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The Politics Thread 2019

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1 hour ago, Wolfie said:

Or 10, if you're the DUP

Or 40 ish if you're the Lib Dems.

"Power" doesn't have to mean a majority to make a difference.

 

1 hour ago, Moist One said:

true, but you're then in bed with those that can ruin you. Look at the Lib Dems now, after being in cahoots last time. They will never recover from being Cameron's nodding dogs!

ERG, Momentum, MPs don't need to belong to a minority party to have power over a larger party. Just need the right time and circumstances.

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Think Brexit has done wonders for the progress of this country. The only non Brexit thing has been to ban low down letter boxes. In meantime the country has just got on with creating jobs and growth without interference. We don't need MPs screwing it all up with their collective need to justify their existence..

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1 hour ago, Moist One said:

true, but you're then in bed with those that can ruin you. Look at the Lib Dems now, after being in cahoots last time. They will never recover from being Cameron's nodding dogs!

Maybe not but I think that's a symptom of UK voters not being used to coalition governments and the compromises that come with them. The Lib Dems got anihilated for policy decisions they realistically had no mandate to either implement or rule out.

I don't really understand why they are doing so crap in the polls, still. You'd think being the only moderate Remain party would guarantee them 30% poll ratings - when they're achieving less than 10%. They're also now going to have to compete with Change UK.

Vince Cable has been an awful leader for them.

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10 minutes ago, Wolfie said:

I don't really understand why they are doing so crap in the polls, still. You'd think being the only moderate Remain party would guarantee them 30% poll ratings - when they're achieving less than 10%.

Which is the main reason I don't really get why so many Celebs out there on Twitter constantly berate Labour for not backing remain. Backing a hard remain is clearly not going to win a general election at the moment

I'd ask if anyone has any predictions for where we'll end up Brexit wise - but I suspect we're all just as in the dark 😞

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44 minutes ago, Wolfie said:

Maybe not but I think that's a symptom of UK voters not being used to coalition governments and the compromises that come with them. The Lib Dems got anihilated for policy decisions they realistically had no mandate to either implement or rule out.

I don't really understand why they are doing so crap in the polls, still. You'd think being the only moderate Remain party would guarantee them 30% poll ratings - when they're achieving less than 10%. They're also now going to have to compete with Change UK.

Vince Cable has been an awful leader for them.

The English are apparently famous for the art of the compromise, but actually these days no-one wants to compromise, we've all got a entrenched with our views "The only right way is my way!"

We also don't want to waste a vote so really the only valid vote in the past was for the big 2. 

This time many people feel any vote is a waste so I feel turnout will be very low and will let extremists in, left and right, we will be more divided than ever. Democracy as we know it is dead so we  are now a very good fit with the EU again!

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Posted (edited)

At the start of the Brexit process, there was a chance for the political parties to work together to either make the best of an opportunity or to limit the potential damage, depending on how you view the outcome of the referendum.

What we've seen is a 3-year-long cacophony of scheming, self-interest, backstabbing, democratic betrayal and plain old incompetence. 

From the moment the result came through on 23rd June 2016, the whole country should have become Brexiteers. And that's coming from someone who was staunchly in favour of Remain. We could have worked together to protect the rights EU citizens in Britain and British citizens in the EU (both absolutely essential, as those are the people that would truly feel the downsides of Brexit if dealt with badly), negotiate as good of a trade deal as possible (an overnight No Deal departure would be a disaster) and ensure the smoothest transition possible as we left an institution that we've belonged to for nearly 50 years.

For those basing their argument for a second referendum on the fact that it has become clear how much Brexit will harm the UK, I ask: what's changed? The UK's vision for life outside of the EU is exactly the same as it was 3 years ago. If anything, the proposed deal is a somewhat of a 'soft' Brexit and far more palatable to Remainers than could have been hoped for before the referendum. What has been revealed in the past few years is not how disastrous Brexit might be, but how blindingly incompetent those who claim to represent us are.

Edited by BurtonRam7

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1 hour ago, BurtonRam7 said:

From the moment the result came through on 23rd June 2016, the whole country should have become Brexiteers. And that's coming from someone who was staunchly in favour of Remain. We could have worked together to protect the rights EU citizens in Britain and British citizens in the EU (both absolutely essential, as those are the people that would truly feel the downsides of Brexit if dealt with badly), negotiate as good of a trade deal as possible (an overnight No Deal departure would be a disaster) and ensure the smoothest transition possible as we left an institution that we've belonged to for nearly 50 years.

So do you think a softer Brexit with a customs union while we then sort our future in our own time is the only way forward? I'm starting to come to that conclusion.

Trouble is that means still paying into the EU and still accepting freedom of movement - which I'm sure *some* leave voters will still see as a betrayal - but that's how  compromises work innit?

 

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16 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

So do you think a softer Brexit with a customs union while we then sort our future in our own time is the only way forward? I'm starting to come to that conclusion.

Trouble is that means still paying into the EU and still accepting freedom of movement - which I'm sure *some* leave voters will still see as a betrayal - but that's how  compromises work innit?

About right. I’m not fully decided on the customs union issue, as there are certainly arguments to be made in favour of being able to trade more freely with nations outside of the union, particularly the developing ones.

Funnily enough, immigration seems to be way down on the agenda at the minute. Whether or not that will change if freedom of movement continues, I don’t know.

No-one will be truly happy whatever the outcome.

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17 hours ago, Ambitious said:

For me, we've made our bed and we should leave without a deal. Any deal we make is going to be worst than the one we have already, which obviously goes without saying, so the only real chance we have of making this work is without a deal and a miracle that we can make something of it. 

INTRO NOTE: meant with respect, not a shouty note at all.

When you say leave without a deal are you aware what that actually means? Import tax on all cars would immediately be 10%, up to 35% on all dairy products. All of this is immaterial as our 'non-tariff barriers' are completely closed without negotiation to things like food security - this isn't just a bit of fear about chlorine washed chicken, this is the fact that food simply cannot make it into the country. Have a think how many things you buy in the fresh produce section of your local supermarket - it's not about getting all war spirit and growing some spuds in the back garden, there simply will not be a way to get food on the shelves until agreements are decided. Take back control sounds great, even a strong remainer couldn't deny that, but you can only take back control of what you can control.

I'm not trying to do the 'Brexiters are stupid coz they didn't realise what they voted for'. I'm a staunch remainer but the one thing the last two has taught me is that there is something rotten with an institution that is almost impossible to leave. 

 

We have got ourselves in a complete pickle here, one that nobody will be happy with the outcome of for a few flaming obvious reasons.

- A snap election that backfired, shot the whole of Parliament below the waterline

- The utterly ludicrous decision to align with the DUP when everyone knew, from June 24th, that the Irish border was going to be the single biggest problem

- Utterly bereft politicking from the opposition. Corbyn has been an embarrasment to his nation with the way he continues to play this for personal gain

 

How do we fix it? Take the deal and work from there. Rescininding article 50 or a second referendum would be lighting the fuse on serious domestic unrest - people,, mostly obvious targets, would get hurt. The deal is better than WTO in so many ways, in that at least we can carry on trading. Then, case by case, we push back - that is the time we go to the Germans and tell them we won't pay 3.8% to import their cars. It is - to quote another poster - the option that will make 80% of the people 80% happy. Then Corbyn, May, Boris and the rest of them can let the political system unravel over the next decade - they'll get what they deserve.

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Doesn’t really matter what side of the fence you are on now because what has become glaringly right out in the open now is that votes and voter matters not a jot to the modern day so called polititions/ future I’m a celebrity get me out of here contestants ,,, 

now the name of the politician who started the little break away group of mp party defectors escapes me just now but he encapsulates the whole sordid self interested bunch that fill our Houses of Parliament , I laughed as he stated that his main motivation was that he believes politics is broken ,, well he/ they are the reason it’s broken , he is staunchly remain so will not accept and carry out the democratic majority leave vote and also claims he does not have any duty/ moral need to call a bye election as he was voted in as himself as a candidate ,WRONG he stood and was voted in on a party political platform and now no longer chooses to be a member of that party , if he is now an independent then call a bye election and stand as one and give voters the right to choose ,,, sad sad sad sad imitations of politician s these people are ,

it does make you wonder whether we are better served by euro government than these charlatan s

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Posted (edited)

I've decided to let you people sort it out. I'll probably be dead in 15 years, which is likely a year or two before Meaningful Vote 3071 comes before parliament.

 

Edit: I suspended my Facebook account last week. Now I'm no longer getting about 30 messages a day from Derby fans who believed that "Lisbon Treaty" guff that's been doing the rounds.

Edited by eddie

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3 hours ago, BurtonRam7 said:

At the start of the Brexit process, there was a chance for the political parties to work together to either make the best of an opportunity or to limit the potential damage, depending on how you view the outcome of the referendum.

What we've seen is a 3-year-long cacophony of scheming, self-interest, backstabbing, democratic betrayal and plain old incompetence. 

From the moment the result came through on 23rd June 2016, the whole country should have become Brexiteers. And that's coming from someone who was staunchly in favour of Remain. We could have worked together to protect the rights EU citizens in Britain and British citizens in the EU (both absolutely essential, as those are the people that would truly feel the downsides of Brexit if dealt with badly), negotiate as good of a trade deal as possible (an overnight No Deal departure would be a disaster) and ensure the smoothest transition possible as we left an institution that we've belonged to for nearly 50 years.

For those basing their argument for a second referendum on the fact that it has become clear how much Brexit will harm the UK, I ask: what's changed? The UK's vision for life outside of the EU is exactly the same as it was 3 years ago. If anything, the proposed deal is a somewhat of a 'soft' Brexit and far more palatable to Remainers than could have been hoped for before the referendum. What has been revealed in the past few years is not how disastrous Brexit might be, but how blindingly incompetent those who claim to represent us are.

Even with cross party cooperation I doubt any good agreement could be arrived at, due to all the different factions with each party. What will a good agreement look like anyway?

Could we end up with a hotchpotch of a compromise that most MPs vote for but aren't really happy with and in the short term isn't a good deal for the majority of the country. How long will it be before any agreement delivers all those wonderful deals we were promised? and we obtain that utopian country, that leave supporters imagined they would live in when they voted to leave the EU, five, ten, twenty years,or more?

But what ever sort of agreement parliament can eventually vote for. They still have to get the EU and it's 27 member states to accept it. Which could be a major problem as they have stated the agreement already negotiated with the UK is final and none renegotiable.

So if the EU won't renegotiate the only options we appear to have is Mays brexit, a hard brexit or if another referendum is held the  possibility of a no brexit.

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Our entire political system is oriented around the preservation of each political party, not the country.

Theresa May has devised her entire Brexit policy around drawing silly red lines that were really designed just to keep her party together. 

We should have been having the rational debate about what Brexit could look like 2 years ago.....not now!

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A colleague at work found themselves at Westminster tube station last Friday just after the vote result was announced so rather rashly thought he'd pop along to see what the reaction was.

He told me that as an ex follower of the England football team in the 90s he'd wondered what had happened to all the less desirable elements and hed rediscovered them.

Droves of ageing pot-bellied white males, throwing beer and anything else they could find around whilst shrieking obscenities and generally looking quite menacing.

And these people believe that the majority of us want to pull up the drawbridge so we can be incarcerated on our island with them....??? Yeah, ok....😂

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1 minute ago, HantsRam said:

A colleague at work found themselves at Westminster tube station last Friday just after the vote result was announced so rather rashly thought he'd pop along to see what the reaction was.

He told me that as an ex follower of the England football team in the 90s he'd wondered what had happened to all the less desirable elements and hed rediscovered them.

Droves of ageing pot-bellied white males, throwing beer and anything else they could find around whilst shrieking obscenities and generally looking quite menacing.

And these people believe that the majority of us want to pull up the drawbridge so we can be incarcerated on our island with them....??? Yeah, ok....😂

I'm impressed he managed to get access to the chamber so easily, what did he make of the protester's outside?

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Just now, reveldevil said:

I'm impressed he managed to get access to the chamber so easily, what did he make of the protester's outside?

Stranger's Gallery lets all sorts in. The bare cheek of them!

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