The Politics Thread 2019

[Stive Pesley]

4 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Is this not also a part of the problem? 

Just assuming that these people are all elitist and therefore dismissing what they say without actually listening to the content? 

Maybe - although I don't just "assume" that they are elitist. They are privately educated, wealthy individuals from wealthy families. What evidence have they ever produced to suggest they aren't elitist? I have listened to the content, and that's why it makes no sense. They are clearly elitist, trying to appeal to people who they wouldn't even wipe their feet on

Equally part of the problem is that their status and power allows them to fool a large proportion of the public that they mean what they say, without challenge. Maybe it's the product of a Monarchial society - but  we do seem to have an inbuilt deference to posh people

 

 

[McRamFan]

3 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Seen numerous interviews with that OFOC guy, what a joke he is.

Back it with facts.

 

3 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

A lie is a factually incorrect statement. Not an opinion that is different to yours.

No a lie is a lie.  The bus - a lie, A queue of immigrants - a lie, we have to take the laws the EU makes - a lie, we can make deals better than the deal we have with the EU - a lie.

This is what is happening.

https://brexitlies.com/

[G STAR RAM]

1 minute ago, McRamFan said:

Why does 17m get to decide on a population of 66m?  It's that small 17m that is dividing the country, the people that are impacted the most, didn't have a choice, and the people who voted leave, and will vote leave again is less than half that number.  Normally I would provide a link, however I am following the brexit model and not.

Absolutely no basis to this statement. 

Yes.  The EU has been chasing tax avoidance for decades, Thatcher vetoed every move to close loopholes for banks/traders, that let to the yuppie crash, that impacted the UK, whilst the rest of Europe was hardly impacted.  But hey, we have no power and have to take all the rules/laws the EU impose....hmm another brexit lie.

What was the lie? 

Leaving the EU will not stop immigration, the vast majority is from the far east. 

Correct, but it will give us complete control over numbers.

Leaving the EU will not stop austerity, in fact, it could make it worse as employment laws would be destroyed, under the tories/right wing government.  Thatcher tried to stop things like sick pay, minimum holidays, mat/pat leave, right of appeal, human rights etc.

I thought Margaret Thatcher had been out of power for nearly 30 years now?

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/rees-mogg-declares-himself-fan-of-irish-investment-regime-1.3822113

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jacob-rees-mogg-brexit-scm-ireland-investment-fund-conservative-mp-a8461021.html

https://www.ft.com/content/38987fe2-6f19-11e8-92d3-6c13e5c92914

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/foreign-affairs/brexit/news/95973/jacob-rees-mogg-defends-own-firm-after-it-moved-dublin

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/22/jacob-rees-mogg-second-irish-fund-scm

Here is a link to what the Irish think, it;s one of the more balanced ones.

https://www.thejournal.ie/uk-politicians-4336217-Dec2018/

I think you need to do some research, before you call someone out.

Thanks for the links, confirming what I had said. There is a distinct difference between transferring your business to Dublin and setting up a new fund in Dublin.

 

[G STAR RAM]

1 minute ago, McRamFan said:

No a lie is a lie.  The bus - a lie, A queue of immigrants - a lie, we have to take the laws the EU makes - a lie, we can make deals better than the deal we have with the EU - a lie.

This is what is happening.

https://brexitlies.com/

You really have trouble in distinguishing the difference between an opinion and a lie.

How was the bus a lie? 

How was a picture of a queue of immigrants a lie?

How is stating we have EU laws in place here a lie?

How people have chosen to interpret the above statements is down to the individual but not one of them is a lie.

[GboroRam]

7 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

You really have trouble in distinguishing the difference between an opinion and a lie.

How was the bus a lie? 

Because it was a lie. 

"we send the EU £350m a week" 

But we don't. The figure includes the rebate, which is deducted at source. We never send that much money. The money we send is about half that. 

It's simply wrong. It's a lie. 

[McRamFan]

16 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Thanks for the links, confirming what I had said. There is a distinct difference between transferring your business to Dublin and setting up a new fund in Dublin.

Thanks for proving you didn't read them, being as you responded so quickly.  Good luck in Farage land, you do realise he actually doesn't want to leave the EU? 

[G STAR RAM]

11 minutes ago, McRamFan said:

Thanks for proving you didn't read them, being as you responded so quickly.  Good luck in Farage land, you do realise he actually doesn't want to leave the EU? 

I don't need to read them, I've previously researched the matter.

A company in which Jacob Rees Mogg is a shareholder, has set up a fund in Dublin. It has not transferred it's business to Dublin as the poster said. Assume you're going to call him out on that lie?

I don't live in Farage land. He is just one of a number of people who's views I have listened to and have bits that I agree with.

[G STAR RAM]

22 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

Because it was a lie. 

"we send the EU £350m a week" 

But we don't. The figure includes the rebate, which is deducted at source. We never send that much money. The money we send is about half that. 

It's simply wrong. It's a lie. 

Ok, yes that it a lie.

But yes our bill for EU membership in 2017 equated to circa  £18.6 billion. 

The money we sent was circa £13 billion, which equates to £250 million per week, so quite a bit more than half of the £350 million quoted.

In the grand scheme of things do you think that the difference between £350 million and £250 million would have been the straw that broke the camels back?

[GboroRam]

6 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Ok, yes that it a lie.

But yes our bill for EU membership in 2017 equated to circa  £18.6 billion. 

The money we sent was circa £13 billion, which equates to £250 million per week, so quite a bit more than half of the £350 million quoted.

In the grand scheme of things do you think that the difference between £350 million and £250 million would have been the straw that broke the camels back?

I think no matter what the number is, the public wouldn't have gone for it. But that wasn't the question. Did leave.eu lie about major parts of the discussion? 

[AndyinLiverpool]

1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said:

Is this not also a part of the problem? 

Just assuming that these people are all elitist and therefore dismissing what they say without actually listening to the content? 

Very few people listen to content these days (I'm not sure people ever did, to be frank). The assumption that the 'elite' all think the same way is one fostered by people like Farage, who regularly refers to the 'elite' in a way that simply reminds us that this privately-educated boor has tried desperately to be one for decades and he's simply bitter at being excluded.

[G STAR RAM]

40 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

I think no matter what the number is, the public wouldn't have gone for it. But that wasn't the question. Did leave.eu lie about major parts of the discussion? 

Yes, that figure was a lie but in my opinion the underlying point was not a lie.

Were there any lies from the Remain campaign, which had no substance whatsoever? 

 

[G STAR RAM]

38 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

Very few people listen to content these days (I'm not sure people ever did, to be frank). The assumption that the 'elite' all think the same way is one fostered by people like Farage, who regularly refers to the 'elite' in a way that simply reminds us that this privately-educated boor has tried desperately to be one for decades and he's simply bitter at being excluded.

I agree that this is one of his major downfalls. 

[GboroRam]

25 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Yes, that figure was a lie but in my opinion the underlying point was not a lie.

Were there any lies from the Remain campaign, which had no substance whatsoever? 

 

You mean the failure to predict the outcome of the vote? Predicting the future is notoriously difficult, so the fact the experts weren't bang on I can forgive. Outright making up the numbers because the underlying point is the same is outrageous. So many lies over the years, from bendy bananas to immigration, all lies about facts that are in the public domain. Inexcusable. Just plain lies. And people still defend them - you tried to, and still justify their use 

[G STAR RAM]

5 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

You mean the failure to predict the outcome of the vote? Predicting the future is notoriously difficult, so the fact the experts weren't bang on I can forgive. Outright making up the numbers because the underlying point is the same is outrageous. So many lies over the years, from bendy bananas to immigration, all lies about facts that are in the public domain. Inexcusable. Just plain lies. And people still defend them - you tried to, and still justify their use 

No, the emergency 'punishment' budget and huge increase in unemployment if we were to vote Leave.

You say lies about facts that are in the public domain but just 2 posts ago you stated that all we send to the EU is about half the £350m stated, yet it is actually about 70%. 

For me, the underlying issues are important. I'd have exactly the same opinion if I had been told we have to pay £3.5m a week to the EU. I'm more interested in sorting our own country out before we worry about other countries problems. 

[Wolfie]

Warning over 'new eurozone crisis'.....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48258720

Bailing Greece out (several times) was hard enough. With even Germany's growth currently stalling, they can really do without having to dig Italy out of their particular hole.

[DarkFruitsRam7]

Does anyone else fail to understand why the term 'liberal' is used so vehemently as a pejorative by the right?

[GboroRam]

34 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

No, the emergency 'punishment' budget and huge increase in unemployment if we were to vote Leave.

You say lies about facts that are in the public domain but just 2 posts ago you stated that all we send to the EU is about half the £350m stated, yet it is actually about 70%. 

For me, the underlying issues are important. I'd have exactly the same opinion if I had been told we have to pay £3.5m a week to the EU. I'm more interested in sorting our own country out before we worry about other countries problems. 

So you defend 350m as not a lie, then pull me up on saying about half, where you can see I'm being very rough with the numbers. Difference is I'm not leading a campaign, and I'm not stating it as a fact on the side of a bus. 

And you admit it doesn't matter what the number is to you. So why care about being honest? As long as it fits the leave agenda, truth is second place. 

The campaign of lies in the British media has been ongoing for decades, and people aren't interested in the truth. They want out at any cost, which is madness. 

I fear we will go back to the 70s.

[G STAR RAM]

30 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

So you defend 350m as not a lie, then pull me up on saying about half, where you can see I'm being very rough with the numbers. Difference is I'm not leading a campaign, and I'm not stating it as a fact on the side of a bus. 

And you admit it doesn't matter what the number is to you. So why care about being honest? As long as it fits the leave agenda, truth is second place. 

The campaign of lies in the British media has been ongoing for decades, and people aren't interested in the truth. They want out at any cost, which is madness. 

I fear we will go back to the 70s.

No, I have held my hand up and said the £350m was a lie. It was wrong. All I'm saying is if the correct figure had been put on the side of the bus, it would have had the same reaction, the underlying issue of paying to be a member of this club was the problem.

Now back to the emergency budget and threats of hundreds of thousands unemployed upon a leave vote...any comments on these claims? 

Out of the 2 things above I know which I think is worse.

I think a lot of people do want the truth and want people to be accountable for what they say.

 

[GboroRam]

10 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

No, I have held my hand up and said the £350m was a lie. It was wrong. All I'm saying is if the correct figure had been put on the side of the bus, it would have had the same reaction, the underlying issue of paying to be a member of this club was the problem.

Now back to the emergency budget and threats of hundreds of thousands unemployed upon a leave vote...any comments on these claims? 

Out of the 2 things above I know which I think is worse.

I think a lot of people do want the truth and want people to be accountable for what they say.

 

Er...one was a prediction based on expected run on the pound. One was bare faced untruths. Which is worst - making a prediction and being wrong, or knowingly making stuff up and rewriting history? The latter is worse, obviously. Unless you aren't being objective, because one backs up your narrative and one doesn't. 

[G STAR RAM]

4 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

Er...one was a prediction based on expected run on the pound. One was bare faced untruths. Which is worst - making a prediction and being wrong, or knowingly making stuff up and rewriting history? The latter is worse, obviously. Unless you aren't being objective, because one backs up your narrative and one doesn't. 

A prediction? ?

We were told public spending would be slashed and increase taxes if the UK voted leave.

Obviously the unemployment issue was a prediction.

The funny thing is people are still using the people that made these 'predictions' to justify why Brexit will be a disaster.