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The Politics Thread 2019

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21 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

What I found telling yesterday on the indicative votes was that, despite being given a free vote / not whipped - the tories largely abstained or voted no in all 4 votes. I'm not seeing that being widely reported but when we're this close to the line and trying to find a compromise to an unbearable situation, how do they get away with that?

They've voted against May's deal

They've voted to avoid no deal

And now they've not voted for any of the 4 suggested compromises

So what do they want????

I think the Conservative Party split is genuinely fascinating.

As I see it...Its a party that, in tradition, would want to stay in the EU purely for economic reasons like trade. The referendum result then completely blew this out of the water. Do MP’s vote for what constituents want or on party lines? This hasn’t been helped by Theresa May’s flip flopping on the issue from Remain to Hard Brexit, she lost all respect. It’s utter confusion, and all they want now is to try and keep power when I’m not even sure they know what that means anymore.

Basically it’s a problem of their own making which they didn’t need to do. You’d laugh if it didn’t affect near on every part of modern life.

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37 minutes ago, Wolfie said:

 

Disagree.

There isn't a politician alive who could have made a success of this. The 2 rounds of indicative votes have proved that there is no majority for anything.

Her biggest mistake was calling the 2017 election. After that, she has at least tried to be consistent and show some leadership with the backdrop of being constantly undermined by her own MPs and held to ransom by the dinosaurs in the DUP.

still think her choice of David Davis and the lack of executive oversight was a complete utter mistake.  I think with better control and early momentum this could have been done.  The reason no decision can be agreed on was that no foundation was ever built.  She is at best useless and at worst an anarchist seeking a disaster to revel in.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, StivePesley said:

What I found telling yesterday on the indicative votes was that, despite being given a free vote / not whipped - the tories largely abstained or voted no in all 4 votes. I'm not seeing that being widely reported but when we're this close to the line and trying to find a compromise to an unbearable situation, how do they get away with that?

They've voted against May's deal

They've voted to avoid no deal

And now they've not voted for any of the 4 suggested compromises

So what do they want????

Their cake, and to eat it, and get someone else to pay for it, and then claim it on their expenses, after it's moved to the Caymans...

I am amazed that there has been so little said about the leave campaign dropping their appeal.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-news-latest-vote-leave-fine-electoral-law-spending-commission-a8846816.html

An Electoral Commission spokesperson said: “We found that it broke the electoral rules set out by parliament to ensure fairness, confidence and legitimacy at an electoral event.”

“Serious offences such as these undermine public confidence in our system and it is vital, therefore, that they are properly investigated and sanctioned.

So, fundamentally, leavers (I'm not saying all) where lied to, coerced, mislead, tricked or 'bullied' into voting leave.  I know a lot of leavers, and the majority now feel lied to, a few would vote leave regardless.  I was a leaver, until I saw that bus and thought, hold on a minute, that doesn't add up.

The more I look at this, the more I think the members of ERG will benefit more than the average working class bloke.  I know a guy who worked in supply chain management, started with Nissan and was heavily involved in Toyota setting up.  He said car manufacturing would cease in 2 years without free trade, as they heavily rely on 'just in time' deliveries (it's more complex than that, that's just the headline).  They would have to move the plants to mainland Europe, and UK based suppliers would lose out as well.  Already Nissian have taken the decision to produce the next model (can't remember which) in Japan, because it can't risk it here.  Honda is shutting down, to focus on hybrids, nothing to do with brexit, hmm really?

So, the question is, if you voted brexit, we left the EU, and as a result of it your company had to lay people off.  As a brexiteer would you volunteer to be layed off?  After all you did vote for it, and the result of implimenting it.

And before anyone comes back with the statement 'we have the lowest unemployment ever', we don't.  It is counted differently.  If you are on benefits, and you get one days work, in a calender month, you are counted as employed for that month, regardless of not working the other 29.

Edited by McRamFan

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I have to cast my mind back to pre referendum time. Much of the pro leave discussions were centred around the benefits of leaving. Freedom of opportunity, forge our way ahead leaving behind a failing EU. Just in time we're headed for the good times, cheaper goods through the deals we're able to make with upcoming nations - plus the Germans won't allow the EU to lose their car sales market and will force the issue. The NHS will be saved with the money we'll save. 

Nobody is talking about this any more. 

Was the election won on a raft of lies? 

If we'd known what we know now, would leave be still the decision? Are we self harming rather than admit we were fooled? 

The reality is no deal will provide what we had. And no deal is catastrophic because we've not even tried to prepare to become self sufficient. Aside from a fringe, who seem convinced that the EU is akin to the Stasi, everyone seems resigned to it being a pooshow. So far from what was promised. 

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14 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

I have to cast my mind back to pre referendum time. Much of the pro leave discussions were centred around the benefits of leaving. Freedom of opportunity, forge our way ahead leaving behind a failing EU. Just in time we're headed for the good times, cheaper goods through the deals we're able to make with upcoming nations - plus the Germans won't allow the EU to lose their car sales market and will force the issue. The NHS will be saved with the money we'll save. 

Nobody is talking about this any more. 

Was the election won on a raft of lies? 

If we'd known what we know now, would leave be still the decision? Are we self harming rather than admit we were fooled? 

The reality is no deal will provide what we had. And no deal is catastrophic because we've not even tried to prepare to become self sufficient. Aside from a fringe, who seem convinced that the EU is akin to the Stasi, everyone seems resigned to it being a pooshow. So far from what was promised. 

and the biggest liar of them all, that cretin BoJo, will be your next PM, got to laugh or you would cry

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18 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

I have to cast my mind back to pre referendum time. Much of the pro leave discussions were centred around the benefits of leaving.

The referendum was held in a very short window where Syrian refugees were washing up on Greek beaches, Somalian migrants were hanging off the bottom on Eurostar trains, Turkey and Ukraine were lobbying to join and ISIS were at their height. At worst endemic xenophobia (even Farage's posters) and at best cautious nervousness at the fragility of international borders stoked fears to levels unprecedented since the 1970s. I don't blame anyone, even Cameron, that the referendum fell on a date where this was at a peak. I don't, for one second, say that there weren't other reasons to vote leave - some of which I had and have sympathy with - but I do say that this inflation of feeling was probably the difference between leaving and staying. We just, in my view, got very unlucky.

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11 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

If we'd known what we know now, would leave be still the decision? Are we self harming rather than admit we were fooled?

I think it would certainly still be very close. For a lot of people who voted leave it was a protest against how angry they were about the way the system seemed rigged against them. That anger has not subsided, and for some it's got even stronger due to the omnishambles of the past 2 years.

 

20 minutes ago, McRamFan said:

So, fundamentally, leavers (I'm not saying all) where lied to, coerced, mislead, tricked or 'bullied' into voting leave

However you want to view it - they were an easy target. Years of austerity, increasing wealth divide, more and more people living in relative poverty...it's easy to convince people in that position how to vote.

Note the social status and wealth of every single person at the front of the leave campaign....they have never been "on our side"

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That does it, i give up on politicians.  Gave representative democracy one more chance and voted for a new party called Flokkur Fólksins (People's Party) They got 4 parliament members in the election, but that's not how it turned out.  Two of the members were drinking and talking indiscreetly about other politicians and two members of another party who were there spoke candidly against the leader of Flokkur Fólksins.  A woman at the bar recorded the conversation with her phone, a whole three hours worth of drunken idiocy.  She took this recording to the papers, who had a field day of course.  The leader of the party took great offense at her members not standing up for her and allowing insulting complaints to be thrown her way and duly fired the two from the party.

Am so mad i could spit.  They were elected to do a job and work together to get as much done as could be and the leader cuts the party in half.  My wife and i both voted for them and they took one of our votes and threw it in the sea.  That's what democracy means to these idiots, they let it take second place to their precious feelings.  Pathetic worthless lot.  Done with em.

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1 hour ago, McRamFan said:

The more I look at this, the more I think the members of ERG will benefit more than the average working class bloke.  I know a guy who worked in supply chain management, started with Nissan and was heavily involved in Toyota setting up.  He said car manufacturing would cease in 2 years without free trade, as they heavily rely on 'just in time' deliveries (it's more complex than that, that's just the headline).  They would have to move the plants to mainland Europe, and UK based suppliers would lose out as well.  Already Nissian have taken the decision to produce the next model (can't remember which) in Japan, because it can't risk it here.  Honda is shutting down, to focus on hybrids, nothing to do with brexit, hmm really?

Not true.

Japan has secured a zero tariff deal with the EU & they've stated that they want to consolidate car production back in Japan. Sunderland has lost the Infiniti "Nissan" cars but that's because the brand has bombed in the EU. neither are anything to do with Brexit.

Honda's UK plant has been a basket case for years - running at half capacity - just not sustainable long term - especially with the new Japan-EU trade deal. It's not Brexit's fault that not enough people want to buy Hondas.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Wolfie said:

Not true

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/feb/03/nissan-confirms-new-x-trail-will-not-be-built-in-sunderland

Honda

Like Nissan, Honda stands to benefit from a new trade deal between the European Union and Japan, which will make it easier to produce cars in Japan for export to the bloc.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/18/business/brexit-honda.html

Brexit gives UK no deal, and why would they offer the UK the same or better deal than the EU? EU has a bigger market and easier access.  Oh and we have no trade negotiators, as we relied on the EU.

Edited by McRamFan

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Wolfie said:

Not true.

Japan has secured a zero tariff deal with the EU & they've stated that they want to consolidate car production back in Japan. Sunderland has lost the Infiniti "Nissan" cars but that's because the brand has bombed in the EU. neither are anything to do with Brexit.

Honda's UK plant has been a basket case for years - running at half capacity - just not sustainable long term - especially with the new Japan-EU trade deal. It's not Brexit's fault that not enough people want to buy Hondas.

The whole car industry is undergoing massive change. Diesels are now a no no. The car industry needs to change, it's a cop out blaming everything on Brexit.

Funny how my car is cheaper if I purchased it the USA than the UK and it's German. They will adapt pricing strategies pretty quickly.

You are right about Honda Swindon being a basket case. Worked with them for many years. Honda have been very clear that this is not Brexit related.

Edited by Angry Ram

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1 hour ago, McRamFan said:

And before anyone comes back with the statement 'we have the lowest unemployment ever', we don't.  It is counted differently.  If you are on benefits, and you get one days work, in a calender month, you are counted as employed for that month, regardless of not working the other 29.

Not only that, but the headline phrase now is "There are more people working now than ever before". Of course there are - people now have to work until they are 67, so that's an extra 2% of the size of the workforce. I was able to retire at 65, but I'm still technically employed, like a lot of pensioners, just to make ends meet. I do a few days consultancy per month, so I am 'in work'. The ones I feel desperately sorry for are those who still have to perform manual work, go up and down ladders etc when frailty is beginning to set in and their bodies wear out - or they have to get a job collecting trolleys at the local supermarket.

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12 minutes ago, eddie said:

 The ones I feel desperately sorry for are those who still have to perform manual work, go up and down ladders etc when frailty is beginning to set in and their bodies wear out - or they have to get a job collecting trolleys at the local supermarket.

Only if you have been a ducking idiot all your life.

The rest of us know the score. We earn more than the average bloke. We save.

From June 10th I will be a civil servant anyway. 

 

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1 minute ago, Norman said:

Only if you have been a ducking idiot all your life.

The rest of us know the score. We earn more than the average bloke. We save.

From June 10th I will be a civil servant anyway. 

 

I utterly despise self-centred "I'm all right Jack, you brought it on yourselves" politics which cares not one jot for other people - some of whom will be disabled for a start, and some of whom will never be able to "...earn more than the average bloke".

Thanks for reminding me why I had you on 'ignore' for so long. I'm out.

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2 minutes ago, eddie said:

I utterly despise self-centred "I'm all right Jack, you brought it on yourselves" politics which cares not one jot for other people - some of whom will be disabled for a start, and some of whom will never be able to "...earn more than the average bloke".

Thanks for reminding me why I had you on 'ignore' for so long. I'm out.

8 pages!😄

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, eddie said:

I utterly despise self-centred "I'm all right Jack, you brought it on yourselves" politics which cares not one jot for other people - some of whom will be disabled for a start, and some of whom will never be able to "...earn more than the average bloke".

Thanks for reminding me why I had you on 'ignore' for so long. I'm out.

We earn more than the average.

We know to save because our job isn't great.

You feel sorry for us. I'm telling you not to. If an old boy struggles, we carry him. We lift for him, we dig for him, we stay longer into the day for him. He can go out quoting, or ordering goods.

Have your rant, but do it when the rant you want to have makes sense to the reply give n.

Edited by Norman

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The problem is. You don't spend a lot of money buying a car, then do the research.

I would have been happier if we were offered 2 referendums.

1 leave v stay.

2 If leave then do the research then come back and say - There you go, what do you want now?

 

It was all doomed for a disaster.

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