The Politics Thread 2019

[TuffLuff]

20 hours ago, GenBr said:

 

The funniest thing is that for the most part the Labour MPs just completely ignore the wishes of their constituencies. Two of their traditionally strong areas are the East and West Midlands and they were the two strongest supporters of leave. 75% of Tory constituencies voted leave, but it was still over 60% for Labour as well.

Both parties seem to be a shambles atm (more so than usual). Corbyn acts like a petulant child and May refuses to see reality. Both are only trying to serve their parties interests rather than what is best for the country.

To be honest I think MPs have it tough and are damned whether they do or they don’t. Without considering party interests and voting ‘in the interests of the country’ they’ve still got to consider how your vote effects local businesses etc. Its nigh on impossible for MPs to get it right.

Dont get me wrong, they are some MP’s have behaved terribly but from what I’ve seen in debates is MPs on both sides trying to reach a consensus. It’s not their fault yet they take the brunt of the public’s frustrations. Hence we are now getting reports talking about how it’s effecting their mental health

[FindernRam]

23 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

FTFY

I see a fully paid up member of Project Fear who I also suspect has never done a big stakes negotiation. Europe is petrified of a no deal but why give us anything when they know we'll take what they offer eventually due to our lily livered politicians and civil servants.

[Mostyn6]

1 hour ago, StivePesley said:

Do you think that stuff you refer to is any more fringe activity than there has ever been - or does it just feel like more because the internet allows it to appear more widespread? That seems half the problem to me - the internet gives a much stronger foothold to extremists ( and those that seek to stoke it via their get rich "journalism")

Individually:-

France - Public rioting, wouldn't say it's extremism, mainly cos it's the French, who love a good riot, and the people involved are those I'd consider of similar class/opinion/belief to myself and people I know. There cause (what they are fighting/asking for) is a list of reasonable things IMO.

Sweden - this is perhaps a touchy subject, but the forced integration of migrants who don't want to be "integrated" as much as to take over the place has caused massive problems, similar in places in Germany.

Italy - recession protests, same as Greece.

 

Everything happening appears to be genuine reaction to government, whether extremist or not, is open to subjective interpretation.

To me, extremism is demanding something unrealistic. 

[GboroRam]

3 minutes ago, FindernRam said:

I see a fully paid up member of Project Fear who I also suspect has never done a big stakes negotiation. Europe is petrified of a no deal but why give us anything when they know we'll take what they offer eventually due to our lily livered politicians and civil servants.

This is the reason why I believe we have to go to no deal. 

It will be a disaster. 

The leavers will still blame the EU. And remainers for "not believing in Britain". 

But until the disaster is proved, a vocal minority will cry that the EUSSR have taken our liberty and our prosperity, enslaved us and forced us at gunpoint into terrible servitude. Which frankly is a ludicrous way to look at a benign, dull bureaucracy around tedious things such as freedom of movement of goods between states with common interests. 

[Gritstone Ram]

33 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

This is the reason why I believe we have to go to no deal. 

It will be a disaster. 

The leavers will still blame the EU. And remainers for "not believing in Britain". 

But until the disaster is proved, a vocal minority will cry that the EUSSR have taken our liberty and our prosperity, enslaved us and forced us at gunpoint into terrible servitude. Which frankly is a ludicrous way to look at a benign, dull bureaucracy around tedious things such as freedom of movement of goods between states with common interests. 

I think you are right what ever happens after the no deal only half can complain about it. At the moment people can just hide behind, we haven’t left properly, we needed to still be a full member. I think it should be clear cut either in or out no in between.

[Ambitious]

We can't take no deal off the table, it's literally our only bargaining tool in pushing that we get a good ok deal!

If we come out and state we have to take a deal, the EU may as well make our life miserable. I don't blame them in the slightest for the handling of the situation, like some people are, because they have to protect themselves in all of this. Ultimately, we can't be seen to be getting a good deal & the general feeling required by the EU when all this is done is that they've got one over on us. 

[FindernRam]

1 hour ago, TuffLuff said:

what I’ve seen in debates is MPs on both sides trying to reach a consensus.

I wish that were true but I feel their idea of consensus is people have to agree with them

 

31 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

Which frankly is a ludicrous way to look at a benign, dull bureaucracy around tedious things such as freedom of movement of goods between states with common interests.

It is not benign in any way, it is ruthlessly driven by fanatics wanting a United States of Europe no matter what the people want. That is why the Euro was set up. Next will be an Army,

What common interests? Germany and France are in it for themselves and screw the rest! I have Greek friends who would love to ditch the Europe stranglehold on their economy. Italy can't get out of their budget problems because the EU is in charge of their fiscal policy.

If it were a simple trading deal why do we need all this extra nonsense. All EU countries just sign up to tariff less trade. 

[Spanish]

5 minutes ago, Ambitious said:

We can't take no deal off the table, it's literally our only bargaining tool in pushing that we get a good ok deal!

If we come out and state we have to take a deal, the EU may as well make our life miserable. I don't blame them in the slightest for the handling of the situation, like some people are, because they have to protect themselves in all of this. Ultimately, we can't be seen to be getting a good deal & the general feeling required by the EU when all this is done is that they've got one over on us. 

isn't it the case the the EU believe they have negotiated a deal with May that she had no power to confirm given everybody know the Commons had  to vote on it?  Not convinced that the EU can insist on the May deal or no deal.

[GboroRam]

7 minutes ago, Ambitious said:

We can't take no deal off the table, it's literally our only bargaining tool in pushing that we get a good ok deal!

If we come out and state we have to take a deal, the EU may as well make our life miserable. I don't blame them in the slightest for the handling of the situation, like some people are, because they have to protect themselves in all of this. Ultimately, we can't be seen to be getting a good deal & the general feeling required by the EU when all this is done is that they've got one over on us. 

If no deal was a walk-away, no effect no deal, I'd agree. But we should be looking for a win-win agreement. And that's definitely not no deal. No deal is lose-lose. But the UK is the greater loser in that scenario.

Having read Stephen Covey's 7 habits of highly effective people, the "no deal" he talks about is to cancel Brexit. And he'd say that should be a legitimate option in a negotiation. Walk away with nothing changed. Why would we accept a lose-lose, or a lose-win scenario?

[McRamFan]

This is from a guy that employs 15,000 people in the UK, and generates annual revenues of £5bn.  They want to invest more, however hard brexit will stop that.  So what does that mean?  Well they are involved in almost every aspect of the infrastructure of the UK, rail, power, health etc.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/01/brexit-britain-siemens-uk-eu

 

[Spanish]

3 minutes ago, McRamFan said:

This is from a guy that employs 15,000 people in the UK, and generates annual revenues of £5bn.  They want to invest more, however hard brexit will stop that.  So what does that mean?  Well they are involved in almost every aspect of the infrastructure of the UK, rail, power, health etc.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/01/brexit-britain-siemens-uk-eu

 

somebody should to him to listen to @Moist One

'Wake up. These people will piss in your pocket and tell you it’s raining!'

unless of course he is right

[Ambitious]

2 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

If no deal was a walk-away, no effect no deal, I'd agree. But we should be looking for a win-win agreement. And that's definitely not no deal. No deal is lose-lose. But the UK is the greater loser in that scenario.

Having read Stephen Covey's 7 habits of highly effective people, the "no deal" he talks about is to cancel Brexit. And he'd say that should be a legitimate option in a negotiation. Walk away with nothing changed. Why would we accept a lose-lose, or a lose-win scenario?

Yeah, we'll make a deal - no doubt about that! 

I mean taking no deal off the table from a negotiation point of view literally takes away our only leverage. Nobody wants no deal; not us, not EU. The EU need to be seen to be getting one over us in order to stop other countries leaving, therefore it's all a big show and dance. 

We all know how this is going to play out: we'll get May's deal pushed through, with some slight amendments to the wording, then the Vote Leave and some others will stage a protest as they swear blind that it isn't what people voted for and say democracy is broken. The deal, which will be worse than staying in the EU, will be seen as nothing more than a paperwork exercise that has cost the country untold billions on both sides of the fence. The reason it will be pushed through is that we can't go back now and remain in the EU, equally the ramifications of no deal will be avoided by all cost. We are facing a conclusion that means nobody, regardless of what was voted for, wins. 

The fact that May has called in Corbyn is just laughable. Absolutely no chance that anything other than the above happens. 

[Mostyn6]

3 minutes ago, Spanish said:

somebody should to him to listen to @Moist One

'Wake up. These people will piss in your pocket and tell you it’s raining!'

unless of course he is right

he's trying to dangle a carrot over the country. Ask him why he didn't invest more in the UK in the last 30 years. Ask him why his firm merged and swallowed up UK firms and then moved the money and skilled job back to Germany and Switzerland.

It's no good for me saying that you 'might' do something you haven't ever really looked to do, just to get something you want, but with no guarantee that you will do what you're suggesting you might do if you get your own way.

His vested interested will be keeping his labour costs down, not investment and jobs.

[FindernRam]

I wonder how many of our MPs have actually read and understood the Withdrawal Agreement. I read the Commons Library briefing document and that was bad enough to wade through (and the language was not very neutral).

I wonder how many actually asked their constituents how they should vote

I see the EU as a pernicious cancer, spreading its tentacles through our country ,ever so slowly, but relentlessly, eating away at us until we are no more. We have a chance to cut it out! We may have left it too long already and the outcome is uncertain but the alternative is far worse! 

[GboroRam]

I'll try to respond as there's a lot of common views here and some of them just don't ring true to me. 

15 hours ago, sheeponacid said:

Anyway just out of interest what do you like about the EU....the subtle eroding of workers rights

I have no confidence in a Tory government to improve this either in or out of the EU. Not a relevant concern for my money.

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the talent drain from the less well of EU countries 

I don't think we're short of talented people. And we also have freedom of movement, allowing the best to come to us. If it wasn't for draining medical talent from EU countries, the NHS would be even more screwed than it is now.

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the supply of cheap labour

Again, I'm in favour of a strong minimum wage, so cheap labour is not an issue in or out of the EU for me. Still not a relevant concern.

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the austerity that runs right the way through the bloc

Again, I've no reason to blame anyone other than the Tory government for austerity. Alternatives were proposed, and the electorate preferred to continue with austerity than be bold and try something different. I don't see the EU as the cause of austerity in this country.

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the declining wildlife

EU standards aren't perfect, but without a trade deal I can envisage a drive for increased production and competitiveness with cheap imports, driving down welfare and wildlife preservation. I see leaving the EU having a negative effect here.

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the right wing governments in so many of its countries

I can't see why the EU is the cause of this. Concerning, but the left leaning parties need to step up their game. If the UK economy was being held ransom by the EU and forcing austerity on us I'd have sympathy, as I think the far right are being fuelled by domestic policies - but certainly in this country, it's not being forced on us by the EU.

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is it the way it beats citizens back into line

Again, I don't trust the Tory government with citizen rights at all, in or out of the EU. Not a concern to this discussion - it's domestic policy that will give citizens their rights.

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The way it doesn't fund the Paris agreement properly, but can fund the buffets & banquets

I pay around 40p per day to the EU. I don't see it as a bad investment. Particularly if the economy is around £800m per week worse off than it was prior to Article 50 being submitted, which is one figure being presented as the drop in buoyancy of the UK economy right now. I'm sure people will decry it as project fear, but it's a figure that's being suggested and I don't seem to hear the decriers presenting data of their own to counter it.

[Comrade 86]

17 minutes ago, FindernRam said:

I wonder how many of our MPs have actually read and understood the Withdrawal Agreement. I read the Commons Library briefing document and that was bad enough to wade through (and the language was not very neutral).

I wonder how many actually asked their constituents how they should vote

I see the EU as a pernicious cancer, spreading its tentacles through our country ,ever so slowly, but relentlessly, eating away at us until we are no more. We have a chance to cut it out! We may have left it too long already and the outcome is uncertain but the alternative is far worse! 

Jesus that's some melodramatic bolarks right there! And hilariously, you're using this kind of language and yet you're the one prattling on about 'Project Fear'. Get a grip man! 

Let's face it, you'll probably get your no-deal Brexit, it'll almost certainly bring the country to its knees, folk like you will then just blame everyone else as you always have and the rest of us will despise you with every fibre of our beings as will our children and their children too. So just sit back and enjoy the carnage you've brought about, why don't you? It's all you've got left.

[FindernRam]

13 minutes ago, 86 points said:

as will our children and their children too

Have you actually looked at youth unemployment in the rest of the EU, and most of those in work are here (stretching to make a point)!

I will say AGAIN I don't want a no deal Brexit but I want something better than we negotiated and the EU will do better if they actually believe we will leave (and screw their £39 Billion-Goverment figures). 

[Spanish]

4 minutes ago, FindernRam said:

Have you actually looked at youth unemployment in the rest of the EU, and most of those in work are here (stretching to make a point)!

I will say AGAIN I don't want a no deal Brexit but I want something better than we negotiated and the EU will do better if they actually believe we will leave (and screw their £39 Billion-Goverment figures). 

but that's it; you are stuck with May's deal or no deal, I guess very few are happy with that on the Brexit side

[FindernRam]

Since I've been on this thread a darkened windows SUV has parked up outside! Gulp!

 

[GboroRam]

Do pro Brexit people think that May's deal is worse than revoking Article 50 or not? For me it's senseless and remaining is a better option, but I never believed in the benefits in the first place.