The Politics Thread 2019

[Stive Pesley]

31 minutes ago, maxjam said:

I'd agree that we should pay people a living wage.  Currently its around £9 with the mimumum wage lagging behind by around £1.  You can't simply increase it to £10 overnight however without consequences. 

And the consequences of NOT doing it are that people cannot afford to eat? Nice

[1of4]

50 minutes ago, Norman said:

My employer is the government. Yes, inequality runs deep, but raising the minimum wage by 20% will piss people like me off even more.

If your wages are enough to give you a good standard of living. Why should someone on a low wage getting a pay rise piss you off. If you think you warrant more money for what you do. Either ask your boss for more money in your pay packet or find a new job.

[A Ram for All Seasons]

1 hour ago, Norman said:

My employer is the government. Yes, inequality runs deep, but raising the minimum wage by 20% will piss people like me off even more.

That sounds like the "politics of envy" that the Tories and people like Richard Branson have been warning us about all these years.

[Norman]

2 minutes ago, 1of4 said:

If your wages are enough to give you a good standard of living. Why should someone on a low wage getting a pay rise piss you off. If you think you warrant more money for what you do. Either ask your boss for more money in your pay packet or find a new job.

Yeah, I would quit my dangerous job most people can't do and go clean. That's the ducking point. Then what would society do? 

Let me just go and ask the government for more money. Who do I go to, Boris Johnson? 

Why don't you tell people on minimum wage to 'find a new job'?.

[A Ram for All Seasons]

6 hours ago, Squid said:

First of all, Corbyn wants to bring NLW up to £10 ph for 16 years old and above (As soon as they get into power I heard) and also scrap university fees.

Now to me, as a 19 year old that sounds great, more money, free uni? awesome! But surely that will have a negative impact on the economy??

Then do your patriotic duty by staying poor and thick if you think it's a bad idea.....

[Stive Pesley]

5 minutes ago, Norman said:

Yeah, I would quit my dangerous job most people can't do and go clean. That's the ducking point. Then what would society do? 

Let me just go and ask the government for more money. Who do I go to, Boris Johnson?

so you have a dangerous job, and one with a skills shortage. And your employer is the government.

You're in the same boat as Nurses, Teachers, Police...

But you're arguing against the opposition, who believe in a fairer society where at the bottom of the ladder people are paid enough to live on and at all the rungs above that, people are actually paid what they are worth, rather than as little as their employer can possibly get away with?

What's that about?

[Norman]

3 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

so you have a dangerous job, and one with a skills shortage. And your employer is the government.

You're in the same boat as Nurses, Teachers, Police...

But you're arguing against the opposition, who believe in a fairer society where at the bottom of the ladder people are paid enough to live on and at all the rungs above that, people are actually paid what they are worth, rather than as little as their employer can possibly get away with?

What's that about?

No, Im not.

I am stating that people like me who are in skilled employment, doing dangerous jobs, but are not well off, will quit their jobs if a 20% rise to the minimum wage is done overnight. 

Why would I do my job when I can sit on a till at Asda? 

Increase the minimum wage, just like the massive increases it has already had compared to my job. Nothing against it. But there will be problems in society if you do it overnight. 

Not hard. 

[maxjam]

29 minutes ago, 1of4 said:

If your wages are enough to give you a good standard of living. Why should someone on a low wage getting a pay rise piss you off. If you think you warrant more money for what you do. Either ask your boss for more money in your pay packet or find a new job.

Sticking with my McDonalds comparison why would you take on extra responsibilty at McDonalds (Team Trainer £8.29/hr) for the same money as someone lower down the scale than you (Food Attendant £7.76/hr) if you were both simply boosted to £10/hr.  What about the Customer Service Team Leader (£8.40/hr)?  Are we just going to pay them all £10/hr or do we give some a bit more for extra responsibility?

Then what about the people that were originally on £8-£12 per hour (more than those listed above) that have now been overtaken by those with less qualifications, experience or responsibility?  You ask your boss for more money. 

So the £10/hr minimum wage is already having a knock on effect and the price of burgers shoot up or you cut staff.

 

[Ghost of Clough]

What is the real living wage? Guessing at monthly expenditure I'd say the current minimum wage is about right.
Rent / Mortgage = £500 pm
Council Tax, Power, Water, Internet = £250
Food = £120 pp
Car = £120

'Luxuries' on top of that...
Phone - £10 pp (excluding phone cost)
Presents - £50 pp (£600 for the year)
Clothes/Other - £50 pp (£600 for the year)

Totals based on my very crude estimates...
1 Adult - £1100
1 Adult, 1 Child - £1330
1 Adult, 2 Children - £1560
1 Adult, 3 Children - £1790
2 Adults, 3 Children - £2020

What do you need to earn (per hour) to reach these figures?
1 Adult - £7.30
1 Adult, 1 Child - £9.40
1 Adult, 2 Children - £11.40
1 Adult, 3 Children - £13.50
2 Adults, 3 Children - £15.60 (one parent working)
2 Adults, 3 Children - £6.45 (both parents working)

 

Maybe people need to learn how to spend their money more efficiently?

[Norman]

In fact, no, duck it. Increase it overnight. 

Teachers, fire fighters, police officers, prison officers, border patrol, nurses etc. 

We can all go and work at Asda and Lidl 6 days a week instead of what we do now and come out with the same money. 

Pension might not be so good though. But all those years in education and trying to better myself will be for nothing. Brilliant. Society will be wonderful. 

[Stive Pesley]

4 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Sticking with my McDonalds comparison why would you take on extra responsibilty at McDonalds (Team Trainer £8.29/hr) for the same money as someone lower down the scale than you (Food Attendant £7.76/hr) if you were both simply boosted to £10/hr.  What about the Customer Service Team Leader (£8.40/hr)?  Are we just going to pay them all £10/hr or do we give some a bit more for extra responsibility?

Then what about the people that were originally on £8-£12 per hour (more than those listed above) that have now been overtaken by those with less qualifications, experience or responsibility?  You ask your boss for more money. 

So the £10/hr minimum wage is already having a knock on effect and the price of burgers shoot up or you cut staff.

 

Again - your argument is predicated on suppressing wages for the lowest skilled, just so that we don't upset the people on wages on the few rungs above them, who we are already under-paying.

Everyone in work should be paid enough to live on, everyone should be paid according to their worth.

Anything beyond that is an apology for neoliberal oppression

[Wolfie]

3 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

Again - your argument is predicated on suppressing wages for the lowest skilled, just so that we don't upset the people on wages on the few rungs above them, who we are already under-paying.

Everyone in work should be paid enough to live on, everyone should be paid according to their worth.

Anything beyond that is an apology for neoliberal oppression

Decided by whom and on what basis?

 

[maxjam]

15 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

Again - your argument is predicated on suppressing wages for the lowest skilled, just so that we don't upset the people on wages on the few rungs above them, who we are already under-paying.

Everyone in work should be paid enough to live on, everyone should be paid according to their worth.

Anything beyond that is an apology for neoliberal oppression

I'd agree with that in principle but simply increasing the minimum wage overnight to £10 is an unrealistic, ideological goal that has far reaching economic consequences. 

https://www.ft.com/content/0a5d6076-359e-11e7-bce4-9023f8c0fd2e

[Angry Ram]

24 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

What is the real living wage? Guessing at monthly expenditure I'd say the current minimum wage is about right.
Rent / Mortgage = £500 pm
Council Tax, Power, Water, Internet = £250
Food = £120 pp
Car = £120

'Luxuries' on top of that...
Phone - £10 pp (excluding phone cost)
Presents - £50 pp (£600 for the year)
Clothes/Other - £50 pp (£600 for the year)

Totals based on my very crude estimates...
1 Adult - £1100
1 Adult, 1 Child - £1330
1 Adult, 2 Children - £1560
1 Adult, 3 Children - £1790
2 Adults, 3 Children - £2020

What do you need to earn (per hour) to reach these figures?
1 Adult - £7.30
1 Adult, 1 Child - £9.40
1 Adult, 2 Children - £11.40
1 Adult, 3 Children - £13.50
2 Adults, 3 Children - £15.60 (one parent working)
2 Adults, 3 Children - £6.45 (both parents working)

 

Maybe people need to learn how to spend their money more efficiently?

You don't live down here.. Can't get a park bench for £500 a month. Double that and add some.

[1of4]

46 minutes ago, Norman said:

No, Im not.

I am stating that people like me who are in skilled employment, doing dangerous jobs, but are not well off, will quit their jobs if a 20% rise to the minimum wage is done overnight. 

Why would I do my job when I can sit on a till at Asda? 

Increase the minimum wage, just like the massive increases it has already had compared to my job. Nothing against it. But there will be problems in society if you do it overnight. 

Not hard. 

Go and work at Asda and be forced to sign a new terms of employment contract or face the sack.

[Tamworthram]

1 hour ago, Norman said:

Yeah, I would quit my dangerous job most people can't do and go clean. That's the ducking point. Then what would society do? 

Let me just go and ask the government for more money. Who do I go to, Boris Johnson? 

Why don't you tell people on minimum wage to 'find a new job'?.

Just out of Interest, genuine question - I'm intrigued. What is your job?

[Ghost of Clough]

34 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

Again - your argument is predicated on suppressing wages for the lowest skilled, just so that we don't upset the people on wages on the few rungs above them, who we are already under-paying.

Everyone in work should be paid enough to live on, everyone should be paid according to their worth.

Anything beyond that is an apology for neoliberal oppression

In your opinion, how much is enough to live on?

[sonofmidnight]

There is far too  much difference between the highest and lowest earners in my opinion. I don't agree with the amount various celebrities receive purely for being celebrities and I am shocked by some salaries received by footballers particularly when they look as if they can't be bothered.  There ought to be a complete overhaul of what everyone earns with those doing highly skilled essential jobs earning the most.  People who work in caring roles definitely deserve.  But having been part of a small family business which was forced to close and make several people redundant during the last labour government, the sudden introduction of a £10 minimum wage and 4 day week concerns me.

[Stive Pesley]

19 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

In your opinion, how much is enough to live on?

My opinion is worthless, but for the record I thought your sums above were very much on the low side.
The only opinion that counts is the official one

https://www.livingwage.org.uk/calculation

 

52 minutes ago, Van Wolfie said:

Decided by whom and on what basis?

Well there are plenty of people on here who'd love to have a crack at it! They are pretty sure they know who deserves things and who doesn't! ?

47 minutes ago, maxjam said:

I'd agree with that in principle but simply increasing the minimum wage overnight to £10 is an unrealistic, ideological goal that has far reaching economic consequences. 

https://www.ft.com/content/0a5d6076-359e-11e7-bce4-9023f8c0fd2e

Damn paywall - can't read it.

FWIW I also agree that it's probably more realistic to increase it over a set schedule, and that's no doubt what the compromise outcome will be under a Labour-led coalition

[Ramshankered]

 

1 hour ago, Norman said:

In fact, no, duck it. Increase it overnight. 

Teachers, fire fighters, police officers, prison officers, border patrol, nurses etc. 

We can all go and work at Asda and Lidl 6 days a week instead of what we do now and come out with the same money. 

Pension might not be so good though. But all those years in education and trying to better myself will be for nothing. Brilliant. Society will be wonderful. 

I think - broadly speaking – we can assume (if Labour won) there'd be more investment in civil services, so those occupation you've listed would almost certainly see a pay rise too. 

Can't speak for other professions, but Teachers are already in decline under the current status quo. An increase in min. wage won't change that – and I don't know one teacher who'd begrudge a cleaner getting a pay rise anyway (they tend to score pretty high on empathy).