The Politics Thread 2019

[Spanish]

12 hours ago, BaaLocks said:

 

 

We have got ourselves in a complete pickle here, one that nobody will be happy with the outcome of for a few flaming obvious reasons.

- A snap election that backfired, shot the whole of Parliament below the waterline

- The utterly ludicrous decision to align with the DUP when everyone knew, from June 24th, that the Irish border was going to be the single biggest problem

- Utterly bereft politicking from the opposition. Corbyn has been an embarrasment to his nation with the way he continues to play this for personal gain

 

 

Very close to my view, when people go on about how tough it's been on May I have to point out she is the architect of all this.  The election meaning she got into bed with the DUP which meant the backstop would never work .  Also she engaged the hapless David Davis to negotiate the deal and then apparently exerted no executive control over the process.  There is a saying; 'how do you eat an elephant?' well one piece at a time of course.  She should have insisted in staged agreements which probably would have seen 80% passed through parliament at a relatively early stage.  Not saying the difficult issues would be any easier but with support for the majority of the deal then there would have been  helped by the momentum.  The problem is that parliament are still trying to eat an whole elephant, no wonder it isn't working.

[Spanish]

8 hours ago, eddie said:

Mine will if I can't get the drugs which stop me dying of thrombosis.

Warfarin?  That's my poison and I'm pinning my hopes on USA where Coumadin is readily available.

[eddie]

2 hours ago, ossieram said:

Some of you have been saying that since the referendum.

Until the likes of Juncker can be voted out for making bad decisons, I'll always back Brexit.

Juncker can be voted out - he is an elected official, and serves a fixed term. It's the same position that was held by Roy Jenkins.

[Ghost of Clough]

14 hours ago, BurtonRam7 said:

At the start of the Brexit process, there was a chance for the political parties to work together to either make the best of an opportunity or to limit the potential damage, depending on how you view the outcome of the referendum.

What we've seen is a 3-year-long cacophony of scheming, self-interest, backstabbing, democratic betrayal and plain old incompetence. 

From the moment the result came through on 23rd June 2016, the whole country should have become Brexiteers. And that's coming from someone who was staunchly in favour of Remain. We could have worked together to protect the rights EU citizens in Britain and British citizens in the EU (both absolutely essential, as those are the people that would truly feel the downsides of Brexit if dealt with badly), negotiate as good of a trade deal as possible (an overnight No Deal departure would be a disaster) and ensure the smoothest transition possible as we left an institution that we've belonged to for nearly 50 years.

For those basing their argument for a second referendum on the fact that it has become clear how much Brexit will harm the UK, I ask: what's changed? The UK's vision for life outside of the EU is exactly the same as it was 3 years ago. If anything, the proposed deal is a somewhat of a 'soft' Brexit and far more palatable to Remainers than could have been hoped for before the referendum. What has been revealed in the past few years is not how disastrous Brexit might be, but how blindingly incompetent those who claim to represent us are.

This is where I disagree. I believe different situations need different approaches. Investments in sectors such as agriculture and manufacturing (especially automotive) should have been have been a priority in 'making the best of it'. However, there will be a need to 'limit potential damage' of our financial services. The largest proportion being 'classified as "Other Business Services" which is broken down in to: legal, accounting, advertising, research and development, architectural, engineering and other professional and technical services. "Financial" and "Travel" make up large proportions of exports too.

 

[Wolfie]

As I've said all along - I think we're heading for another referendum folks.

We go on our hols tomorrow. If we end up slipping into no deal while we're away, I might try and claim asylum in the USA.

[Ghost of Clough]

12 hours ago, BaaLocks said:

INTRO NOTE: meant with respect, not a shouty note at all.

When you say leave without a deal are you aware what that actually means? Import tax on all cars would immediately be 10%, up to 35% on all dairy products. All of this is immaterial as our 'non-tariff barriers' are completely closed without negotiation to things like food security - this isn't just a bit of fear about chlorine washed chicken, this is the fact that food simply cannot make it into the country. Have a think how many things you buy in the fresh produce section of your local supermarket - it's not about getting all war spirit and growing some spuds in the back garden, there simply will not be a way to get food on the shelves until agreements are decided. Take back control sounds great, even a strong remainer couldn't deny that, but you can only take back control of what you can control.

I'm not trying to do the 'Brexiters are stupid coz they didn't realise what they voted for'. I'm a staunch remainer but the one thing the last two has taught me is that there is something rotten with an institution that is almost impossible to leave. 

 

We have got ourselves in a complete pickle here, one that nobody will be happy with the outcome of for a few flaming obvious reasons.

- A snap election that backfired, shot the whole of Parliament below the waterline

- The utterly ludicrous decision to align with the DUP when everyone knew, from June 24th, that the Irish border was going to be the single biggest problem

- Utterly bereft politicking from the opposition. Corbyn has been an embarrasment to his nation with the way he continues to play this for personal gain

 

How do we fix it? Take the deal and work from there. Rescininding article 50 or a second referendum would be lighting the fuse on serious domestic unrest - people,, mostly obvious targets, would get hurt. The deal is better than WTO in so many ways, in that at least we can carry on trading. Then, case by case, we push back - that is the time we go to the Germans and tell them we won't pay 3.8% to import their cars. It is - to quote another poster - the option that will make 80% of the people 80% happy. Then Corbyn, May, Boris and the rest of them can let the political system unravel over the next decade - they'll get what they deserve.

Average tariff increase (not flat increase). Isn't this a big reason to invest in out own agriculture agriculture to minimise the the impact of leaving? As it happens 90% of my food is British, 5% comes from countries like South Africa or Peru, leaving about 5% from the EU

[BaaLocks]

13 minutes ago, Spanish said:

Very close to my view, when people go on about how tough it's been on May I have to point out she is the architect of all this.  The election meaning she got into bed with the DUP which meant the backstop would never work .  Also she engaged the hapless David Davis to negotiate the deal and then apparently exerted no executive control over the process.  There is a saying; 'how do you eat an elephant?' well one piece at a time of course.  She should have insisted in staged agreements which probably would have seen 80% passed through parliament at a relatively early stage.  Not saying the difficult issues would be any easier but with support for the majority of the deal then there would have been  helped by the momentum.  The problem is that parliament are still trying to eat an whole elephant, no wonder it isn't working.

You make a very good point that it should have been approved and discussed in stages. I remember hearing Ruth Davidson saying, when we were all complaining that nothing was happening and we hadn't even triggered Article 50, that it would all just be lots of posturing with madness in the last few weeks. We knew this would happen, to follow your analogy we just didn't consider the size of the elephant.

But this is all done now, May is written in history as the worst PM that ever lived and everybody knows that whatever comes now will not suit the wishes of one single person. However, division is bad and we really should not be so complacent as to think that serious civil unrest could not happen here if the political winds blow in the right direction. Bit of a trade war, shortages on certain medicines, cars going up in price by 20% overnight - all of this will fan the flames of those who want someone to blame. Forget Tommy Robinson, he doesn't have the brains or charisma to be much more than a terrace chant leader. But with the political mess ahead of us that could easily see us cleave the main two parties I have a real fear that we will leave ourselves open for extremism and brutalism like none of us have seen in our lifetime. I know it sounds alarmist but I do fear it.

[sheeponacid]

7 minutes ago, Wolfie said:

As I've said all along - I think we're heading for another referendum folks.

It was nailed on to happen the very minute the result of the last vote was known.

[BaaLocks]

6 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Average tariff increase (not flat increase). Isn't this a big reason to invest in out own agriculture agriculture to minimise the the impact of leaving? As it happens 90% of my food is British, 5% comes from countries like South Africa or Peru, leaving about 5% from the EU

Then you don't eat fresh fruit or veg, save a few potatoes and root crops. I get your point that a lot of this comes from outside the EU but we will still need a trade agreement with them also. And I'm not just talking mangoes from Pakistan or purple sprouting broccoli from Kenya.

[Angry Ram]

13 minutes ago, Wolfie said:

As I've said all along - I think we're heading for another referendum folks.

We go on our hols tomorrow. If we end up slipping into no deal while we're away, I might try and claim asylum in the USA.

Ditto, off to the USA tomorrow. I will join you in the asylum claim.

Flying from LHR?

[DarkFruitsRam7]

15 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

This is where I disagree. I believe different situations need different approaches. Investments in sectors such as agriculture and manufacturing (especially automotive) should have been have been a priority in 'making the best of it'. However, there will be a need to 'limit potential damage' of our financial services. The largest proportion being 'classified as "Other Business Services" which is broken down in to: legal, accounting, advertising, research and development, architectural, engineering and other professional and technical services. "Financial" and "Travel" make up large proportions of exports too.

 

I don’t think you’re necessarily disagreeing with my point; rather you’re looking at it from a different perspective and expanding on it.

Some will see it as an opportunity, others a damage limitation exercise. My point was based on the minds of the voters, whilst yours was focused on those who have a financial stake in the outcome.

On a slightly unrelated note, a big issue of mine is that people see things as black and white (perhaps I’m guilty of it by separating Brexit into the two aforementioned categories). There are pros and cons of every political decision. Politics is far too tribal.

[Wolfie]

4 minutes ago, Angry Ram said:

Ditto, off to the USA tomorrow. I will join you in the asylum claim.

Flying from LHR?

No mate, Manchester to Jacksonville (FL) via Atlanta.

[Spanish]

1 minute ago, BaaLocks said:

You make a very good point that it should have been approved and discussed in stages. I remember hearing Ruth Davidson saying, when we were all complaining that nothing was happening and we hadn't even triggered Article 50, that it would all just be lots of posturing with madness in the last few weeks. We knew this would happen, to follow your analogy we just didn't consider the size of the elephant.

But this is all done now, May is written in history as the worst PM that ever lived and everybody knows that whatever comes now will not suit the wishes of one single person. However, division is bad and we really should not be so complacent as to think that serious civil unrest could not happen here if the political winds blow in the right direction. Bit of a trade war, shortages on certain medicines, cars going up in price by 20% overnight - all of this will fan the flames of those who want someone to blame. Forget Tommy Robinson, he doesn't have the brains or charisma to be much more than a terrace chant leader. But with the political mess ahead of us that could easily see us cleave the main two parties I have a real fear that we will leave ourselves open for extremism and brutalism like none of us have seen in our lifetime. I know it sounds alarmist but I do fear it.

You are right the blame culture is about to go full swing.  No matter what happens next 50% of those who voted will jump on everything that turns out bad.  From my distant view, the UK appears to be full of shouty people with a tendency to move to violence as a first resort.  Maybe I am being unfair and some element of inner control occurs. 

May's the worst PM in history but we can't forget Cameron (for believing there was no risk and not putting enough effort in) BJ (for lying through his teeth) and Rees Mogg (for moving his multi million business out of the UK and now so desperate for that decision not to back fire siding with a deal that is truly awful)

[Ghost of Clough]

13 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

Then you don't eat fresh fruit or veg, save a few potatoes and root crops. I get your point that a lot of this comes from outside the EU but we will still need a trade agreement with them also. And I'm not just talking mangoes from Pakistan or purple sprouting broccoli from Kenya.

Or what I eat tends to (typically) be seasonal: beetroot, broccoli, cabbage, carrots, cucumber, lettuce, mushrooms, onions, parsnip, spinach, sweet potato and many more are easy to get this time of the year, and fairly easy throughout most of the year. I tend to struggle with finding British courgettes, peppers and tomatoes at this time of year so they're regular foreign foods ?

[BaaLocks]

12 minutes ago, Spanish said:

You are right the blame culture is about to go full swing.  No matter what happens next 50% of those who voted will jump on everything that turns out bad.  From my distant view, the UK appears to be full of shouty people with a tendency to move to violence as a first resort.  Maybe I am being unfair and some element of inner control occurs. 

May's the worst PM in history but we can't forget Cameron (for believing there was no risk and not putting enough effort in) BJ (for lying through his teeth) and Rees Mogg (for moving his multi million business out of the UK and now so desperate for that decision not to back fire siding with a deal that is truly awful)

I just fear that once these things gain momentum they become very hard to stop and the complacency of 'it will never happen here' is palpable.

You do have to give the Tories one thing in their credit - if you had told me at any point in the last twenty years that Thatcher wouldn't even make the top two of most damaging leaders in my lifetime I would have denied with more than a little enthusiasm. She was a bad 'un, utterly, and I will not for one second condone one atom of her work but these clowns make me almost nostalgic for a real evil witch of a leader with real policies and direction.

As for BJ and Rees Mogg they are charlatan chancers, if you watched the Laura Kuennsberg doc last night you would have seen just how bereft Boris is of talent and, save a few Latin quotes, intellect. He is utterly lost, JRM is just an entitled twonk who believes it is his right - he has more intelligence in one finger than Boris has in his whole body but he still isn't even fit to (I can't believe I'm going to say this) walk in Thatcher's shadow. Please God don't let either of those two knock Maggie off the podium of worst PMs - she has to at least 'medal'....

[BaaLocks]

11 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Or what I eat tends to (typically) be seasonal: beetroot, broccoli, cabbage, carrots, cucumber, lettuce, mushrooms, onions, parsnip, spinach, sweet potato and many more are easy to get this time of the year, and fairly easy throughout most of the year. I tend to struggle with finding British courgettes, peppers and tomatoes at this time of year so they're regular foreign foods ?

It's times like this the board is crying out for an aubergine emoji (and no, I'm not trying to call you a tool?)

[Stive Pesley]

What I found telling yesterday on the indicative votes was that, despite being given a free vote / not whipped - the tories largely abstained or voted no in all 4 votes. I'm not seeing that being widely reported but when we're this close to the line and trying to find a compromise to an unbearable situation, how do they get away with that?

They've voted against May's deal

They've voted to avoid no deal

And now they've not voted for any of the 4 suggested compromises

So what do they want????

[Wolfie]

30 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

 May is written in history as the worst PM that ever lived

 

16 minutes ago, Spanish said:

May's the worst PM in history

Disagree.

There isn't a politician alive who could have made a success of this. The 2 rounds of indicative votes have proved that there is no majority for anything.

Her biggest mistake was calling the 2017 election. After that, she has at least tried to be consistent and show some leadership with the backdrop of being constantly undermined by her own MPs and held to ransom by the dinosaurs in the DUP.

[eddie]

2 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

What I found telling yesterday on the indicative votes was that, despite being given a free vote / not whipped - the tories largely abstained or voted no in all 4 votes. I'm not seeing that being widely reported but when we're this close to the line and trying to find a compromise to an unbearable situation, how do they get away with that?

They've voted against May's deal

They've voted to avoid no deal

And now they've not voted for any of the 4 suggested compromises

So what do they want????

A pay rise.

[BaaLocks]

16 minutes ago, Wolfie said:

Disagree.

There isn't a politician alive who could have made a success of this. The 2 rounds of indicative votes have proved that there is no majority for anything.

Her biggest mistake was calling the 2017 election. After that, she has at least tried to be consistent and show some leadership with the backdrop of being constantly undermined by her own MPs and held to ransom by the dinosaurs in the DUP.

Calling the 2017 election was not a mistake, everyone at the time thought it was actually a savvy piece of maneouvering. It was the way that she reacted to the result that was the mistake. And the way that she has dealt with the negotiations throughout has been nothing short of abysmal - she should have appointed key negotiators from business, the military, whoever. Asking David Davies to lead this was like asking Kelle Roos to play centre half. From there her increasing intransigence and utter inabilty to listen, understand and compromise has widened and deepened the rifts rather than brought people together. Statements like 'Brexit means Brexit' simply served to pit one person against another. But she is history now, as I said before, we need to move forward.

And that is what I fear, when I look at who can step forward and bring people together I see not one person who could do that job - even stepping outside party lines. Ukraine is on the verge of electing a comedian, Italy tried that - maybe Frankie Boyle is the answer?