The Politics Thread 2019

[ronnieronalde]

1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said:

No, the emergency 'punishment' budget and huge increase in unemployment if we were to vote Leave.

You say lies about facts that are in the public domain but just 2 posts ago you stated that all we send to the EU is about half the £350m stated, yet it is actually about 70%. 

For me, the underlying issues are important. I'd have exactly the same opinion if I had been told we have to pay £3.5m a week to the EU. I'm more interested in sorting our own country out before we worry about other countries problems. 

In that case surely you're fuming at what has gone on, why we were pushed to vote for something we really didn't need to fix as a priority. Do you know how much THIS government has spent of "our own countries" money by leaving something we didn't desperately need to leave and we STILL can't work out how to get out.

To get out of something that has looked like falling apart naturally on more than a couple of occasions.

Do you know how much this government have spent on back up plans and no deal contingency plans?

Do you know how much THIS government spent securing the vote of the DUP, then losing the vote of the party they bought with what can only be described as a sweetener?

What would you class as "sorting our own country out" What were/are the underlying issues? How much would it cost to fix those? Do you trust this or any other party to sort out those underlying issues just because we no longer contribute 250m a week to the EU? I'll tell you what they will do, they'll find money to waste and projects to massively overspend on. 

What was wrong with us "over" contributing to the EU? Surely that's how we make the world a better place overall? Those who have give to those who have not. The advantages of being a so called developed nation.

The 17.6m people who voted leave have something to answer for in my eyes. It wasn't entirely their fault though as we were all misled and neither side were 100% truthful. Some of the scare mongering both sides was nothing short of a disgrace.

If we'd have woken up the day after the referendum and it had been a remain vote, all of this balls would be over and maybe, just maybe with the billions it's cost so far we could have spent that money on the NHS, or on Education, or to "end" homelessness.

Bloody hell they've even set up a committee to investigate mis-spending and potential mis-use of funds on a  potential no deal preparation alone.

https://www.theweek.co.uk/93785/how-much-money-has-brexit-cost-the-uk

2 years ago I wasn't happy with the result BUT as we live in a democracy and the majority won, let's get out, FFS just get it sorted, that's what MP's are paid their ridiculously over inflated salaries to do. It's their job. The fact they've fecked things so badly makes me want to vomit on the shoes of Cameron, Johnson and even poor bloody Theresa May (poor but useless in the grand scheme of things)

The whole thing has been a nightmare from start to finish. All we've seen is that our leaders aren't fit to lead and the people underneath and around them have no clue either.

It's been a costly mess just so we can stick two fingers up to the continent and shout I'm alright Jack.

"we" made a decision two years ago to leave, "we" made that decision having no clue what the process would be like, "we" made it trusting those who told us it would be a piece of piss. Quick and painless and we'd be better off as well. What's not to love.

"we" make a decision on who our government is every five years, "we" can change our mind if we didn't like what the last lot did.

Yet on this "we" aren't allowed to even think of asking if maybe "we" have changed our minds now "we" know that the people "we" trusted to be able to negotiate a semi successful exit.

There are a hell of a lot of confident/adamant leavers who won't acknowledge or let anyone else acknowledge the possibility that maybe the 17.6m (and the politicians) didn't know what they were getting themselves and us into. Or god forbid a couple of million of the 17.6 have had a rethink.

The whole episode has left me wondering what kind of country I now live in.

 

[AndyinLiverpool]

10 minutes ago, ronnieronalde said:

In that case surely you're fuming at what has gone on, why we were pushed to vote for something we really didn't need to fix as a priority. Do you know how much THIS government has spent of "our own countries" money by leaving something we didn't desperately need to leave and we STILL can't work out how to get out.

To get out of something that has looked like falling apart naturally on more than a couple of occasions.

Do you know how much this government have spent on back up plans and no deal contingency plans?

Do you know how much THIS government spent securing the vote of the DUP, then losing the vote of the party they bought with what can only be described as a sweetener?

What would you class as "sorting our own country out" What were/are the underlying issues? How much would it cost to fix those? Do you trust this or any other party to sort out those underlying issues just because we no longer contribute 250m a week to the EU? I'll tell you what they will do, they'll find money to waste and projects to massively overspend on. 

What was wrong with us "over" contributing to the EU? Surely that's how we make the world a better place overall? Those who have give to those who have not. The advantages of being a so called developed nation.

The 17.6m people who voted leave have something to answer for in my eyes. It wasn't entirely their fault though as we were all misled and neither side were 100% truthful. Some of the scare mongering both sides was nothing short of a disgrace.

If we'd have woken up the day after the referendum and it had been a remain vote, all of this balls would be over and maybe, just maybe with the billions it's cost so far we could have spent that money on the NHS, or on Education, or to "end" homelessness.

Bloody hell they've even set up a committee to investigate mis-spending and potential mis-use of funds on a  potential no deal preparation alone.

https://www.theweek.co.uk/93785/how-much-money-has-brexit-cost-the-uk

2 years ago I wasn't happy with the result BUT as we live in a democracy and the majority won, let's get out, FFS just get it sorted, that's what MP's are paid their ridiculously over inflated salaries to do. It's their job. The fact they've fecked things so badly makes me want to vomit on the shoes of Cameron, Johnson and even poor bloody Theresa May (poor but useless in the grand scheme of things)

The whole thing has been a nightmare from start to finish. All we've seen is that our leaders aren't fit to lead and the people underneath and around them have no clue either.

It's been a costly mess just so we can stick two fingers up to the continent and shout I'm alright Jack.

"we" made a decision two years ago to leave, "we" made that decision having no clue what the process would be like, "we" made it trusting those who told us it would be a piece of piss. Quick and painless and we'd be better off as well. What's not to love.

"we" make a decision on who our government is every five years, "we" can change our mind if we didn't like what the last lot did.

Yet on this "we" aren't allowed to even think of asking if maybe "we" have changed our minds now "we" know that the people "we" trusted to be able to negotiate a semi successful exit.

There are a hell of a lot of confident/adamant leavers who won't acknowledge or let anyone else acknowledge the possibility that maybe the 17.6m (and the politicians) didn't know what they were getting themselves and us into. Or god forbid a couple of million of the 17.6 have had a rethink.

The whole episode has left me wondering what kind of country I now live in.

 

We live in this kind of country:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1129458/stamford-model-railway-exhibition-vandals-destruction

But also this one:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-48332649

[G STAR RAM]

@ronnieronalde I'm very angry at the money that has been wasted, this has all come about though because of a Remainer being left in charge of negotiations and other Remainers trying to de-rail the process.

I'll be honest, you could have another Referendum tomorrow for me. I'd still vote the same way but would not really care about the result. Democracy is dead in this country and, like most, I just want the whole thing over and done with either way.

[McRamFan]

Farage...man of the people, my arse.

https://www.politico.eu/article/mep-calls-for-investigation-into-farages-undisclosed-lavish-gifts/

[Stive Pesley]

1 hour ago, BurtonRam7 said:

Does anyone else fail to understand why the term 'liberal' is used so vehemently as a pejorative by the right?

Certainly curious eh? Although apparently, it's because the "liberals" aren't liberal at all and the only the right wing are actually the "real liberals" because liberty is apparently about being disgusted at the notion of minority groups standing up for themselves, training your dog to do nazi salutes and joking about raping women....

[ronnieronalde]

4 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

We live in this kind of country:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1129458/stamford-model-railway-exhibition-vandals-destruction

But also this one:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-48332649

The little poops. 

Then how cool are some people.

A railway club isn't top of my list though, I can't really say the government should be stepping in and funding a railway club, even though it's a noble project.

What it does show is that a fair portion of the UK public are prepared to dip their hands into their pockets to fund something they believe in. A fair portion of the UK public have caring hearts. So it's a touch surprising that a fair portion of our public would also turn someone away from our country because of a perceived cost or worse, colour of skin.

My main concern is the growing number of situations where normal joe bloggs is stepping in to solve problems our own government has the cash to fix. Food banks being a classic example.

They have the money, they've proven that by being able to throw a BILLION at the DUP, to buy their vote.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/26/tories-and-the-dup-reach-deal-to-prop-up-minority-government

they've proven it by throwing another 2 BILLION at the HS2 project and that's despite this

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/jan/13/hs2-may-run-fewer-slower-trains-to-stay-on-budget-and-schedule

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/dec/17/hs2-misled-mps-about-cost-of-high-speed-rail-project-whistleblower

The money is there for priority issues like saving their own jobs. We didn't need to leave the EU to fix our own issues, we just needing to stop shpunting money up the wall simply to keep politicians in the job which they're clearly not very good at.

There must be someone, there must be at least a handful who aren't total ducking frauds but they're tough to spot that's for sure.

 

[ronnieronalde]

14 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

@ronnieronalde I'm very angry at the money that has been wasted, this has all come about though because of a Remainer being left in charge of negotiations and other Remainers trying to de-rail the process.

I'll be honest, you could have another Referendum tomorrow for me. I'd still vote the same way but would not really care about the result. Democracy is dead in this country and, like most, I just want the whole thing over and done with either way.

The irony in that is that if the "remainers" had done a better job and not been so arrogantly, aloofly stupid. They'd have ran a proper campaign instead of sitting there half arsed thinking the Leave vote wouldn't get near a majority.

Both sides of the fence have been let down.

I'm past caring now but she and they have managed all aspects of it pre and post, so badly that I think politicians and politics have effectively become redundant. If we didn't need the dumb fuckwits to manage us administratively I honestly believe a "no party" vote would clean up if it were an option.

 

[maxjam]

19 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

Certainly curious eh? Although apparently, it's because the "liberals" aren't liberal at all and the only the right wing are actually the "real liberals" because liberty is apparently about being disgusted at the notion of minority groups standing up for themselves, training your dog to do nazi salutes and joking about raping women....

Or maybe its because people that believe in free speech also believe in judging people by the content of their character and not what their minority group dictates?

Martin Luther King spent years trying to tear down walls, identity politics is all about putting them back up again and focusing on our differences rather than what we have in common.

"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."

That and they can understand jokes and satire out of context and don't remove context from everything ?

[Stive Pesley]

25 minutes ago, maxjam said:

That and they can understand jokes and satire out of context and don't remove context from everything ?

I think there is some sort of trades description issue with the word "joke" though - jokes by definition have to be funny in the first place. A joke that isn't funny, but is soley steeped in adversarial, provocative content, as if that in itself is a punchline, is simply not funny. It's not about the humour and never was - it's about the target.

But anyway - back to identity politics as an issue. What do you think causes it to be so prevalent - and what is the solution? I don't happen to think the solution is sticking up for angry white men's right to be angry white men. Surely the solution lies in better inclusivity, more social and financial equality ?

MLKs point was not that he wanted people to see past colour, it was that he wanted a country where everyone was happy and therefore didn't engage in ANY sort of us v them conflict

[ronnieronalde]

2 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

No, the emergency 'punishment' budget and huge increase in unemployment if we were to vote Leave.

You say lies about facts that are in the public domain but just 2 posts ago you stated that all we send to the EU is about half the £350m stated, yet it is actually about 70%. 

For me, the underlying issues are important. I'd have exactly the same opinion if I had been told we have to pay £3.5m a week to the EU. I'm more interested in sorting our own country out before we worry about other countries problems. 

Genuinely interested and as you're able to discuss/reply in such a sensible way, it's actually a pleasure to ask.

How far should we go on the bolded bit? 

I understand controlled immigration is not the same as a blanket "close our borders" immigration policy. I can separate the two groups or people, one is lets say nationalistic, the other is pure racist. I've known you long enough on here to know you're not a racist and I don't mind a bit of nationalism as long as it's well placed.

Here's a solution that would fix everything in one fell swoop and would certainly "sort out" our own countries problems first.

We spend (approx) 50 BILLION USD on defence each year - up from 28m in 2000, prior to 11/09 (fecking 9/11 my jacksie)

We spent 13,4 BILLION in foreign aid in 2018.

We deployed just over 9,000 military personnel overseas as of October 2017. There are more than 11,000 EMPTY military homes in the UK,costing the taxpayer 25m a year.

If we're really serious about this sorting our own poo out first. 

1) Reduce defence spending immediately and look to phase it back down to pre 2001 levels within 10 years. Those "savings" to be immediately split 50/50 between the NHS and Education.

2) Drop all foreign aid until 2025.

3) bring back all of our military personnel and get them working on social projects in this country, starting with fixing up the 11,000 empty homes and finishing by building enough social housing to take the 4,000 rough sleepers off the streets, or to build enough so that single mums who are near homelessness are housed. 

4) any medical personnel currently signed up for the Military but based abroad comes back home immediately and is "assigned" a role in the NHS to prop up any shortfall in doctors/nurses.

5) and one for the popular vote, immediately CUT MP's salaries to the national average in whatever constituency they are voted in to. That will soon tell us who is in it as a "civil servant" and who is in it as a fat cat drain on our resources.

Is that how far we should isolate ourselves from our responsibility as a developed nation? Is that how far we should go?

Fix us first. Spend OUR money here first. Look after our own. Build a better future for OUR kids.

Now that is a racist policy but it's one I'd be more comfortable with, instead of this "blaming" the EU and thinking leaving will wave a magic fairy wand at all of our own societal issues. It's a classic politicians diversion tactic. 

We've fell for it hook line and sinker.

[Ghost of Clough]

15 minutes ago, ronnieronalde said:

Genuinely interested and as you're able to discuss/reply in such a sensible way, it's actually a pleasure to ask.

How far should we go on the bolded bit? 

I understand controlled immigration is not the same as a blanket "close our borders" immigration policy. I can separate the two groups or people, one is lets say nationalistic, the other is pure racist. I've known you long enough on here to know you're not a racist and I don't mind a bit of nationalism as long as it's well placed.

Here's a solution that would fix everything in one fell swoop and would certainly "sort out" our own countries problems first.

We spend (approx) 50 BILLION USD on defence each year - up from 28m in 2000, prior to 11/09 (fecking 9/11 my jacksie)

We spent 13,4 BILLION in foreign aid in 2018.

We deployed just over 9,000 military personnel overseas as of October 2017. There are more than 11,000 EMPTY military homes in the UK,costing the taxpayer 25m a year.

If we're really serious about this sorting our own poo out first. 

1) Reduce defence spending immediately and look to phase it back down to pre 2001 levels within 10 years. Those "savings" to be immediately split 50/50 between the NHS and Education.

Stop defence spending and you'll see a heck of a lot of more people without a job, making the problem of unemployment/homelessness worse. I don't have the figures to bac kit up, but I'm sure a lot of this is reclaimed through taxes anyway. A more efficient method of purchasing parts would probably meant the budget could be cut by a third with little impact on jobs. Fewer rare materials will also be used so there would be a big positive environmental impact too.

15 minutes ago, ronnieronalde said:

2) Drop all foreign aid until 2025.

3) bring back all of our military personnel and get them working on social projects in this country, starting with fixing up the 11,000 empty homes and finishing by building enough social housing to take the 4,000 rough sleepers off the streets, or to build enough so that single mums who are near homelessness are housed. 

I don't think many in the military have the required skills to build houses

15 minutes ago, ronnieronalde said:

4) any medical personnel currently signed up for the Military but based abroad comes back home immediately and is "assigned" a role in the NHS to prop up any shortfall in doctors/nurses.

5) and one for the popular vote, immediately CUT MP's salaries to the national average in whatever constituency they are voted in to. That will soon tell us who is in it as a "civil servant" and who is in it as a fat cat drain on our resources.

Is that how far we should isolate ourselves from our responsibility as a developed nation? Is that how far we should go?

Fix us first. Spend OUR money here first. Look after our own. Build a better future for OUR kids.

Now that is a racist policy but it's one I'd be more comfortable with, instead of this "blaming" the EU and thinking leaving will wave a magic fairy wand at all of our own societal issues. It's a classic politicians diversion tactic. 

We've fell for it hook line and sinker.

Apart from my two responses above, I don't have much of an issue with the rest of the points you've raised though.

[ronnieronalde]

5 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Stop defence spending and you'll see a heck of a lot of more people without a job, making the problem of unemployment/homelessness worse. I don't have the figures to bac kit up, but I'm sure a lot of this is reclaimed through taxes anyway. A more efficient method of purchasing parts would probably meant the budget could be cut by a third with little impact on jobs. Fewer rare materials will also be used so there would be a big positive environmental impact too.

I don't think many in the military have the required skills to build houses

Apart from my two responses above, I don't have much of an issue with the rest of the points you've raised though.

Have you seen the military in action? They build bridges, they lay roads, they dig tunnels, I'm fairly sure with a couple of months training and a decent site manager, project manager and site supervisor they'd be up to speed in no time. Houses can be flat pack/ready to assemble or even 3d printed these days. It's easier than putting together an Ikea wardrobe.

I didn't say stop defence spending, I said cut it from 50b to 28b over ten years, (-2b a year) hell you could make it fifteen years if that was a deal breaker. If you can find the figures that say homelessness and unemployment would rise, I'd be keen to see them and I'd then think twice and thrice.

I'll try to find the turnover and profit of the biggest suppliers if I can. I must admit I have no clue who they might be.

On the second point, if you can drive 33% savings in procurement through the military first and second tier supply chain, while positively impacting the environment first of all you're clearly a genius and secondly whoever gets the top job should immediately appoint you as Minister of Defense ?

Of course I could just admit I have no clue what I'm talking about and it's all total finger in the air stuff, but the lads and lasses in charge have been doing that for years and it does them no harm.

[G STAR RAM]

@ronnieronalde like a few of your ideas.

Foreign aid is definitely something that needs looking at.

I'd be wary of cutting defence expenditure, these are dangerous times we live in.

Also would not agree with blanket reduction of MP salaries but would want their pay to be performance related in some way. Hard to police of course but when you see MPs asleep in the House of Commons their pay should be amended accordingly. 

I have zero problem with immigration but it's got to be controlled and I don't agree that EU citizens get priority above anyone else. For me I would just want a temporary cap while we get our house in order.

 

[maxjam]

42 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

I think there is some sort of trades description issue with the word "joke" though - jokes by definition have to be funny in the first place. A joke that isn't funny, but is soley steeped in adversarial, provocative content, as if that in itself is a punchline, is simply not funny. It's not about the humour and never was - it's about the target.

As humour is subjective who are we to define what is funny?  I personally smiled at the nazi pug but thought Sargon's joke about 'not being enough beer in the world' poor taste.  His initial non rape tweet however was designed to illicit a response - which it got.  Ricky Gervais did a recent interview in GQ magazine on social media and jokes etc, its a good read;

https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/ricky-gervais-interview-2019

 

45 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

But anyway - back to identity politics as an issue. What do you think causes it to be so prevalent - and what is the solution?

Dialogue and the willingness to listen to opinions that you don't agree with.  Censorship, deplatforming, not allowing speakers at events is acting in a far more fascist manner that those you want to silence.  I'm a firm believer in peoples ability to listen and rationalise arguments - good ones will gain traction, bad ones will get taken apart.  Censoring people, no matter how well intentioned leds people to hide their feelings and take them underground wallowing them to fester unchallenged.

I'm not siding with angry white men, I'm not siding with [insert minority group here] I try to take people as individuals and not pre-judge them on what immutable characteristics they have.

[ronnieronalde]

9 minutes ago, maxjam said:

As humour is subjective who are we to define what is funny?  I personally smiled at the nazi pug but thought Sargon's joke about 'not being enough beer in the world' poor taste.  His initial non rape tweet however was designed to illicit a response - which it got.  Ricky Gervais did a recent interview in GQ magazine on social media and jokes etc, its a good read;

https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/ricky-gervais-interview-2019

 

Dialogue and the willingness to listen to opinions that you don't agree with.  Censorship, deplatforming, not allowing speakers at events is acting in a far more fascist manner that those you want to silence.  I'm a firm believer in peoples ability to listen and rationalise arguments - good ones will gain traction, bad ones will get taken apart.  Censoring people, no matter how well intentioned leds people to hide their feelings and take them underground wallowing them to fester unchallenged.

I'm not siding with angry white men, I'm not siding with [insert minority group here] I try to take people as individuals and not pre-judge them on what immutable characteristics they have.

I think that's a bit too idealistic maxjam and that coming from someone who would try to build Utopia if he could.

The issue for me there is that while you may be a rational bloke who can calmly talk things through there's probably at least one more who would tear someone's head off at even the slightest sign of disagreement.

Unfortunately not everyone has the same level of intellect, unfortunately not everyone has a basic level of intellect. You keep saying Tommy Robinson is not that bad, now that may be ok if you're in a room with Tommy on his own, but what happens when it's you and three of his henchmen, sorry did I say henchmen? I meant campaign support staff.

My best mate - an unbelievably clever bloke used to be on the debate team at Durham University. Every now and then he'd sit there and say

"No, No. I hear what you're saying but you're still a Bamford" just to provoke a reaction.

You only need to look on here (and even at me) to see how little patience people have before they take their argument to it's lowest possible level.

If people at ordinary level could be trusted to sort themselves and their issues out sensibly we wouldn't need corrupt politicians, we wouldn't need to spend 50 billion a year on weapons of mass destruction and we wouldn't even need the Police.

We'd probably still be in the EU but at least everyone would love us and we'd all be minted and proper laid back.

[maxjam]

12 minutes ago, ronnieronalde said:

I think that's a bit too idealistic maxjam and that coming from someone who would try to build Utopia if he could.

The issue for me there is that while you may be a rational bloke who can calmly talk things through there's probably at least one more who would tear someone's head off at even the slightest sign of disagreement.

Unfortunately not everyone has the same level of intellect, unfortunately not everyone has a basic level of intellect. You keep saying Tommy Robinson is not that bad, now that may be ok if you're in a room with Tommy on his own, but what happens when it's you and three of his henchmen, sorry did I say henchmen? I meant campaign support staff.

Well if I'm guilty of a bit idealistic then I'll hold my hands up to that.

With regards to Tommy Robinson my argument has always been you let people speak regardless of whether you agree with them or not.  TR has stated numerous times that he started the EDL because he could see what was happening in his home town (grooming gangs) and despite telling authorities nothing happened - and as has come out in various reports, fear of being labelled racist was one of the factors in not investigating these crimes.

The Tommy Robinsons of the world appear when good people are to afraid to stand up and say something - let good people talk freely, don't censor one side of the argument and people like TR will never gain traction.

[Carnero]

4 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

No, the emergency 'punishment' budget and huge increase in unemployment if we were to vote Leave.

You say lies about facts that are in the public domain but just 2 posts ago you stated that all we send to the EU is about half the £350m stated, yet it is actually about 70%. 

For me, the underlying issues are important. I'd have exactly the same opinion if I had been told we have to pay £3.5m a week to the EU. I'm more interested in sorting our own country out before we worry about other countries problems. 

You forgot - "This is a once in a lifetime vote and we will implement the result".

[Ghost of Clough]

21 minutes ago, ronnieronalde said:

Have you seen the military in action? They build bridges, they lay roads, they dig tunnels, I'm fairly sure with a couple of months training and a decent site manager, project manager and site supervisor they'd be up to speed in no time. Houses can be flat pack/ready to assemble or even 3d printed these days. It's easier than putting together an Ikea wardrobe.

You could be right on that

21 minutes ago, ronnieronalde said:

I didn't say stop defence spending, I said cut it from 50b to 28b over ten years, (-2b a year) hell you could make it fifteen years if that was a deal breaker. If you can find the figures that say homelessness and unemployment would rise, I'd be keen to see them and I'd then think twice and thrice.

Almost halving the budget would still be dangerous.

"Faslane (HMNB Clyde) is the second largest single-site employer in Scotland, after the Queen Elizabeth University Hospital in Glasgow."

"Largest supplier of apprenticeships"

I think there are close to 500,000 people in jobs reliant on defence projects. There will be other companies slightly affected due to some loss of trade. 2.097m work in 'Public admin & defence; social security' (UK total employment is 32.641m)

The defence sector also exports just under £10b a year, bringing money into this country.

21 minutes ago, ronnieronalde said:

I'll try to find the turnover and profit of the biggest suppliers if I can. I must admit I have no clue who they might be.

BAE, Backcock, Rolls Royce are amongst the bigger ones

21 minutes ago, ronnieronalde said:

On the second point, if you can drive 33% savings in procurement through the military first and second tier supply chain, while positively impacting the environment first of all you're clearly a genius and secondly whoever gets the top job should immediately appoint you as Minister of Defense ?

Of course I could just admit I have no clue what I'm talking about and it's all total finger in the air stuff, but the lads and lasses in charge have been doing that for years and it does them no harm.

33% may be over egging it a bit (should have looked into the figures a bit before posting)- certainly close to 20%. I know there are some companies who could save hundreds of millions of pounds if they shared resources rather than allowing parts to be chucked in a landfill (mainly due to MOQs). The minerals and metals which are thrown away is ridiculous. Other companies will undoubtedly be doing the same.

[ronnieronalde]

5 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Well if I'm guilty of a bit idealistic then I'll hold my hands up to that.

With regards to Tommy Robinson my argument has always been you let people speak regardless of whether you agree with them or not.  TR has stated numerous times that he started the EDL because he could see what was happening in his home town (grooming gangs) and despite telling authorities nothing happened - and as has come out in various reports, fear of being labelled racist was one of the factors in not investigating these crimes.

The Tommy Robinsons of the world appear when good people are to afraid to stand up and say something - let good people talk freely, don't censor one side of the argument and people like TR will never gain traction.

Thatt I agree with fully but again there are issues.

The majority of "good" people (and maybe bad people as well) don't like confrontation and don't like others being confrontational either. Mos would prefer a quiet life and 'cos of that, not only do they not speak out but on a lo of occasions they also get angry (or disappointed) with the good person who talks freely. "Why do you have to cause trouble, why can't you just ignore him and keep your head down like the rest of us?" "You can't say things like that, there's no point anyway, he won't change his mind."

I'll switch it to football and to this very forum. i'll take on the role of the good guy ?

bad guy - Nigel Clough is a ducking useless Bamford.

me - hang on a minute, you can't say that.

Forum - oh yes he can, freedom of speech. Calm down Ronnie, come on pal you're causing arguments all over the place.

Me to bad guy -Ok, so he's not a Bamford you are.

bad guy - that's personal abuse you Clough loving gay boy.

Moderators (who may be not so nasty but are possibly closer to agreeing with him than with me on Nigel = ban hammer ?

me - crying in my milk cos I can't post for a month.

Getting back to Mr Robinson, I'll never be able to move beyond Tommy's rhetoric when he first hit the scene and NOTHING I've seen or read since has changed my mind. He's the leader? He chooses who he surrounds himself with, he dictates the message and how it's delivered. 

Only last week there are videos of his cronies threatening to knock a teenagers teeth out because he refused to finish a milkshake, even though he was forty yards from where Tommy was giving his latest rabble rousing speech. 

You think people like that are interested in calm rational debate, I wouldn't trust them as far as they could punch me.

 

*** I admit I'm over using the word Bamford but it's more that it really made me chuckle that David changed it to Bamford, so it's paying homage to David rather than being deliberately foul mouthed.

 

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1 hour ago, Ghost of Clough said:

 

I don't think many in the military have the required skills to build houses

 

Due to lack of investment in the training by the building industry. Every major construction company hasn't got enough people with the required skills to build good houses.

Maybe we should ask if theres any European brickies or plumbers that fancy a job over here.