Overreaction

[Ramos]

I’m sorry... whereas I’m behind cocu all the way, he’s scored a massive own goal with his approach to tonight’s game. Whatever the context, losing to forest without putting 3 passes together just is not good enough, it’s certainly one way to tip overreactive fans over the edge.

There’s lots of reasons we lost tonight, but cocu could have saved himself a few. 

It was painful tonight standing there in almost silence as forest fans gave it.

[RandomAccessMemory]

1 hour ago, Alpha said:

If we were doing better in the league then people would shrug it off

The league performances haven't been great and now some of us will take grief off Forest fans. 

Not the end of the world but I think if you say you're pleased to be out of this tinpot cup to Forest then you're lying to yourself. 

Why would anyone not want to do well in the cups? People seem pretty excited when we get through a few rounds. 

Why would anyone be ok with losing to a team who's fans we mix with 

It means we have won just 2 of our 7 competitive games so far. Yay! 

I know people moan for nothing but some people would happily cheer if you give them something to cheer for. They are rightly pissed off. 

We are two saved penalties (or one and a dodgy refereeing decision that gave WBA one) off 10 points and a place in the top 6 after 5 games, we're a save (from Waghorn's chip at Stoke) off another 2 points on top of that. Those 5 games have been against 1 team relegated last season, the 3 teams relegated the season previously (all 4 of these teams have parachute payments for this season) and one of the 2 teams who took us to the last day in the fight for the last play off spot last season, under a manager who has been building there for around 3 and a half seasons. I think people are underestimating how our season has gone so far.

Surely it's not about being 'pleased' to be out of the cup to Forest, just not that disappointed about it instead, completely different things.

The main aim of a Championship season is to ultimately get promoted, even if it's not quite possible, however, last season I think the cup games proved to be somewhat of a distraction and/or took it out of us. We lost at Millwall after Oldham (we played at strong team at Oldham). We lost at Bolton after Man Utd. We lost 3 games in a row after the Brighton game.

Those results might have happened anyway, but we also ended up playing 8 cup games, that's potentially 6 games more than your promotion rivals if they fall at the first hurdle. If we draw teams where we are expected to field the first team, as people are suggesting we should have done against Forest, then that's a lot of extra games for the players on top of a 46 game season. We then had the 3 play off games on top of those 54 games. Before the final we had played 56 games, Villa had played 51, who knows if having played those extra 5 games made a difference to the outcome? That's not taking into account that during the season we might have picked up more points at various times with less games in the legs and been in a better position in the league.

We seemed to have a quite large and more experienced squad last season, if Wikipedia is right it looks like we used 28 players in total (for comparison, it seems Villa used 35) this season we have a smaller and/or less experienced squad, it seems sensible to not want to overstretch that squad in games that ultimately don't get you anything, it's highly unlikely that you'd actually end up winning the cup, as by the end the Premier League clubs are putting out full strength teams. It makes sense that the main focus should be on the league this season all things considered.

[IslandExile]

17 minutes ago, AdamRam said:

Don’t get the over reaction comment, we just lost to our arch rivals and taken a hammering in the process. Do we expect the comments to be, we played well and was unlucky because we weren’t.

I don’t  blame PC, I think he has been dealt a poor hand in the transfer window, imo our recruitment team got caught up in the Rooney hype and failed to provide the manager a squad capable of competing in all competitions. As we have seen with Bogle, we can’t afford to lose key players as we have to replace them with square pegs.

I thought FL had a big rebuilding job here, But PC appears to have an even bigger one, he needs to be given time to get this right, but that doesn’t mean the club or him shouldn’t take criticism along the way if they don’t get it right.

 

I think this is a very well balanced post. Probably the fairest tonight.

I'm one of those saying that some of the other posts have been overreactions so I should answer it.

I'm as disappointed as anyone (ask my family who have been avoiding me all evening) and I agree that Cocu and the club are not beyond criticism.

However, some on here have been saying Cocu doesn't know what he's doing, that he should lose his job if we don't win the next X number of matches and so on. That's an over the top reaction whichever way you look at it.

[Andicis]

2 hours ago, SuperDerbySuperRams said:

Cocu made it perfectly clear he was going to change the side, so I’m a bit confused by the reaction of some

Which is fine, tinker with it, rest a few players, but put out a strong team. He threw the youngsters that weren't ready in at the deep end, and in with a bunch of second choice players against our biggest rivals. That isn't changes, that's just stupidity.

 

2 hours ago, SuperDerbySuperRams said:

If Cocu’s policy is to play second string in cup competitions, whether we draw Nottingham Forest or Newport, should he neglect his policy because we’ve been matched up against our rivals? Or should we trust the man we so overwhelmingly approved of appointing?

Because fan support isn't a trivial matter. I can assure you, he'd find it a lot easier to ask for patience if he gets the fans on board, nights like tonight do the exact opposite and are only detrimental to everything he's trying to do. It's hardly asking a lot for our manager to respect our rivalry and put out a somewhat reasonable side.

[RandomAccessMemory]

1 hour ago, DazaDunn said:

If I was manager and I put a pineapple at left back, it would be a very unpopular decision. Would you respect me for my bravery? To me, a wrong decision is a wrong decision. The team selection was 100% wrong and he needs to know that. It infuriates me when I see a team sheet and just know it won’t work. Negative or not I’m often right. I tweeted that we’d lost at Wembley at 2:01pm and at 6-45 tonight I told my work lot we’d lose 4-0. 
 

Somethings don’t need to be tested for a 13th time to see if they work or not. 

You must've been pleased then? ?

[BondJovi]

We have a small squad. Cocu was appointed in part to promote the youth. Fans were loving his first round pick, so many academy players. Against any other team people would probably understand, but oh no it is Forest, an also ran in this league and below for a long time. I get that some fans see it as the only match that matters but does the whole plan change because of a rivalry so big our manager wasn't aware of it before joining us?

Hamer, Davies and Clarke, Evans and Shinnie. Lots of match experience there. Paterson, Bennett great chance to impress. Of course it is tough as teams need to gel but these players need to be ready. Outside of that we have the kids. Any injury crisis and we need to know the youngsters can do it. We simply don't have the quality in the backup squad.

Of course it is rubbish to lose, and no one likes losing to Forest. Me especially as I am married to one! But there is more to it. If we are getting on our managers back already then we deserve nothing. 

 

[sunnyhill60]

58 minutes ago, BondJovi said:

We have a small squad. Cocu was appointed in part to promote the youth. Fans were loving his first round pick, so many academy players. Against any other team people would probably understand, but oh no it is Forest, an also ran in this league and below for a long time. I get that some fans see it as the only match that matters but does the whole plan change because of a rivalry so big our manager wasn't aware of it before joining us?

Hamer, Davies and Clarke, Evans and Shinnie. Lots of match experience there. Paterson, Bennett great chance to impress. Of course it is tough as teams need to gel but these players need to be ready. Outside of that we have the kids. Any injury crisis and we need to know the youngsters can do it. We simply don't have the quality in the backup squad.

Of course it is rubbish to lose, and no one likes losing to Forest. Me especially as I am married to one! But there is more to it. If we are getting on our managers back already then we deserve nothing. 

 

We are not "getting on the managers back" or wanting him out. This is a football forum which inevitably involves discussion of what went wrong if we lose, including team selections.

[Jourdan]

3 hours ago, Ramos said:

I’m sorry... whereas I’m behind cocu all the way, he’s scored a massive own goal with his approach to tonight’s game. Whatever the context, losing to forest without putting 3 passes together just is not good enough, it’s certainly one way to tip overreactive fans over the edge.

There’s lots of reasons we lost tonight, but cocu could have saved himself a few. 

It was painful tonight standing there in almost silence as forest fans gave it.

How is it a massive own goal? A massive own goal would be starting Bennett up front in a play off final. A massive own goal would be benching your best player and trying to cling on to a 1-0 lead away from home in a play-off semi final. A massive own goal would be needing a point at home to qualify for the play offs on the last day and losing 3-0 and as a result, dropping from 1st in February to 8th in May.

Cocu's massive own goal? A 2nd round League Cup exit to our local rivals where we fielded youngsters and squad players. A game that will have no bearing on either side's season, a game that will live long in the memory of absolutely no-one.

If our fans are being 'tipped over the edge' in August by that, then it says more about us as a fanbase than it does about Cocu.

[wixman1884]

I think if I was a young upcoming player for Derby, I'd be less discouraged by the defeat and more discouraged by the scores of fans repulsed by my inclusion in the starting 11.

[RamNut]

The reaction is fair.

the game was lost before we even kicked off.

i can't see what this achieved apart from demonstrating that the reserves are quite poor

it wasn't a pre-season friendly, and it wasn't lower league opposition. 

We've kicked off Phillip. The season is LIVE.

[Gritstone Ram]

All will be forgotten next time we play them and win and the Brian Clough Trophy returns back to where it belongs.

[Jayram]

3 hours ago, Jourdan said:

How is it a massive own goal? A massive own goal would be starting Bennett up front in a play off final. A massive own goal would be benching your best player and trying to cling on to a 1-0 lead away from home in a play-off semi final. A massive own goal would be needing a point at home to qualify for the play offs on the last day and losing 3-0 and as a result, dropping from 1st in February to 8th in May.

Cocu's massive own goal? A 2nd round League Cup exit to our local rivals where we fielded youngsters and squad players. A game that will have no bearing on either side's season, a game that will live long in the memory of absolutely no-one.

If our fans are being 'tipped over the edge' in August by that, then it says more about us as a fanbase than it does about Cocu.

********. All games against Forest matter, and Cocu should have known that. A good performance last night win or lose would have given the team some momentum going into the Brentford game. Instead we’ve seen a team of kids, hasbeens and never will be’s battered from start to finish without creating a single chance ourselves. I understand the remit is to bring the kids through but not en masse in a match like that, not in a million years. 

No one is being ‘tipped over the edge’ but so far this season the football has been tedious, on a par with that of the Paul Clement era - alll possession with absolutely no end product. It’s boring and  uninspiring so people have a perfect right to express their opinion on that. 

[QuitYourJibbaJivin]

Just don’t see the point in making so many changes, freshen the team up, blood a few youngsters but at least give us a chance of winning. He never gave us a chance tonight, as soon as the team was read on the train to Nottingham it killed the mood, we knew it was going to be a tough night.

3500 rams travelled to that poo hole to be laughed at for 90 minutes, not good.

[Owd miner]

I would like a partial refund for sub standard goods 

[SuperDerbySuperRams]

6 hours ago, Andicis said:

Which is fine, tinker with it, rest a few players, but put out a strong team. He threw the youngsters that weren't ready in at the deep end, and in with a bunch of second choice players against our biggest rivals. That isn't changes, that's just stupidity.

 

Because fan support isn't a trivial matter. I can assure you, he'd find it a lot easier to ask for patience if he gets the fans on board, nights like tonight do the exact opposite and are only detrimental to everything he's trying to do. It's hardly asking a lot for our manager to respect our rivalry and put out a somewhat reasonable side.

How do you know they’re not ready if they’re not given a go? All I’ve seen for the last 4 months is that Sibley and Whittaker were our best players at u18 level and they deserve a chance. Buchanan did ok at the weekend and we don’t really have many options in his position 

Holmes needs minutes so no one begrudged him being selected tonight 

Barring Davies and Shinnie, who are seasoned pros, and swapping our goal keeper, everyone else in the side had been involved this season, most of which have started games. So i’d say the selection was reasonable 

 

 

[Armchair Critic]

7 hours ago, RandomAccessMemory said:

We are two saved penalties (or one and a dodgy refereeing decision that gave WBA one) off 10 points and a place in the top 6 after 5 games, we're a save (from Waghorn's chip at Stoke) off another 2 points on top of that. Those 5 games have been against 1 team relegated last season, the 3 teams relegated the season previously (all 4 of these teams have parachute payments for this season) and one of the 2 teams who took us to the last day in the fight for the last play off spot last season, under a manager who has been building there for around 3 and a half seasons. I think people are underestimating how our season has gone so far.

Surely it's not about being 'pleased' to be out of the cup to Forest, just not that disappointed about it instead, completely different things.

The main aim of a Championship season is to ultimately get promoted, even if it's not quite possible, however, last season I think the cup games proved to be somewhat of a distraction and/or took it out of us. We lost at Millwall after Oldham (we played at strong team at Oldham). We lost at Bolton after Man Utd. We lost 3 games in a row after the Brighton game.

Those results might have happened anyway, but we also ended up playing 8 cup games, that's potentially 6 games more than your promotion rivals if they fall at the first hurdle. If we draw teams where we are expected to field the first team, as people are suggesting we should have done against Forest, then that's a lot of extra games for the players on top of a 46 game season. We then had the 3 play off games on top of those 54 games. Before the final we had played 56 games, Villa had played 51, who knows if having played those extra 5 games made a difference to the outcome? That's not taking into account that during the season we might have picked up more points at various times with less games in the legs and been in a better position in the league.

We seemed to have a quite large and more experienced squad last season, if Wikipedia is right it looks like we used 28 players in total (for comparison, it seems Villa used 35) this season we have a smaller and/or less experienced squad, it seems sensible to not want to overstretch that squad in games that ultimately don't get you anything, it's highly unlikely that you'd actually end up winning the cup, as by the end the Premier League clubs are putting out full strength teams. It makes sense that the main focus should be on the league this season all things considered.

The only person in this thread that's talking sense... the rest of you have nothing but baalocks spewing out.

[sawley_ram]

Got into work this morning and already the gloating has started -- going to be a great day. Hearing the cries of "Que Sera Sera" on the radio last night is the only thing keeping me from biting.

The rivalry is a big thing for me as I live in Derbyshire but among gumps and have done all my life. The game did matter to me because of that, but ultimately the outcome doesn't really matter for Derby County.... As said already on here, Cocu did make it clear the focus is elsewhere based on the team selection. 

If it were our first team we'd put out I'd be concerned this morning, but it wasn't so I'm not.

The gloating will wear off soon anyway when they get knocked out by Burton Albion again ?

[Ramos]

3 hours ago, Jourdan said:

How is it a massive own goal? A massive own goal would be starting Bennett up front in a play off final. A massive own goal would be benching your best player and trying to cling on to a 1-0 lead away from home in a play-off semi final. A massive own goal would be needing a point at home to qualify for the play offs on the last day and losing 3-0 and as a result, dropping from 1st in February to 8th in May.

Cocu's massive own goal? A 2nd round League Cup exit to our local rivals where we fielded youngsters and squad players. A game that will have no bearing on either side's season, a game that will live long in the memory of absolutely no-one.

If our fans are being 'tipped over the edge' in August by that, then it says more about us as a fanbase than it does about Cocu.

You might disagree mate but it’s forest. Whatever the context, you’re going to put yourself on the back foot with a performance like that. Can’t deny any of your examples aren’t bigger in a wider context, like I said I’m behind cocu, but I can understand the frustration of a lot of fans. Plus a lot of emotion comes with this fixture, I imagine in the coming days and weeks a lot of fans will come to see the fixture for what it was. Cocu just hasn’t helped himself in the short term ?

[RamNut]

7 hours ago, RandomAccessMemory said:

We are two saved penalties (or one and a dodgy refereeing decision that gave WBA one) off 10 points and a place in the top 6

You count a dodgy decision against us, but ignore the even dodgier decision in our favour. Missing 50% of penalties isn't down to bad luck. 

[Topram]

9 hours ago, SuperDerbySuperRams said:

I’m genuinely quite surprised by the overreaction from our fans both on social media and on here. Cocu made it perfectly clear he was going to change the side, so I’m a bit confused by the reaction of some

Forest made just as many changes, but have a far bigger squad of season pros and had more individual quality on the pitch, which showed

If Cocu’s policy is to play second string in cup competitions, whether we draw Nottingham Forest or Newport, should he neglect his policy because we’ve been matched up against our rivals? Or should we trust the man we so overwhelmingly approved of appointing?

 

Bet you didn’t pay to go last night