Norman Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 7 minutes ago, Dappled Ram said: I really don't like parties withdrawing candidates to leave the way open for another party with the same view on brexit. It makes a mockery of it being a general election. I'm just waiting to see what choice we get in Amber valley- probably just conservative, lib dems and labour! Agreed. Don't think it's right. We should be voting on manifestos, not tactically voting for Brexit or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 14 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: The problem you have here are these are all the same arguments that we heard when the Minimum Wage was introduced in 1999. It was supposed to be the end of small businesses - but turned out to be the most successful government policy of my lifetime, so excuse me if I don't buy the same tosh this time. Bottom line is that if a small business cannot afford to employ people on the set living wage (whatever that ends up being) then they don't have a valid business model. As a Tory you would surely say that they need to "work a bit harder" to come up with a better plan. Why should the government help them out by suppressing wages? NO HAND OUTS! Joking aside, It's imperative for a functioning society that work pays enough to live on. There is a very strong argument that the current political mess we find ourselves in is down to widening inequality. People have just had enough Who do you work for? How many people are in your office? (rhetorical you don't need to answer) I seem to recall you mentioning that you haven't had a pay rise, certainly not a meaningful one for several years now. How would your business cope if they suddenly bumped the minimum wage to £10? The cleaners would then be earning more than junior office staff, so then they would want a raise. Senior staff would then feel under-valued and need a raise and so on. My guess is you'd see either your hours reduced or x% made redundant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 10 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: The minimum wage is the most successful policy of your lifetime? Wow. Yeah why not? But then I only really have the Blair years to go on - the rest has been Tory misery. What's yours? 12 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: We are on about business that may already be established to shoulder a 20% increase on their payroll costs overnight. It absolutely ludicrous. As I already stated - you're assuming that all their employees are on minimum wage. Unlikely The fact you think it's "absolutely ludicrous" to pay people a wage that they can actually live on says a lot about you unfortunately. You would rather employers paid poverty wages. Literally building profits off the back of oppressed workers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 2 minutes ago, maxjam said: Who do you work for? How many people are in your office? (rhetorical you don't need to answer) I seem to recall you mentioning that you haven't had a pay rise, certainly not a meaningful one for several years now. How would your business cope if they suddenly bumped the minimum wage to £10? The cleaners would then be earning more than junior office staff, so then they would want a raise. Senior staff would then feel under-valued and need a raise and so on. My guess is you'd see either your hours reduced or x% made redundant. I sometimes risk my life going to work. If someone cleaning an office gets 10 quid an hour, I want a 20% payrise too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 Just now, SchtivePesley said: Yeah why not? But then I only really have the Blair years to go on - the rest has been Tory misery. What's yours? Never really thought about it to be honest, will come back to you on that one. As I already stated - you're assuming that all their employees are on minimum wage. Unlikely The fact you think it's "absolutely ludicrous" to pay people a wage that they can actually live on says a lot about you unfortunately. You would rather employers paid poverty wages. Literally building profits off the back of oppressed workers. And as I've already stated, you're assuming all other employees will just accept the lower paid staff getting a 20% rise and not expect anything themselves, I'm afraid you're living in an idealistic world rather than the real one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1of4 Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 19 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: The minimum wage is the most successful policy of your lifetime? Wow. We are on about business that may already be established to shoulder a 20% increase on their payroll costs overnight. It absolutely ludicrous. A business plan that is based on exploiting workers by paying them less than a real living wage, isn't a great plan to start with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 1 minute ago, 1of4 said: A business plan that is based on exploiting workers by paying them less than a real living wage, isn't a great plan to start with. Sometimes than plan is necessary to grow a business to employ people on more money and create more jobs. Small businesses would suffer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 1 minute ago, 1of4 said: A business plan that is based on exploiting workers by paying them less than a real living wage, isn't a great plan to start with. So all employers should have built in a 20% increase to payroll costs into their projections? Since when have employers been tasked with assessing what a real Living Wage is??? In the last 10 years the rate has increased by 60% already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 14 minutes ago, maxjam said: I seem to recall you mentioning that you haven't had a pay rise, certainly not a meaningful one for several years now. How would your business cope if they suddenly bumped the minimum wage to £10? The cleaners would then be earning more than junior office staff, so then they would want a raise. Senior staff would then feel under-valued and need a raise and so on. Not sure what scenario you're illustrating where the minimum wage increase puts cleaners on a higher wage than office staff? Minimum wage applies to everyone on the lowest pay. I don't buy that Senior Staff would feel under-valued. I certainly wouldn't - I'd be glad that people were being paid enough to live on. Yeah I've not had a payrise in 5 years, but I can afford a house, a car, food on the table and a nice holiday. Minimum wage by definition applies to the bottom rung only. I can't really fathom why you and @G STAR RAM are both making this particular argument, (other than it's just me therefore you have to say the opposite!) You realise that you're actually just advocating the enforcement of poverty on in-work people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 9 minutes ago, Norman said: Small businesses would suffer. I thought that was perfectly acceptable when it came to Brexit? Make your mind up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 1 minute ago, SchtivePesley said: I thought that was perfectly acceptable when it came to Brexit? Make your mind up! Your argument is weak. I don't think every single small business will be 20% worse off overnight, do you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 7 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: Not sure what scenario you're illustrating where the minimum wage increase puts cleaners on a higher wage than office staff? Minimum wage applies to everyone on the lowest pay. I don't buy that Senior Staff would feel under-valued. I certainly wouldn't - I'd be glad that people were being paid enough to live on. Yeah I've not had a payrise in 5 years, but I can afford a house, a car, food on the table and a nice holiday. Minimum wage by definition applies to the bottom rung only. I can't really fathom why you and @G STAR RAM are both making this particular argument, (other than it's just me therefore you have to say the opposite!) You realise that you're actually just advocating the enforcement of poverty on in-work people? Right, so I risk my life sometimes by entering my workplace. And a cleaner is going to be a pound or two an hour less than me overnight. I ain't going to work. And millions more wouldn't either. Unless that is what you want. Unions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 32 minutes ago, Norman said: Agreed. Don't think it's right. We should be voting on manifestos, not tactically voting for Brexit or not. I know you're no Corbyn fan, but at least you agree on this point. Making this election about Brexit is a massive mistake Last week Farage was saying that BJs deal was "simply not Brexit", but now has announced not to run in Tory seats so that the Tories get a majority and can deliver Brexit. Even though he doesn't think it's a good Brexit plan. They're all morons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 2 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: They're all morons I hope you've included Corbyn and Thornberry etc in that statement. If you have, I will agree with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 1 minute ago, Norman said: Right, so I risk my life sometimes by entering my workplace. And a cleaner is going to be a pound or two an hour less than me overnight. I ain't going to work. And millions more wouldn't either. Yeah the last thing we want is for those pesky cleaners to be able to afford to live. At least you're starting to see how deep the inequality goes. If you have a risky job and you aren't being well paid for it then your employer has a lot to answer for Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 1 minute ago, SchtivePesley said: Yeah the last thing we want is for those pesky cleaners to be able to afford to live. At least you're starting to see how deep the inequality goes. If you have a risky job and you aren't being well paid for it then your employer has a lot to answer for My employer is the government. Yes, inequality runs deep, but raising the minimum wage by 20% will piss people like me off even more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 1 minute ago, SchtivePesley said: Not sure what scenario you're illustrating where the minimum wage increase puts cleaners on a higher wage than office staff? Minimum wage applies to everyone on the lowest pay. I don't buy that Senior Staff would feel under-valued. I certainly wouldn't - I'd be glad that people were being paid enough to live on. Yeah I've not had a payrise in 5 years, but I can afford a house, a car, food on the table and a nice holiday. Minimum wage by definition applies to the bottom rung only. I can't really fathom why you and @G STAR RAM are both making this particular argument, (other than it's just me therefore you have to say the opposite!) You realise that you're actually just advocating the enforcement of poverty on in-work people? Dunno about office junior wages tbh, its been a long time since I worked for anyone other than myself so lets use Corbyns McDonalds example... https://www.indeed.co.uk/cmp/McDonald's/salaries?location=GB%2FENG The food attendant is on £7.76 per hour. Lets bump him to £10. The Team Trainer is on £8.29. Straight away you're gonna have to bump him to more than £10/hr. And thats before you take into account the cleaners who are probably on less than the food attendants - who will then want more than the £10/hr the cleaners will then be earning... I'm not arguing with you because its you, I'm arguing because its naive policy that will have a knock on to those higher paid. It will either increase the price of your burger in this case (most likely leading to loss of earnings/job cuts) or reduced hours/job cuts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GboroRam Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 50 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: The minimum wage is the most successful policy of your lifetime? Wow. Obviously Stive is forgetting the highly popular Cones Hotline from John Major's time in government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 11 minutes ago, maxjam said: I'm not arguing with you because its you, I'm arguing because its naive policy that will have a knock on to those higher paid. Again - exactly what people said about Blair's minimum wage. Didn't happen The problem with your argument is that it starts to sound a lot like you are advocating for never giving anyone a pay rise ever in case it upsets someone else on a different grade. I also think you're mindset is so fixed on equality somehow being a bad thing that you are losing sight of how society should value human life a lot more. As I said earlier in the thread - It's imperative for a functioning society that work pays enough to live on. Things have got so bad that our society no longer functions properly - leaving you literally arguing that we shouldn't pay people a living wage! How do you seriously envisage the alternative panning out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 2 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: The problem with your argument is that it starts to sound a lot like you are advocating for never giving anyone a pay rise ever in case it upsets someone else on a different grade. No you generally give everyone a rise at the same time, not just boost the lowest paid. What is the incentive to climb the ladder if you can get paid as much for being a food attendant as you can a Team Trainer? Its naive to think that those on or around £10 already won't demand more which will also escalate wages further up scale. 5 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: I also think you're mindset is so fixed on equality somehow being a bad thing that you are losing sight of how society should value human life a lot more. You can't have equality though, its idealistic. Where is the incentive to better yourself? Why would you go to work in a hot sweaty factory doing tough manual labour for the same wages as someone that comes and sweeps the floor later? There will always be inequality, its a driving factor for life. 8 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: As I said earlier in the thread - It's imperative for a functioning society that work pays enough to live on. Things have got so bad that our society no longer functions properly - leaving you literally arguing that we shouldn't pay people a living wage! I'd agree that we should pay people a living wage. Currently its around £9 with the mimumum wage lagging behind by around £1. You can't simply increase it to £10 overnight however without consequences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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