.

 

But once you join Derby, what you did in the past is no longer relevant, we can only go off the present. And so far, he doesn't get any from me, purely because he hasn't proven he's better than any of our previous managers yet, regardless of his obvious pedigree. 

 

Because Lampard is the perfect example to contrast Cocu. I enjoyed what Lampard was doing with cups, and Cocu's decision was the precise opposite. I do think he's left himself open to more criticism, and lost a great deal of fan patience. If we end up losing to Brentford on Saturday, what are people going to say? We lost last night to save our players for Saturday, so that now becomes a must win in the eyes of many fans. 

Lampard wasn't perfect, I would never paint that out to be, but I admired his philosophy on cups. 

Cocu has a lot yet to prove. I'm not rushing out to praise him or push positivity, because I don't feel it, and I've yet to see any football that makes me feel positive about Cocu. When that changes, so will the tone to my posts. 

At this point I don't feel there's enough 'present' to judge on if you know what I mean? So I'm choosing to look at his track record (I won't judge his time at Fenerbahce due to the strange circumstances of it) until I see more. He's not been here for 8 weeks yet, he's moved countries, he's learning a new league, he's learning about his players, we lost some very important players from last season, he's got a big job on his hands, which is the reason I won't criticise him. That's not to say that everything is fine or will be fine, all of it is providing the rest of the season goes in the right direction, which is not a given by any means, and it might not all come together in time for us this season, but if we can get through it then hopefully we'll be stronger for it, we'll have to see if or when it all comes to fruition, but I'm sure that's the plan.

The thing with Lampard is, yes he was very experienced as a player, but he was a rookie as a manager, could that be part of the reason for the cup runs, could it have in part been a naivety in selection? I wonder if Frank would make any changes to how he played things now he's got that season under his belt? Cocu will already have knowledge from his time as a manager of how cup runs affected his squads, and they didn't play as many games per season as we do.

There's no guarantee we'll win on Saturday, but I still see it as there was no guarantee either way, we might or might not have won last night with a different selection and we might or might not win on Saturday regardless of last night, if that's not how others are seeing it that's fine, but that's my outlook to it.

I don't think we 'saved' our players for Saturday, but we didn't want to put them at any unnecessary risk, there's so many games left this season to do something positive. But if we're not there or thereabouts in January maybe we'll go all out in the FA Cup instead?

[RandomAccessMemory]

3 hours ago, Alpha said:

Well then Stoke are 2 goal keeping howlers and and one missed open goal from another 6 points 

Swansea are a missed free header from a corner from another 3 points. There was also a dodgy penalty from their perspective. 

West Brom are a badly missed 1v1 from winning on Saturday. One of the saved penalties was never a handball. No way should it have been given

That team relegated last season has lost every game except against us. A point came against another team that has lost all league games but 1.

As I said in the post you quoted I'm not down on the season at all. It's still early and every result so far can be dismissed as an early season settling in result. 

But the points you make up there are glossing over the facts in the same way I've just made counter points to gloss over the positives. 

I don't enjoy posting negatives like this. I like to think I'm much more laid back than that. My point was simply that Derby will need to produce more creative performances and/or positive results to stop each rather insignificant early season slip up becoming a bad start. 

Each bad result makes the previous one look worse. And losing in the cup to Forest makes it 2 wins from 7. It's not a crisis at all. But it's compiled on top of an unconvincing start. Not a bad one but a 'meh' one. If they don't change that soon then fans will ask questions and what can you answer them with?

But the way you have dressed it up there is half the story. That's as false as me saying if Allen scores that tap in or Stoke had defended that Waghorn opener by doing the very bare basics (like standing in front of the goal) then Stoke would have won. 

The truth is that they were fairly comfortable getting back into the game and going on to be the better side from the first 15 to the last 15. A draw was fair. They have a -8 GD from 5 games. I'm not even angry about that result. Just saying lets be fair and not dress it up like it was good. It wasn't. That's ok.

Yes there are multiple way of looking at it, maybe all of the things I pointed out could have gone for us and all of the things you pointed out could have gone against us, but my main point was about how potentially small the margins are between a loss and a draw, and a draw and a win.

It also makes it 2 losses from 7.

Not you, but some do treat every loss as though it's the worst ever, when it's not, it's just a loss, they do happen sometimes. That's the kind of thing that frustrates me. Things can be good or bad without being best thing ever, worst thing ever. I don't think Twitter helps, I think it causes people to be so reactive all of the time.

Yes results and performances could be better, however I've always felt that with the incredibly difficult start we were handed fixture wise, (and we've still got a few to go before I feel that settles down somewhat) on top of the delayed departure of Frank and arrival of Cocu, and the awkward pre season schedule, that this season was going to start quite slowly, maybe that's why I'm finding it easier to stay quite positive about it all right now?

I had low expectations for the start so it's gone about as well as I imagined, and maybe others have high expectations and it's not gone as well as they imagined, so they choose the other side of the fence, there's nothing wrong with that, but I think the forum does need the balance. (I know I'm a new member but I've actually been lurking on here since the DET forum closed down! How many years ago was that? ?)

Hopefully the return to midfield of Holmes and the return of Bogle will help the balance and creativity of the team.

[Alph]

41 minutes ago, RandomAccessMemory said:

Yes there are multiple way of looking at it, maybe all of the things I pointed out could have gone for us and all of the things you pointed out could have gone against us, but my main point was about how potentially small the margins are between a loss and a draw, and a draw and a win.

It also makes it 2 losses from 7.

Not you, but some do treat every loss as though it's the worst ever, when it's not, it's just a loss, they do happen sometimes. That's the kind of thing that frustrates me. Things can be good or bad without being best thing ever, worst thing ever. I don't think Twitter helps, I think it causes people to be so reactive all of the time.

Yes results and performances could be better, however I've always felt that with the incredibly difficult start we were handed fixture wise, (and we've still got a few to go before I feel that settles down somewhat) on top of the delayed departure of Frank and arrival of Cocu, and the awkward pre season schedule, that this season was going to start quite slowly, maybe that's why I'm finding it easier to stay quite positive about it all right now?

I had low expectations for the start so it's gone about as well as I imagined, and maybe others have high expectations and it's not gone as well as they imagined, so they choose the other side of the fence, there's nothing wrong with that, but I think the forum does need the balance. (I know I'm a new member but I've actually been lurking on here since the DET forum closed down! How many years ago was that? ?)

Hopefully the return to midfield of Holmes and the return of Bogle will help the balance and creativity of the team.

Not going to disagree with that ?

[Ellafella]

18 hours ago, Coolascustard said:

Spot on!!  The best managers will have a long term plan and accept that there’ll be a few knock backs along the way.  The strong ones hold their ground.

Sometimes you have to move slower to move quicker if that makes sense.  If we bring some of the youth through and it means losing a few more games and a mid-table finish and we start next season with Cocu in charge I believe we’ll be in a stronger position to not just get promotion but to stay there.  I’d rather do that than keep starting again every year.

Absolutely ^ that. We are in transition. That means giving youngsters games when the opportunity arises. I salute a Cocu for doing it. Believe me, losing to Florist and listening to Stuart “Physcho” {ha!} turns my stomach rancid, but it’s necessary to proceed to the longer term. 

Next year, when we start with a couple of Will Hughes-esque players that have developed over this season, and Bielik and a couple of others have seasoned, we’ll start to click and go forward again. However the quid pro quo is that:

1. We’ll see team selections that we don’t agree with

2. We’ll lose more games than we’re used to

3. Crowds will dip as the sunshine fans dwindle away.

4. We will see Clubs like Florist above us in the League. 

Some of that is not palatable but listen to Mel Morris {the darling of Talksport} on EFL revenue and Bury and Bolton’s demise... We will re-emerge stronger believe me. 

Have faith! 

[KCG]

Sigh... seems some are happy with another 10 years in transition on top of the 10 we've just been through!

I just hope Cocu has more ambition than some of our fans have. There's no way Cocu will be with us on a rebuilding project, he'll be off to a club with ambition.

[Sparkle]

The manager is using what he has and he is sorting out who he will be using regularly on a regular basis which is far from irregular 

[Spanish]

4 hours ago, KCG said:

Sigh... seems some are happy with another 10 years in transition on top of the 10 we've just been through!

I just hope Cocu has more ambition than some of our fans have. There's no way Cocu will be with us on a rebuilding project, he'll be off to a club with ambition.

So there’s no hope then, perhaps we should sack him now until we can find someone who deliver instant results?  Well of course not but I have no idea as to a solution but you must have

[Comrade 86]

17 minutes ago, Spanish said:

So there’s no hope then, perhaps we should sack him now until we can find someone who deliver instant results?  Well of course not but I have no idea as to a solution but you must have

Unlikely mate. Always willing to post about what's wrong, never willing to suggest a solution though.

[Hanny]

Mid table finish this year? Yes Please! 

I said it before- in my opinion this is the most exciting season Derby have had (will have had) in a good many years. 

Of course playoffs/promotion will always be a top spot to be...however :

Cocu seems to be wanting to build a team(long term).  Not by binning everyone off, not by emergency spending, not by charm. He just exudes the confidence/approach of a manager that wants people to ‘hold on a minute’ and let him do some work. That is so refreshing!!!

I get the sense this team is going to look so very different come the start of next season. And for the first time in awhile...The same manger, same plan, same direction will be there as well. That is so refreshing!!!

I would be ecstatic if Derby made a push for playoffs/autos. And will cheer them every match for a positive result. But oh boy- are we going to have to live through some stinkers this season. Not because we lack talent, or have an inexperienced manager or silly game plan, but because Cocu is trying to find out who actually belongs on this team going forward. That is so refreshing!!!

I believe, by the end of this season, or more likely the start of next season. We are all going to be sat back feeling a sense of strength and commitment to this team from player/staff/and supporter alike, that has been lacking in recent years for want of a quick fix. This will be a trying season. But the fruit of this labor will be born of the highest quality.

Come on you rams! 

[KCG]

16 hours ago, Spanish said:

So there’s no hope then, perhaps we should sack him now until we can find someone who deliver instant results?  Well of course not but I have no idea as to a solution but you must have

Maybe if you had read this "I just hope Cocu has more ambition than some of our fans have."

[Will the Ram]

I don’t get why people are justifying his team selection because he put out a similar team at Scunthorpe.

We didn’t play particularly well that night and were fortunate to win in 90 minutes. To put it in context Scunthorpe have just been relegated to League Two and only have 1 point from their 5 league matches. They like Huddersfield (the only other team we’ve beaten this season) are at rock bottom.

To put a similar team like that out against our local rivals and away at a team from the same division is wrong and it is disrespectful to the fans that paid to watch it (I did). You could actually say that we played a stronger team against Scunthorpe because at least we had a striker (Marriott) in the side. I feel like Cocu didn’t set out to win. Playing Holmes at RB when he was arguably our most creative player in the team was a mistake imo.

Yes Forest made changes but they still had arguably their best player (Lolley) in the team and a couple of other experienced first team players too.

I don’t get this “it’s only a cup game in August” and “we’re never going to win it anyway” stuff. Ajax were seconds away from the Champions League Final last season (upsetting the likes of Real Madrid & Juventus on the way) but they had to qualify for the tournament in August. Should they have not bothered either?

I’m not saying that the league cup is as important as the Champions League but you should aim to win every match, whatever the competition. That is what I want from my team.

 

[BBG83]

8 hours ago, Will the Ram said:

I don’t get why people are justifying his team selection because he put out a similar team at Scunthorpe.

We didn’t play particularly well that night and were fortunate to win in 90 minutes. To put it in context Scunthorpe have just been relegated to League Two and only have 1 point from their 5 league matches. They like Huddersfield (the only other team we’ve beaten this season) are at rock bottom.

To put a similar team like that out against our local rivals and away at a team from the same division is wrong and it is disrespectful to the fans that paid to watch it (I did). You could actually say that we played a stronger team against Scunthorpe because at least we had a striker (Marriott) in the side. I feel like Cocu didn’t set out to win. Playing Holmes at RB when he was arguably our most creative player in the team was a mistake imo.

Yes Forest made changes but they still had arguably their best player (Lolley) in the team and a couple of other experienced first team players too.

I don’t get this “it’s only a cup game in August” and “we’re never going to win it anyway” stuff. Ajax were seconds away from the Champions League Final last season (upsetting the likes of Real Madrid & Juventus on the way) but they had to qualify for the tournament in August. Should they have not bothered either?

I’m not saying that the league cup is as important as the Champions League but you should aim to win every match, whatever the competition. That is what I want from my team.

 

He did aim to win the match, with the team he decided to select. He's said that in his post match interview.

You've said we weren't particularly good against Scunthorpe with a similar team. There was no outpouring of despair after that game (against a team just relegated to league 2). Instead the focus was on Bucchanan's winning debut goal. That's right the focus was on one of our emerging academy players, not the opposition.

It was going to go one of two ways on Tuesday. A win or a loss. If we win the academy players get another chance to impress in the next round. If we lose they go back to 10 mins towards the end of a league game if they're lucky, or more likely back to the U23s. The latter isn't development at the deep end. Its waiting and wishing for a first team start.

He has a proven history of making money through an academy. Its quite easy to see how.

[RoyMac5]

23 minutes ago, CocuCrazyCocuMad said:

He has a proven history of making money through an academy. Its quite easy to see how.

Is it easy? Won't the players Cocu brings through and we intend to sell for gazillions need to be recruited first. Plus we'd make lots more money for our youngsters if we were promoted first.

[BBG83]

8 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Is it easy? Won't the players Cocu brings through and we intend to sell for gazillions need to be recruited first. Plus we'd make lots more money for our youngsters if we were promoted first.

But we've not been promoted for twelve years. And we're not owned by an Arab with Gazillions to freely spend to get us back there.

Instead we're owned by a businessman with Derby at heart, who's recruited a manager who will make some of our academy players recruit-able.

We've made good money on one academy graduate in the twelve years since our disastrous Premier League season. Can you really see our academy players having more of a chance to play if we're promoted? especially when we have a large majority of supporters who would rather us play our 'experienced' players in a cup game. A cup game that every single other upper tier team uses to give their squad players an opportunity.

[RoyMac5]

2 minutes ago, CocuCrazyCocuMad said:

We've made good money on one academy graduate in the twelve years since our disastrous Premier League season. Can you really see our academy players having more of a chance to play if we're promoted? 

Bogle? Hughes? Hendrick?

Those good enough will get to play. Those not good enough or not quite there will be more valuable. The real aim of the game is to get promoted.

[TommyPowell]

On 28/08/2019 at 13:11, Andicis said:

The whole post is absolutely brilliant, you nailed it Alpha. The bit I quoted is the bit I find most frustrating. The kind of patronising, condescending dismissal of anyone who wants to post anything that isn't entirely positive is counter intuitive to the whole point of the forum.  

By the same rule people who look at things more positive are patronisingly called happy clappers.

[Popular side]

Three  facts after the forest defeat.

Derby were woeful

Team selection was poor. 

The manager has talked a load of poo since the defeat 

[BBG83]

5 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Bogle? Hughes? Hendrick?

Those good enough will get to play. Those not good enough or not quite there will be more valuable. The real aim of the game is to get promoted.

Forgot about Hendrick. Was referring to Hughes. Bogle worth plenty now but hasn’t been sold.

Correct, but getting promoted within our means. That’s not saying we won’t spend in Jan but as you’ve touched on, players have to attract the attention of clubs. More likely someone will note a youth player who’s getting into the England U19 squad than a player like Martin.

Not promotes in twelve years. I’m sure we can continue to be patient and trust the manager. He’s not Paul Jewell.

[Wolfie]

2 minutes ago, Popular side said:

Three  facts after the forest defeat.

Derby were woeful

Team selection was poor. 

The manager has talked a load of poo since the defeat 

And at least 2 of those "facts" are opinions