The Politics Thread 2019

[Stive Pesley]

1 hour ago, FindernRam said:

I wonder how many actually asked their constituents how they should vote

What would you expect the outcome to be of such a consultation? On any issue it's simply impossible for an MP to represent ALL his constituents. We can blame MPs for a lot of things, but I think it's disingenuous to expect them to consult all their constituents on every indicative vote as if that would solve something

1 hour ago, FindernRam said:

I see the EU as a pernicious cancer, spreading its tentacles through our country ,ever so slowly, but relentlessly, eating away at us until we are no more

If you want to use such emotive language, I think I'm within my rights to ask for some real life examples of where this scary cancerous octopus is negatively affecting your life. Please show your working

 

[cannable]

17 hours ago, sheeponacid said:

Anyway just out of interest what do you like about the EU....the subtle eroding of workers rights

When I was studying it there were hundreds of cases in which cases taken to the ECJ protected worker’s rights… 

[ossieram]

1 hour ago, GboroRam said:

Do pro Brexit people think that May's deal is worse than revoking Article 50 or not?

I don't find either acceptable.

[GboroRam]

16 minutes ago, ossieram said:

I don't find either acceptable.

Which is least objectionable? Or rather, which is most objectionable? 

What vision would you support? Canada, Norway, Switzerland... Something else? 

[Coneheadjohn]

Can’t even pass a vote on wether to have a vote.

Thank the lord that I have no time to care about it.

[Uptherams]

 

[TuffLuff]

25 minutes ago, Uptherams said:

 

Convenient to miss out Wales, NI and Scotland?

All polls are bringing up all different conclusions. John Curtice reckons it would go 55% towards Remain now, so the only conclusion we get is that the country is pretty divided on the issue?

Also what type of question is this? If you take away any form of deal then you are asking people to vote for the extremes. Isn’t this just what we’ve known all along? That there percentage of people wanting to leave/remain is pretty close. Yougov have been pretty unreliable, like the rest of them have.

[Uptherams]

1 minute ago, TuffLuff said:

Convenient to miss out Wales, NI and Scotland?

All polls are bringing up all different conclusions. John Curtice reckons it would go 55% towards Remain now, so the only conclusion we get is that the country is pretty divided on the issue?

Also what type of question is this? If you take away any form of deal then you are asking people to vote for the extremes. Isn’t this just what we’ve known all along? That there percentage of people wanting to leave/remain is pretty close. Yougov have been pretty unreliable, like the rest of them have.

Convenient of who? The point of that tweet is to highlight the London bubble versus the rest of England. 

[LB_DCFC]

37 minutes ago, Uptherams said:

 

Very Important to note that Scotland is 53% Remain and 30% No Deal. (According to the same data source)

Especially with the enormous problems Brexit poses regarding Northern Ireland, if we do leave, could we see the break up of the Union? It definitely makes it significantly more likely.

Also, that amount of people believe that No Deal is the best option? That's rather concerning, though I doubt it'll happen (And YouGov is hardly the most reliable I might add). Only the ERG really believe it's even remotely a good Idea in parliament, but it gets more and more likely the closer we get to the deadline.

It's incredible how divided our country is and will be for the next decade at least I suspect. And to think this is only the beginning!

[Uptherams]

3 minutes ago, LB_DCFC said:

Very Important to note that Scotland is 53% Remain and 30% No Deal. (According to the same data source)

Especially with the enormous problems Brexit poses regarding Northern Ireland, if we do leave, could we see the break up of the Union? It definitely makes it significantly more likely.

Also, that amount of people believe that No Deal is the best option? That's rather concerning, though I doubt it'll happen (And YouGov is hardly the most reliable I might add). Only the ERG really believe it's even remotely a good Idea in parliament, but it gets more and more likely the closer we get to the deadline.

It's incredible how divided our country is and will be for the next decade at least I suspect. And to think this is only the beginning!

As per the election, only about a quarter of people who voted to remain are fanatics. Most people, despite how they voted, would vote now or in the future, will get on with their lives. The country isn't as 'divided' as the political elite, MSM and remain fanatics like to think or have people believe. 

[LB_DCFC]

1 minute ago, Uptherams said:

As per the election, only about a quarter of people who voted to remain are fanatics. Most people, despite how they voted, would vote now or in the future, will get on with their lives. The country isn't as 'divided' as the political elite, MSM and remain fanatics like to think or have people believe. 

I suspect the level of division is entirely reliant on what deal, or lack of, happens. Anything other than No Deal and I can see a significant amount of Brexit voters proclaiming that is 'isn't what they voted for' etc, and if No deal happens the same from Remain voters. 

A massive problem was that the referendum was a binary 'Leave' vs 'Remain' vote, whereas in reality Leave has so many options that this was always going to happen, especially with the differences of opinion in Parliament. May's deal was a 'hard brexit', not hard enough for the ERG, too hard for anyone other than Conservatives. No Deal is widely denounced, customs union voted down, common market voted down, revocation voted down. What do you do now? 

All because Cameron was worried that the Tories would lose voters to UKIP. In the end it could end up destroying their party.

[Rev]

I can't remember a single thing about the situation in Northern Ireland being mentioned in any memorable way during the referendum, yet ever since it's been an insurmountable problem.

Was the NI issue swept under the carpet, or do people in the rest of the UK not really care?

 

[Uptherams]

1 minute ago, LB_DCFC said:

I suspect the level of division is entirely reliant on what deal, or lack of, happens. Anything other than No Deal and I can see a significant amount of Brexit voters proclaiming that is 'isn't what they voted for' etc, and if No deal happens the same from Remain voters. 

A massive problem was that the referendum was a binary 'Leave' vs 'Remain' vote, whereas in reality Leave has so many options that this was always going to happen, especially with the differences of opinion in Parliament. May's deal was a 'hard brexit', not hard enough for the ERG, too hard for anyone other than Conservatives. No Deal is widely denounced, customs union voted down, common market voted down, revocation voted down. What do you do now? 

All because Cameron was worried that the Tories would lose voters to UKIP. In the end it could end up destroying their party.

Sorry, remain had so many options too. Let's not pretend the status quo was the next 40+ years. If we had a referendum with multiple choices for leaving and remain, no deal would come out on top. 

[LB_DCFC]

Just now, Uptherams said:

Sorry, remain had so many options too. Let's not pretend the status quo was the next 40+ years. If we had a referendum with multiple choices for leaving and remain, no deal would come out on top. 

I'm not disputing that at all, but I don't think it Would have caused as much division as this has. Guess we'll never know, though.

[TuffLuff]

15 minutes ago, Uptherams said:

Convenient of who? The point of that tweet is to highlight the London bubble versus the rest of England. 

Convenient to anyone who wants to highlight the London bubble? I’m not saying it’s wrong but polls depend on so many variables (eg, if you get data by calling people at home then who’s more likely in? Does it look to include businesses? We know very little on where the data is from). Like I’ve said before, we all know the country is divided on the topic. All polls like this (and ones on the remain side) are used so people who already think one way can agree with it and feel validated. The question it’s posing is ‘which extreme do you want?’. Revoke would always poll badly, even if it’s not the worst scenario.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/04/02/what-do-public-think-might-break-brexit-deadlock

This is where that poll came from, it is a slightly interesting read but again does it really tell you anything you didn’t know already?

[LB_DCFC]

6 minutes ago, reveldevil said:

I can't remember a single thing about the situation in Northern Ireland being mentioned in any memorable way during the referendum, yet ever since it's been an insurmountable problem.

 Was the NI issue swept under the carpet, or do people in the rest of the UK not really care?

 

Both. As shown by the level of people wanting No Deal, which would be dreadful for NI.

[Uptherams]

6 minutes ago, reveldevil said:

I can't remember a single thing about the situation in Northern Ireland being mentioned in any memorable way during the referendum, yet ever since it's been an insurmountable problem.

Was the NI issue swept under the carpet, or do people in the rest of the UK not really care?

 

What's actually going to be enforced, by who and to what degree? That whole situation strikes me as being blown way out of proportion. There's also always loopholes. 

[sheeponacid]

4 hours ago, GboroRam said:

I'll try to respond as there's a lot of common views here and some of them just don't ring true to me. 

I have no confidence in a Tory government to improve this either in or out of the EU. Not a relevant concern for my money.

The Tories will not be in power after Brexit for many a year, very relevant in my opinion.

I don't think we're short of talented people. And we also have freedom of movement, allowing the best to come to us. If it wasn't for draining medical talent from EU countries, the NHS would be even more screwed than it is now.

Various Eastern Europeans have stated that their best accademics have migrated for economic reasons....do you think it's fair to prop up our NHS etc at the expense of other countries?? 

Again, I'm in favour of a strong minimum wage, so cheap labour is not an issue in or out of the EU for me. Still not a relevant concern.

Exploitation of people is a relevant concern, to support an organisations who propagate it is not something we both support, & but I believe they'll be less of it after Brexit.

Again, I've no reason to blame anyone other than the Tory government for austerity. Alternatives were proposed, and the electorate preferred to continue with austerity than be bold and try something different. I don't see the EU as the cause of austerity in this country.

So the Tories run Greece, Italy, Cyprus, Portugal, etc...not the last time I checked they didn't..the common denominator is they're all under EU rule....& the EU has bred a culture amongst its leaders of inflicting austerity on its citizens with little regard for how they manage.

EU standards aren't perfect, but without a trade deal I can envisage a drive for increased production and competitiveness with cheap imports, driving down welfare and wildlife preservation. I see leaving the EU having a negative effect here.

So rather than try the muted subsidies that will be linked to how environmentally friendly land is farmed, you feel safer sticking with a system that has been proven to be a nasty bit of work & a slow death to many species.. is that what your saying? Have you any idea of the levels of decline in wildlife numbers & agricultural practices under the EU policies,? Maybe you have, I don't know....we certainly do, which is why around 65-70% of farmer voted out (allegedly).the farming communities in the main are fairly comfortable that we can help stem the poison that has led to the devastation of our wildlife populations , soil qualities etc with the more environmentally friendly subsidy system that has been mentioned going forward...welfare standards & wildlife better under the CAP....please enlighten me? A flood of cheap products?? Which department of rural affairs has said this is happening...DEFRA per chance?

I can't see why the EU is the cause of this. Concerning, but the left leaning parties need to step up their game. If the UK economy was being held ransom by the EU and forcing austerity on us I'd have sympathy, as I think the far right are being fuelled by domestic policies - but certainly in this country, it's not being forced on us by the EU.

Agree to a lot of this, but we're breeding only capitalists now, money talks, so it's hard sell for the left, especially as Labour is now dominated mainly by Tory Blairs offspring who shifted it to the right to gain power & with the exception of a few members it bares little resemblance to a socialist party any more....we have a generation of people now who think capitalism is socialism...the socialist party in France is I believe anti EU still I think.

Again, I don't trust the Tory government with citizen rights at all, in or out of the EU. Not a concern to this discussion - it's domestic policy that will give citizens their rights.

Again I believe that Brexit will kill the Tories of For many a year to come so it'll be the centre parties like labour that will set citizens rights.

 

Quote

I pay around 40p per day to the EU. I don't see it as a bad investment. Particularly if the economy is around £800m per week worse off than it was prior to Article 50 being submitted, which is one figure being presented as the drop in buoyancy of the UK economy right now. I'm sure people will decry it as project fear, but it's a figure that's being suggested and I don't seem to hear the decriers presenting data of their own to counter it.

40p a day to help poison the environment with environmentally poor policies & to underfund the resources needed to meet the Paris agreement...is hardly a good investment for future me.... & this is we're we may differ. I'm more interested in the environments health than the economy & corporate globalisation trade deals...Siemens business deals etc or recovery of wildlife populations for future generations it's the latter every day of the week for me...

As you say we have a lot of common views, but I think we'll have a better society outside of the EU...the Tories are imploding, time to build a brighter future...we've tried it in the EU & it hasn't worked...just ask the songbirds & those living in poverty...time for a different roll of the dice....gawd weres Lambchop when you need her.

[ossieram]

1 hour ago, GboroRam said:

Which is least objectionable? Or rather, which is most objectionable? 

What vision would you support? Canada, Norway, Switzerland... Something else? 

I honestly couldn't choose between the two. Mays deal keeps us tied in and just about edges it over revoking article 50, but neither are what I voted for.

And as for supporting a vision, we are the 5th largest economy in the world and should be negotiating a better deal than all of those mentioned.

[Uptherams]

3 minutes ago, TuffLuff said:

Convenient to anyone who wants to highlight the London bubble? I’m not saying it’s wrong but polls depend on so many variables (eg, if you get data by calling people at home then who’s more likely in? Does it look to include businesses? We know very little on where the data is from). Like I’ve said before, we all know the country is divided on the topic. All polls like this (and ones on the remain side) are used so people who already think one way can agree with it and feel validated. The question it’s posing is ‘which extreme do you want?’. Revoke would always poll badly, even if it’s not the worst scenario.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/04/02/what-do-public-think-might-break-brexit-deadlock

This is where that poll came from, it is a slightly interesting read but again does it really tell you anything you didn’t know already?

It's very interesting polling. I personally did not expect the results of that poll in regards to England. Especially when it comes to non London South. The North of England has been portrayed as the most hostile and fanatical towards a 'Hard Brexit'. I suspect the hostility towards people in the North of England will only bolster support for No Deal.