Overreaction

[Alph]

@RandomAccessMemory

What you will do here is get people to say negative things to counter the positives you're saying. 

This isn't because they are negative moaners who want Cocu out. It's just because you are saying you applaud his brave selection last night and the young players will benefit from it. He shouldn't be criticised but applauded. 

So where does it stop? Do you applaud Pearson for putting Hughes and Bryson in DM? Do you applaud the bravery on loaning out our top scorer and wasting a chunk of his value because it might have paid off. 

If I came to plaster your house would you applaud my bravery if I tried to skim it all in one go and it ended up looking like Artext? 

Going to a team like Forest who also made 8 changes and played with a younger line up and not registering a shot isn't going to get applauded. 

I get you don't want people to overreact and scream and shout Cocu down. Me neither. But if it looked poo then people can call it poo. We lost 3-0. Whatever you think of the Cup I don't think we as a club plan to get knocked out of it on purpose. So Cocu got it wrong. 

 

Not addressed to just you but there are moaning Derby fans. 100% there are some whining little bitches. Craig Ramage is the leader of them. The "only Brentford" deluded parasite. 

But what is also frustrating is the people who are anti moaning. Ready to shut down any negative comment. 

"I didn't think Keogh did well on that goal" 

"Oh well!! Sell him then shall we? Burn his house down too? "

"No I was just..."

"Hang him, yeah? Why don't we just wipe out his entire family name?"

"I was just saying I thought he could..."

"Died? Packed a suitcase? You make me sick. He makes one tiny error now everything is his fault "

some of us aren't tearing Derby limb from limb. I hate people labelled as happy clappers or wrist slashers but there's no much choice right now. It's all a bit OTT and dramatic. 

I expect it on twitter. It's got bad on here lately it seems. 

[ramsbottom]

Anyone who can't see what was trying to be achieved last night, and is calling for Cocu's head wants to give their head a good f-in wobble!!!  We moan if academy products aren't given chances in the first team, and now we're moaning when they do!!  I couldn't give a rats ass whether we played For**t or not, it's a nothing cup, that we're not likely to win, and only adds more games to what is already a large fixture list.  I loved going to Old Trafford and the AMEX all guns blazing last year, but I didn't love dropping points to Bolton & Millwall in the subsequent league games cus the team was knackered...

People need to calm down, as it could get worse before it gets better...

[Andicis]

2 minutes ago, Alpha said:

But what is also frustrating is the people who are anti moaning. Ready to shut down any negative comment. 

The whole post is absolutely brilliant, you nailed it Alpha. The bit I quoted is the bit I find most frustrating. The kind of patronising, condescending dismissal of anyone who wants to post anything that isn't entirely positive is counter intuitive to the whole point of the forum.  

[Comrade 86]

17 minutes ago, Andicis said:

The whole post is absolutely brilliant, you nailed it Alpha. The bit I quoted is the bit I find most frustrating. The kind of patronising, condescending dismissal of anyone who wants to post anything that isn't entirely positive is counter intuitive to the whole point of the forum.  

As is glibly dismissing the views of those who hold differing priorities.

Reading this thread I think a few folk need to cool their jets a bit, to be honest. August is a tad early for the kind of tensions and divides we saw under Rowett! It just makes the forum a thoroughly unpleasant place to visit.

Just my opinion mind!

[John Doe]

2 hours ago, Andicis said:

Except, he kinda has to, in some respects. You can't ask for patience very easily if you don't give the fans any reason to like you. Well you can ask, but it won't be very successful. Some people on here seem to regard fan support as optional, whereas I view it as essential. I'm surprised our fans didn't learn from Lampard last year that fan connection is very important.

Just as some "fans" see supporting the team/manager as optional?

[Andicis]

1 minute ago, John Doe said:

Just as some "fans" see supporting the team/manager as optional?

I mean if that's aimed at me, you're wrong. I don't believe in blind loyalty. But I have been to every single game other than Huddersfield this season and always cheered for the team. The forum shouldn't be a place where I have to post cultist statements about how the manager can do no wrong and I can never criticise them. 

[Andicis]

1 minute ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

As is glibly dismissing the views of those who hold differing priorities.

Reading this thread I think a few folk need to cool their jets a bit, to be honest. August is a tad early for the kind of tensions and divides we saw under Rowett! It just makes the forum a thoroughly unpleasant place to visit.

Just my opinion mind!

Not sure I'm dismissing anyone's views, I've disagreed with people. The only prickly replies I've sent have been aimed towards the people who are blatantly condescending of fans who don't share their opinions.

[RandomAccessMemory]

11 minutes ago, Andicis said:

No, he's there to win us football matches, but he doesn't seem to be doing a very good job of that at the minute, does he? 

Why do you applaud him for managing us to a 3-0 defeat against Forest without a shot on target? Because he made decisions? I can make the decision to poo on the floor. I wouldn't expect praise because I shat on the floor though. Well, considering Knight had looked good in all of his apps, it couldn't have been that hard to put in Knight from the start, when we hadn't looked good against Bristol in the game previous. 

What were those young players supposed to have learned last night? They got given the run around by a more experienced team, didn't get chance to impose themselves on the ball. What he should have done is slowly introduced them into a solid core of the spine of our team, then they could have learned something instead of just giving a beating. 

I'm sure they have. They've also earned the benefit of the doubt. Cocu hasn't yet.

Nobody is saying that at all, in any sense. You've just plucked that one.

That's ultimately the aim yes, but he's here to build towards that, he's here to integrate the youth, that was one of the main reasons we appointed someone with a track record of doing just that.

I applaud him because he is doing what he's been tasked to do. Rowett talked a good game but ultimately did pretty much the exact opposite. Lampard got rightly praised for playing the youth, but of ours he only really played Bogle for any amount of time, the majority of the other youth he played ultimately wasn't ours, was also older than our youngsters that Cocu has been playing this season, and is of no benefit to us past last season.

And who gave Knight the chance to look good by putting him in for his other appearances?

They will now know that Cocu will certainly use them during this season. Both they and Cocu will now know what areas we need to focus on improving them in, or whether we might need to send a few of them out on loan before the window closes to get them some league experience.

Cocu hasn't earned the benefit of the doubt with us yet no, but he has league winning experience and has managed in the Champions League, he has earned much more than some of his predecessors during his management career so far due to his track record.

I presume you're on about my last few lines there?

My point was that you're talking about Lampard in a really positive way, how he had a great connection with the fans and you believe that's why he did so well, how selections like last night can do the exact opposite of getting the fans to buy into you, saying that Cocu lost a whole lot of goodwill and left himself open to more criticism.

I was just trying to point out that Lampard also made some very strange selections, that were roundly criticised at the time, but that ultimately you obviously still feel really positive about his time here.

Let's give Cocu the same chance to create that positivity during the rest of the season, rather than letting this one game be the albatross around his neck, there's a long way to go and we can still go on to have a fantastic season from this point, but it won't be easy if fans continue to be negative going forward because of one game.

[JfR]

2 hours ago, DCFC1388 said:

Did their manager take it seriously considering he made 8 changes?

When you say just not all at once with the youngsters, there were 2? The other started in the league Sat and its his 3rd game.

Keogh has played nearly every ninute of every season, think he deserves a reat when Davies & Clarke are more than competent.

Cocu made 11 changes vs Scunthorpe & 10 last night, anyone who thought he wouldnt make that many changes then more fool you. To Cocu this game isnt as important as the league and he is right.

I think the thing is that while Forest made 8 changes from the game against Fulham, the players that they put out were on the whole a lot closer to the first team than what we put out.

Put it this way, of the 14 players to get on the pitch for us last night, 6 players had played any amount of league football this season with a combined total of 930 league minutes. Of those players only 2 have played more than 2 matches worth of league football (Evans, Clarke) and only 1 has played more than 3 matches worth (Evans).

Forest had 10 players who have played league football with 2151 minutes between them. 6 had played more than 2 matches worth of league football (Worrall, Cash, Semedo, Lolley, Silva, Adomah) and 5 played over 3 matches worth (Worrall, Cash, Semedo, Lolley, Silva).

I'm not going to argue whether it was right or wrong to make the changes we made because it's all down to opinion, but I do think it was clear that Forest did not weaken their team to the same level as we did. The way I see it is Forest played a weakened team whilst we played what was essentially a reserve team.

[RIMBAUD]

I’m ok with the team selection. I can’t image that many sane managers deliberately make the wrong decision. 

Last year Frank received a great deal of credit early in his tenure by picking strong teams and producing positive performances in the cup. This earned him a lot of good will and respect from our fan base and elsewhere. My worry is that Cocu will not have that in the bank if things get sticky. 

We've made an ok start negotiating some tricky fixtures but I think last night was a brave call.

(More sobering was that it showed that our extended squad isn’t that strong)

[Andicis]

1 minute ago, RandomAccessMemory said:

And who gave Knight the chance to look good by putting him in for his other appearances?

That's fair. He deserves praise for getting Knight in and around the first team.

 

2 minutes ago, RandomAccessMemory said:

Cocu hasn't earned the benefit of the doubt with us yet no, but he has league winning experience and has managed in the Champions League, he has earned much more than some of his predecessors during his management career so far due to his track record.

But once you join Derby, what you did in the past is no longer relevant, we can only go off the present. And so far, he doesn't get any from me, purely because he hasn't proven he's better than any of our previous managers yet, regardless of his obvious pedigree. 

 

3 minutes ago, RandomAccessMemory said:

I presume you're on about my last few lines there?

My point was that you're talking about Lampard in a really positive way, how he had a great connection with the fans and you believe that's why he did so well, how selections like last night can do the exact opposite of getting the fans to buy into you, saying that Cocu lost a whole lot of goodwill and left himself open to more criticism.

I was just trying to point out that Lampard also made some very strange selections, that were roundly criticised at the time, but that ultimately you obviously still feel really positive about his time here.

Let's give Cocu the same chance to create that positivity during the rest of the season, rather than letting this one game be the albatross around his neck, there's a long way to go and we can still go on to have a fantastic season from this point, but it won't be easy if fans continue to be negative going forward because of one game.

Because Lampard is the perfect example to contrast Cocu. I enjoyed what Lampard was doing with cups, and Cocu's decision was the precise opposite. I do think he's left himself open to more criticism, and lost a great deal of fan patience. If we end up losing to Brentford on Saturday, what are people going to say? We lost last night to save our players for Saturday, so that now becomes a must win in the eyes of many fans. 

Lampard wasn't perfect, I would never paint that out to be, but I admired his philosophy on cups. 

Cocu has a lot yet to prove. I'm not rushing out to praise him or push positivity, because I don't feel it, and I've yet to see any football that makes me feel positive about Cocu. When that changes, so will the tone to my posts. 

[John Doe]

1 minute ago, Andicis said:

I mean if that's aimed at me, you're wrong. I don't believe in blind loyalty. But I have been to every single game other than Huddersfield this season and always cheered for the team. The forum shouldn't be a place where I have to post cultist statements about how the manager can do no wrong and I can never criticise them. 

Was a general comment about some of the things that have been written on here since the game last night.

For example, I've read comments about people at the ground, seeing the team, knowing at that point we were definitely going to lose and considering turning around and going home.  What happened to supporting the team through thick and thin?  Seems some are only willing to support the team when they see the team they want to see?

Was I surprised to see as many as 10 changes?  Yes.  However, it was clear to anyone who took the time to listen in the build up, that Cocu (and the Forest manager also) were going to be making numerous changes for this game.  Anyone going to the game expecting to see anything other than Forest Reserves vs. Derby Reserves, clearly wasn't listening.

So, whilst I can get some of the "angst", I think large parts of it are a complete overreaction.

[TommyPowell]

15 hours ago, Sexydadbod said:

Amazing how we haven’t tried the diamond formation at least once yet, bearing in mind that’s the formation we used in the famous Leeds play off match. We keep switching between this weird 3 at the back- 4-2-3-1/4-3-3 formation when it doesn’t suit the players- even the squad players. I know formations aren’t the be all and end all but it at least gets the players starting in their preferred areas of the pitch

so you are suggesting players kinda of choice the position they play in? what if nobody wanted to play left back for instance?

[Andicis]

1 minute ago, John Doe said:

Was a general comment about some of the things that have been written on here since the game last night.

For example, I've read comments about people at the ground, seeing the team, knowing at that point we were definitely going to lose and considering turning around and going home.  What happened to supporting the team through thick and thin?  Seems some are only willing to support the team when they see the team they want to see?

Was I surprised to see as many as 10 changes?  Yes.  However, it was clear to anyone who took the time to listen in the build up, that Cocu (and the Forest manager also) were going to be making numerous changes for this game.  Anyone going to the game expecting to see anything other than Forest Reserves vs. Derby Reserves, clearly wasn't listening.

So, whilst I can get some of the "angst", I think large parts of it are a complete overreaction.

So we're on to shaming supporters now? People can support however the hell they want, frankly. There is no right or wrong way, thick and thin is a nonsense notion. 

Except, Forest didn't put out a reserve team. They put out a team with a lot more minutes and first team appearances than we did. 

[Coneheadjohn]

44 minutes ago, Alpha said:

If I came to plaster your house would you applaud my bravery if I tried to skim it all in one go and it ended up looking like Artext? 

They should put this on the wall at Moor Farm.

 

[John Doe]

5 minutes ago, Andicis said:

So we're on to shaming supporters now? People can support however the hell they want, frankly. There is no right or wrong way, thick and thin is a nonsense notion. 

Fans can support the team however they wish, of course they can.  That some chose to be pragmatic about last night, in seeing what the long term benefits will be, is equally as valid as others who see the games against Forest as defining the success (or not) of a season.

As I said previously.  I can see why some are frustrated at the team put out last night, but I just take a different view.

 

5 minutes ago, Andicis said:

Except, Forest didn't put out a reserve team. They put out a team with a lot more minutes and first team appearances than we did. 

Maybe they did have more minutes, etc, but based on them making 8 changes, their First Team it was not!

 

[nottingram]

7 minutes ago, Andicis said:

That's fair. He deserves praise for getting Knight in and around the first team.

 

But once you join Derby, what you did in the past is no longer relevant, we can only go off the present. And so far, he doesn't get any from me, purely because he hasn't proven he's better than any of our previous managers yet, regardless of his obvious pedigree. 

 

Because Lampard is the perfect example to contrast Cocu. I enjoyed what Lampard was doing with cups, and Cocu's decision was the precise opposite. I do think he's left himself open to more criticism, and lost a great deal of fan patience. If we end up losing to Brentford on Saturday, what are people going to say? We lost last night to save our players for Saturday, so that now becomes a must win in the eyes of many fans. 

Lampard wasn't perfect, I would never paint that out to be, but I admired his philosophy on cups. 

Cocu has a lot yet to prove. I'm not rushing out to praise him or push positivity, because I don't feel it, and I've yet to see any football that makes me feel positive about Cocu. When that changes, so will the tone to my posts. 

Protecting the players for Saturday isn’t really the reason the team was changed last night, in my opinion. 

Integrating youth, keeping rotation players fit, experimenting with possible combinations (Holmes at RB - possibly Cocu thought he may be able to cover Bogle), getting players match fit, learning more about the players.

All other reasons for naming the team he did. 

You can say “oh well he’s putting more pressure on himself” but he isn’t. The fans might be putting more pressure on him and that is their prerogative. To me that is unbelievably short sighted. Of course, we do have a small squad and so protecting what we have maybe did come in to his thoughts but he also needs to know what they can do in the event of an injury to a first team player. The only way to do that is to give games to fringe players.

Theres also the fact that the game wouldn’t have garnered this reaction if it wasn’t Forest. Again I find that short sighted. The job Cocu has on is way bigger than a cup game against Forest and so he has to act as such. I get that that might be disappointing to the travelling fans but really and truly I would ask why, because we all knew it would be a much changed team. 

[Andicis]

3 minutes ago, nottingram said:

Protecting the players for Saturday isn’t really the reason the team was changed last night, in my opinion. 

Integrating youth, keeping rotation players fit, experimenting with possible combinations (Holmes at RB - possibly Cocu thought he may be able to cover Bogle), getting players match fit, learning more about the players.

All other reasons for naming the team he did. 

You can say “oh well he’s putting more pressure on himself” but he isn’t. The fans might be putting more pressure on him and that is their prerogative. To me that is unbelievably short sighted. Of course, we do have a small squad and so protecting what we have maybe did come in to his thoughts but he also needs to know what they can do in the event of an injury to a first team player. The only way to do that is to give games to fringe players.

Theres also the fact that the game wouldn’t have garnered this reaction if it wasn’t Forest. Again I find that short sighted. The job Cocu has on is way bigger than a cup game against Forest and so he has to act as such. I get that that might be disappointing to the travelling fans but really and truly I would ask why, because we all knew it would be a much changed team. 

You can't keep using the ''it's only because it's against Forest that it got this reaction'' when Cocu knew exactly who we were against, and should know the significance of it. How he chooses to approach that is up to him. If fans choose to criticise him for it, that's up to them. How can you be experimenting by changing that much? In science, there is always a controlled variable, because with that much different, how the duck are you going to draw conclusions? 

I don't care if you think it's short sighted. It is what it is. Whether it's right or wrong, he's put more pressure on himself. You can continue to deny it, but it doesn't make it any less true. Having been in the away crowd last night, Cocu was receiving a hell of a lot of stick, it'll only get worse if we lose at Brentford. 

[Andicis]

7 minutes ago, John Doe said:

Fans can support the team however they wish, of course they can.  That some chose to be pragmatic about last night, in seeing what the long term benefits will be, is equally as valid as others who see the games against Forest as defining the success (or not) of a season.

As I said previously.  I can see why some are frustrated at the team put out last night, but I just take a different view.

 

Maybe they did have more minutes, etc, but based on them making 8 changes, their First Team it was not!

 

Which is fair. 

It was a strong team. I never argued it was the Forest first team, but it was at least one capable of putting him a fight. The team we put out, was not.

[RandomAccessMemory]

40 minutes ago, Alpha said:

@RandomAccessMemory

What you will do here is get people to say negative things to counter the positives you're saying. 

This isn't because they are negative moaners who want Cocu out. It's just because you are saying you applaud his brave selection last night and the young players will benefit from it. He shouldn't be criticised but applauded. 

So where does it stop? Do you applaud Pearson for putting Hughes and Bryson in DM? Do you applaud the bravery on loaning out our top scorer and wasting a chunk of his value because it might have paid off. 

If I came to plaster your house would you applaud my bravery if I tried to skim it all in one go and it ended up looking like Artext? 

Going to a team like Forest who also made 8 changes and played with a younger line up and not registering a shot isn't going to get applauded. 

I get you don't want people to overreact and scream and shout Cocu down. Me neither. But if it looked poo then people can call it poo. We lost 3-0. Whatever you think of the Cup I don't think we as a club plan to get knocked out of it on purpose. So Cocu got it wrong. 

 

Not addressed to just you but there are moaning Derby fans. 100% there are some whining little bitches. Craig Ramage is the leader of them. The "only Brentford" deluded parasite. 

But what is also frustrating is the people who are anti moaning. Ready to shut down any negative comment. 

"I didn't think Keogh did well on that goal" 

"Oh well!! Sell him then shall we? Burn his house down too? "

"No I was just..."

"Hang him, yeah? Why don't we just wipe out his entire family name?"

"I was just saying I thought he could..."

"Died? Packed a suitcase? You make me sick. He makes one tiny error now everything is his fault "

some of us aren't tearing Derby limb from limb. I hate people labelled as happy clappers or wrist slashers but there's no much choice right now. It's all a bit OTT and dramatic. 

I expect it on twitter. It's got bad on here lately it seems. 

I didn't actually say that everything is positive, I've just been trying to provide some semblance of balance to the negatives, if people wish to unbalance it out again with negatives then that's up to them. Of course it's disappointing to lose a game, any game, not just a game against Forest. I do feel that if it had been against anyone other than Forest the response would be quite different, it feels like people are letting what is essentially a petty rivalry ruin their day, it's not worth it, and we still have a club to support, I'm thankful for that.

I said I applaud him for making the decision to field the youngsters, which is the main reason he was appointed, and for having the courage of his convictions to do so, as I like that characteristic, I feel like too many others say they will do something and then fail to do so. I didn't say that others should do or feel the same.

I'm not quite sure why you've gone on a rant about Nigel Pearson and plastering? ?‍♀️ But given I'm pretty sure he wasn't appointed with the remit of doing that then, no I wouldn't applaud him for it, obviously. And that very much depends whether you wanted Artex or not I guess!

It's not actually the comparative ages of the squad it's the experience. Do we have a comparison of that yet? If not I'll have a look later.

Cocu only got it wrong if his intention was solely to win the game, if his intention was to see if we have enough in reserve in a game that had no bearing on the points available in the league then the selection has served its purpose.

They have an extremely large squad in comparison to ours, it was always likely that with a lot of changes for both teams they would be stronger than us for that very reason, but that doesn't mean that the core of the team is actually stronger, it's keeping them fit that is the main concern for us this season, which again might be the reason for the selection in the first place. It could be that Cocu is only too aware that if we lose too many of them then we're looking very light, so maybe his main priority is to keep the most important members of our squad from getting injured or suspended in a competition he feels is secondary to the league.

I agree that people can be too hyperbolic on both sides, but that doesn't mean there's not a sensible conversation to be had along the way.