Overreaction

[DCFC1388]

2 hours ago, Davide said:

Blooding youngsters is great. Just not all at once. And yes it's competitive. It's a CUP game. It's FOREST. Not just in my head. So if we play a stronger team they will all get injured? These are professional players. Why is Keogh not playing? Where was the creativity last night. It could have been 10-0. It was a stupid selection and we got what we deserve. This was Cocu's big mistake so far this season. He did not take this match seriously. 

Did their manager take it seriously considering he made 8 changes?

When you say just not all at once with the youngsters, there were 2? The other started in the league Sat and its his 3rd game.

Keogh has played nearly every ninute of every season, think he deserves a reat when Davies & Clarke are more than competent.

Cocu made 11 changes vs Scunthorpe & 10 last night, anyone who thought he wouldnt make that many changes then more fool you. To Cocu this game isnt as important as the league and he is right.

[cheron85]

3 minutes ago, Andicis said:

I don't agree at all. Fan reaction is hugely important to managers, how many managers lose the fans and then get to stay on? Mel Morris might be the only one who can sack Cocu, but if attendances start dropping, fans start booing etc, he won't last long at all.

That's your opinion - And I'm sure many will agree with you - I just don't

Rowett got time well past when I was fed up with watching his brand of anti-football and after 25+ years I fully considered getting rid of my season ticket if I'd had to watch that much longer - But Uncle Mel wanted to stick with him and that's all it comes down to in the end - And I respect the hell out of Mel's long term vision for the club to be sustainable and develop over time - I think we've been a little unfortunate that we've had to 'start from scratch' yet again this season but that means we need patience - And losing a relatively nothing game at the start of the season isn't any reason to throw toys around about the manager

[Richard246]

I do think some of the selections are baffling even in league games

Clarke does not look the same player

[Andicis]

1 minute ago, cheron85 said:

That's your opinion - And I'm sure many will agree with you - I just don't

Rowett got time well past when I was fed up with watching his brand of anti-football and after 25+ years I fully considered getting rid of my season ticket if I'd had to watch that much longer - But Uncle Mel wanted to stick with him and that's all it comes down to in the end - And I respect the hell out of Mel's long term vision for the club to be sustainable and develop over time - I think we've been a little unfortunate that we've had to 'start from scratch' yet again this season but that means we need patience - And losing a relatively nothing game at the start of the season isn't any reason to throw toys around about the manager

Rowett also got time well past when I was fed up, but to be fair (I don't like being fair to Rowett) he was winning games and has us in the top 6. Currently we're playing Clement esque football, without the results, and then not bothering against our local rivals. The crux of my point just comes down to that I don't find fan support trivial, I strongly believe one of the main reasons Rowett jumped ship when he could was because he could read the fan mood around him, which was very negative. I also believe that's why Lampard did so well, he had a great connection with the fans. 

I think it can be such a big asset if you can get the fans to buy into you, but for me, selections like last night do the exact opposite. Ultimately, last night won't make or break our season, but it's lost Cocu a whole lot of goodwill that he had and left him open to more criticism. 

[TheresOnlyWanChope]

14 minutes ago, DCFC1388 said:

Did their manager take it seriously considering he made 8 changes?

When you say just not all at once with the youngsters, there were 2? The other started in the league Sat and its his 3rd game.

Keogh has played nearly every ninute of every season, think he deserves a reat when Davies & Clarke are more than competent.

Cocu made 11 changes vs Scunthorpe & 10 last night, anyone who thought he wouldnt make that many changes then more fool you. To Cocu this game isnt as important as the league and he is right.

A manager shouldn’t be making eleven changes for cups. This is the issue and fans accepting it just continues to devalue these competitions. Keogh should be playing. Why was Marriott not playing again? How about all the other players who usually play. This was a reserve team, dress it up how you want. Let’s put this team out this Saturday then yeh? What are we doing? Resting a load of players? Guess what resting these players will not guarantee a win on Saturday and probably won’t even help our chances.  

[DCFC1388]

4 minutes ago, Davide said:

A manager shouldn’t be making eleven changes for cups. This is the issue and fans accepting it just continues to devalue these competitions. Keogh should be playing. Why was Marriott not playing again? How about all the other players who usually play. This was a reserve team, dress it up how you want. Let’s put this team out this Saturday then yeh? What are we doing? Resting a load of players? Guess what resting these players will not guarantee a win on Saturday and probably won’t even help our chances.  

Marriott is coming back from an injury and has been building his fitness, after starting Sat there would be no benefit in starting him again in a midweek cup game, granted if he played 20mins Sat id have expected him to start but with players returning from injury their playing time has to be managed.

Who knows if any of the other starters may have little niggling injuries, should they still be risked then or should they play 1 league game before 2 weeks off? Cocu mentioned niggling injuries & Malone being unavailable after the match. Why should Keogh be playing over Davies & Clarke in a cup fixture?

The reserve team consisted of 4 summer signings in Hamer Clarke Paterson & Shinnie, Holmes getting minutes after his injury which he himself said he had since March plus minutes for Davies after his long term injury then match minutes to Evans & Bennett who will likely be on the bench for periods but will also be needed to make impacts off the bench throughout the season.

Every manager in the early stages of the cup make wholesale changes, we did, Forest did & so did every other club last night.

[Jimbo Ram]

13 hours ago, SuperDerbySuperRams said:

I’m genuinely quite surprised by the overreaction from our fans both on social media and on here. Cocu made it perfectly clear he was going to change the side, so I’m a bit confused by the reaction of some

Forest made just as many changes, but have a far bigger squad of season pros and had more individual quality on the pitch, which showed

If Cocu’s policy is to play second string in cup competitions, whether we draw Nottingham Forest or Newport, should he neglect his policy because we’ve been matched up against our rivals? Or should we trust the man we so overwhelmingly approved of appointing?

 

Spot on, shows a lot of strength of character to stick with his process, pick the team his way and not change his ideals to placate fans.

[TheresOnlyWanChope]

4 minutes ago, DCFC1388 said:

Marriott is coming back from an injury and has been building his fitness, after starting Sat there would be no benefit in starting him again in a midweek cup game, granted if he played 20mins Sat id have expected him to start but with players returning from injury their playing time has to be managed.

Who knows if any of the other starters may have little niggling injuries, should they still be risked then or should they play 1 league game before 2 weeks off? Cocu mentioned niggling injuries & Malone being unavailable after the match. Why should Keogh be playing over Davies & Clarke in a cup fixture?

The reserve team consisted of 4 summer signings in Hamer Clarke Paterson & Shinnie, Holmes getting minutes after his injury which he himself said he had since March plus minutes for Davies after his long term injury then match minutes to Evans & Bennett who will likely be on the bench for periods but will also be needed to make impacts off the bench throughout the season.

Every manager in the early stages of the cup make wholesale changes, we did, Forest did & so did every other club last night.

Lampard didn’t last season and guess what we had cup runs. I think weakening signs for cups is really poor. What’s the point in being in the competition. Ok so with your points maybe we can play a similar lineup against Brentford this Saturday yeh? 

[BBG83]

10 minutes ago, Davide said:

A manager shouldn’t be making eleven changes for cups. This is the issue and fans accepting it just continues to devalue these competitions. Keogh should be playing. Why was Marriott not playing again? How about all the other players who usually play. This was a reserve team, dress it up how you want. Let’s put this team out this Saturday then yeh? What are we doing? Resting a load of players? Guess what resting these players will not guarantee a win on Saturday and probably won’t even help our chances.  

But playing them doesn’t guarantee we will win on Saturday either. It was 100% a reserve team. Intentionally.

There is always an opposing team in the way of a win. Nothing is guaranteed.

And I would have thought playing players out of position is done to strengthen their weaknesses, leading to them being a better player. Of course that can’t continue all season, but you can be miles behind and put a run together and be back into the mix in this league. That’s seen year after year.

Its all opinions, but you have to at least try to see what Cocu is doing, to understand what he is doing.

Seems the real legacy Frank left was a connection with the fans. Kind of papers over that we started the play-off final without a striker doesn’t it.

[DCFC1388]

Just now, Davide said:

Lampard didn’t last season and guess what we had cup runs. I think weakening signs for cups is really poor. What’s the point in being in the competition. Ok so with your points maybe we can play a similar lineup against Brentford this Saturday yeh? 

Not a similar line up no as the players who started arent in the first team currently for a reason whether fitness or performance, last night certainly didnt help change Cocu's mind in terms of performance thats for sure.

Lampard played strong teams yes but there is no doubting the number of games we ended up playing took its toll on our players. Mount got injured in a cup game vs Acc Stanley which meant we really struggled whilst he was out, I said back then he should never have started that game, same with Wilson. Key players shouldnt be risked in early cup games as an injury, like Mount, could have a big affect on the whole season not just 1 cup game.

[TheresOnlyWanChope]

1 minute ago, CocuCrazyCocuMad said:

But playing them doesn’t guarantee we will win on Saturday either. It was 100% a reserve team. Intentionally.

There is always an opposing team in the way of a win. Nothing is guaranteed.

And I would have thought playing players out of position is done to strengthen their weaknesses, leading to them being a better player. Of course that can’t continue all season, but you can be miles behind and put a run together and be back into the mix in this league. That’s seen year after year.

Its all opinions, but you have to at least try to see what Cocu is doing, to understand what he is doing.

Seems the real legacy Frank left was a connection with the fans. Kind of papers over that we started the play-off final without a striker doesn’t it.

Making eleven changes isn’t good. Teams need to gel. It just reduces our chances. I want to see Derby win a cup. I want to see Derby beat Forest. As soon as I saw that lineup you know it’s going to be a struggle. Even if we win 7-0 on Saturday, it’s still a mistake to devalue cup competitions like that especially against your biggest rivals. 

[BBG83]

6 minutes ago, Davide said:

Making eleven changes isn’t good. Teams need to gel. It just reduces our chances. I want to see Derby win a cup. I want to see Derby beat Forest. As soon as I saw that lineup you know it’s going to be a struggle. Even if we win 7-0 on Saturday, it’s still a mistake to devalue cup competitions like that especially against your biggest rivals. 

I agree, I don’t like to see the Cup devalued. Although all teams do the same. And you have to trust the manager to see the pros and cons of a cup run. For Cocu the Pro was he could use the squad/develop players and improve fitness. Guess the con would be, more fixtures to deal with with an unrealistic target of winning a cup.

Look at Norwich’s result.

[RandomAccessMemory]

10 minutes ago, Andicis said:

Rowett also got time well past when I was fed up, but to be fair (I don't like being fair to Rowett) he was winning games and has us in the top 6. Currently we're playing Clement esque football, without the results, and then not bothering against our local rivals. The crux of my point just comes down to that I don't find fan support trivial, I strongly believe one of the main reasons Rowett jumped ship when he could was because he could read the fan mood around him, which was very negative. I also believe that's why Lampard did so well, he had a great connection with the fans. 

I think it can be such a big asset if you can get the fans to buy into you, but for me, selections like last night do the exact opposite. Ultimately, last night won't make or break our season, but it's lost Cocu a whole lot of goodwill that he had and left him open to more criticism. 

Well then the problem is the fans, the manager isn't there to pander to our fanbase, he's there to make the tough decisions, to do what he thinks is right. If a manager is supposed to make every decision based on what the vocal fans think then what exactly is the point in having a manager? Just manage by committee instead.

I applaud him for making these decisions, not harangue him because I think he's got it wrong, yes when I saw the team I was surprised, but I really like that he's someone who has faith in his own convictions, someone that is not afraid to give the youth a chance and trusts them enough to put them in. Do you think it was easy for him to put Buchanan and Knight in from the start against WBA, a TV game against a team that finished higher than us last season? Do you think it was easy in the first game of the season when there's one goal in it to bring on Knight for the last few minutes instead of an experienced option?

It's easy for a manager to talk a good game about bringing the youth through, it's so much harder to actually have the guts to do it. Last night didn't go well, but the young players will be so glad that he gave them their chance in such a difficult game that they will trust that they'll be given chances again this season, I think that will stand us in better stead in the long run.

Do you think that fans of all clubs don't get frustrated with their managers decisions at times, even the big clubs with the top managers? Do you think Pep has never made a decision that fans have questioned? Klopp? Zidane? Simeone?

Do you remember the team selection at Villa away last season and how badly that game went? Not every game was rosy in the Lampard garden, people must remember that, even if they look back fondly upon last season.

4 minutes ago, Davide said:

A manager shouldn’t be making eleven changes for cups. This is the issue and fans accepting it just continues to devalue these competitions. Keogh should be playing. Why was Marriott not playing again? How about all the other players who usually play. This was a reserve team, dress it up how you want. Let’s put this team out this Saturday then yeh? What are we doing? Resting a load of players? Guess what resting these players will not guarantee a win on Saturday and probably won’t even help our chances.  

Marriott is coming back from an injury having missed a lot of pre season, he's being eased back in and started on Saturday, if we'd have started him yesterday and he'd had a reaction what would people be saying now? Or are you suggesting he should have played yesterday and not on Saturday?

Of course we're not going to put that team out on Saturday, that's the point in playing them yesterday instead. At this stage of the season I wouldn't call in resting, it's about squad management and testing some of the youngsters out in a game that has no bearing on league points.

No, it doesn't guarantee a win on Saturday, but it did guarantee that none of our most important players were injured or sent off during last nights game, which was an unimportant game for our ultimate goal of promotion, so they don't miss Saturday's much more important game for that aim.

It doesn't mean that the cup is never important, but it can't be of maximum importance every season if you're striving to get promotion, it's too many games season after season, and when you don't win the cup and you don't get promoted because you've overstretched yourselves trying to do too many things then you start it all again.

Let us focus on getting promoted, then getting stable after promotion, building a really strong squad, and then you can have a go at trying to win the cups, when you've actually got a shot at winning them.

[Andicis]

2 minutes ago, RandomAccessMemory said:

Well then the problem is the fans, the manager isn't there to pander to our fanbase, he's there to make the tough decisions, to do what he thinks is right. If a manager is supposed to make every decision based on what the vocal fans think then what exactly is the point in having a manager? Just manage by committee instead.

I applaud him for making these decisions, not harangue him because I think he's got it wrong, yes when I saw the team I was surprised, but I really like that he's someone who has faith in his own convictions, someone that is not afraid to give the youth a chance and trusts them enough to put them in. Do you think it was easy for him to put Buchanan and Knight in from the start against WBA, a TV game against a team that finished higher than us last season? Do you think it was easy in the first game of the season when there's one goal in it to bring on Knight for the last few minutes instead of an experienced option?

It's easy for a manager to talk a good game about bringing the youth through, it's so much harder to actually have the guts to do it. Last night didn't go well, but the young players will be so glad that he gave them their chance in such a difficult game that they will trust that they'll be given chances again this season, I think that will stand us in better stead in the long run.

Do you think that fans of all clubs don't get frustrated with their managers decisions at times, even the big clubs with the top managers? Do you think Pep has never made a decision that fans have questioned? Klopp? Zidane? Simeone?

Do you remember the team selection at Villa away last season and how badly that game went? Not every game was rosy in the Lampard garden, people must remember that, even if they look back fondly upon last season.

No, he's there to win us football matches, but he doesn't seem to be doing a very good job of that at the minute, does he? 

Why do you applaud him for managing us to a 3-0 defeat against Forest without a shot on target? Because he made decisions? I can make the decision to poo on the floor. I wouldn't expect praise because I shat on the floor though. Well, considering Knight had looked good in all of his apps, it couldn't have been that hard to put in Knight from the start, when we hadn't looked good against Bristol in the game previous. 

What were those young players supposed to have learned last night? They got given the run around by a more experienced team, didn't get chance to impose themselves on the ball. What he should have done is slowly introduced them into a solid core of the spine of our team, then they could have learned something instead of just giving a beating. 

I'm sure they have. They've also earned the benefit of the doubt. Cocu hasn't yet.

Nobody is saying that at all, in any sense. You've just plucked that one.

[Shang]

Remember that Cocu didn't do too well at the start of his first season in PSV but laid the foundation of what he wanted. In the second season he shifted players who despite his efforts couldn't work in his system and got several more in who were more suited and ended up winning the league 3 times within 4 years. In the first season he blooded a load of youngsters and ended up selling them on for a fortune a couple of years after.

He knows what he's doing. We're rebuilding our foundations this year. Pretty much all our goals came from Mount and Wilson, and as proven by Dowell we can't keep relying on hoping loans are good enough to push us up the league.

We're now stuck with what we've got, which is youth and a threadbare squad. My personal perspective is that this year is a free hit for Cocu. He can tinker and adjust all he wants as long as we don't get relegated, then I'll start judging him next year.

[Alph]

12 hours ago, RandomAccessMemory said:

We are two saved penalties (or one and a dodgy refereeing decision that gave WBA one) off 10 points and a place in the top 6 after 5 games, we're a save (from Waghorn's chip at Stoke) off another 2 points on top of that. Those 5 games have been against 1 team relegated last season, the 3 teams relegated the season previously (all 4 of these teams have parachute payments for this season) and one of the 2 teams who took us to the last day in the fight for the last play off spot last season, under a manager who has been building there for around 3 and a half seasons. I think people are underestimating how our season has gone so far.

Well then Stoke are 2 goal keeping howlers and and one missed open goal from another 6 points 

Swansea are a missed free header from a corner from another 3 points. There was also a dodgy penalty from their perspective. 

West Brom are a badly missed 1v1 from winning on Saturday. One of the saved penalties was never a handball. No way should it have been given

That team relegated last season has lost every game except against us. A point came against another team that has lost all league games but 1.

As I said in the post you quoted I'm not down on the season at all. It's still early and every result so far can be dismissed as an early season settling in result. 

But the points you make up there are glossing over the facts in the same way I've just made counter points to gloss over the positives. 

I don't enjoy posting negatives like this. I like to think I'm much more laid back than that. My point was simply that Derby will need to produce more creative performances and/or positive results to stop each rather insignificant early season slip up becoming a bad start. 

Each bad result makes the previous one look worse. And losing in the cup to Forest makes it 2 wins from 7. It's not a crisis at all. But it's compiled on top of an unconvincing start. Not a bad one but a 'meh' one. If they don't change that soon then fans will ask questions and what can you answer them with?

But the way you have dressed it up there is half the story. That's as false as me saying if Allen scores that tap in or Stoke had defended that Waghorn opener by doing the very bare basics (like standing in front of the goal) then Stoke would have won. 

The truth is that they were fairly comfortable getting back into the game and going on to be the better side from the first 15 to the last 15. A draw was fair. They have a -8 GD from 5 games. I'm not even angry about that result. Just saying lets be fair and not dress it up like it was good. It wasn't. That's ok.

[IlsonDerby]

I think to get a better/ stronger mixture of youth/fringe players with first teamers I'd have started with

Hamer

Holmes Keogh Davies Buchanan

                Evans 

       Shinnie/Sibley    Paterson 

Bennett   Waghorn    Mitchell-Lawson 

 

I feared the worst as soon as I saw the teams announced. 

That third goal was frustrating. So lucky and it makes it seem a much much worse result than 2-0. 

 

I will say, on 47 minutes I'm unsure why we don't get that penalty for handball? It has hit a raised arm. 

[NottsRammy]

2 hours ago, Mostyn6 said:

what the hell is this tripe? You trying to get the forum shutdown?

I guess you aint heard and read the stories then .

I don't think its tripe to be getting in a football player that the young ones and even older ones are supposed to be looking up to on massive wages acting like a prat , and then asking pros on lesser money massively lesser money to bust there guts . Lets see who is right hopefully all goes well .

[QuitYourJibbaJivin]

1 hour ago, DCFC1388 said:

Did their manager take it seriously considering he made 8 changes?

When you say just not all at once with the youngsters, there were 2? The other started in the league Sat and its his 3rd game.

Keogh has played nearly every ninute of every season, think he deserves a reat when Davies & Clarke are more than competent.

Cocu made 11 changes vs Scunthorpe & 10 last night, anyone who thought he wouldnt make that many changes then more fool you. To Cocu this game isnt as important as the league and he is right.

Wether cocu thinks the league is more important or not surely winning games is better for team bonding than losing them? It’s very early in the season and we haven’t got up and running, last night was a good job chance to make sure all the fans are on board. But by just discarding the game as just another game he’s annoyed a lot of fans so early into his tenure.

[Bald Eagle's Barmy Army]

1 hour ago, Richard246 said:

I do think some of the selections are baffling even in league games

Clarke does not look the same player

Maybe he had his hair cut