Carl Sagan Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 14 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: Tell it to Priti Patel who said yesterday that we would end freedom of movement - much to the excitement of the Brexiteers (who definitely aren't xenophobic) ?It would be ending the right to move to this country permanently without applying formally to do so. Brexiteers like remainers cut across all political views, social classes, ethnicities, etc. Most Brexiteers want the UK to become a global-facing country rather inward-looking at the EU which is an organization with very xenophobic policies, including paying African warlords and Erdogan billions of Euros to try to keep the EU white. If it weren't for the Brexit Party the EU Parliament would be pretty much all white. You quote a government minister from the most ethnically diverse Cabinet in the history of the UK. If you don't like xenophobia then good, but target your fire at the EU and not at Brexiteers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfie Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 28 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: Because nothing respects democracy more than a wishy washy compromise that no one likes or wants ? I quite like it and, if the alternative is months/years of further uncertainty, then I want it too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 28 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: Because nothing respects democracy more than a wishy washy compromise that no one likes or wants I'd like to understand why everyone keeps banging on about democracy - We don't live in a democracy - We live in a representative democracy - When the government abdicated their responsibility by giving us a referendum they were fundamentally weeing all over the British constitution and the great history of representative democracy which we've been exporting to the rest of the world for years I think we should start running everything like that though - All decisions about Derby County should be made based on a vote of the supporters - Who we sign, how we run the finances, who the manager plays at the weekend etc etc - Much better to have loads of people with limited information than let a few people with all the information decide the future of the club eh? Think we should do the same with the NHS too - In fact let's make doctors do a poll on twitter every time they need to give a diagnosis - We've all got access to NHS direct and WebMD so I'm pretty sure I can help decide what the right treatment options are for people with serious illness - What kinds of drugs does this patient who's recently had surgery need? Instagram story - Vote ? for No Treatment (and save the NHS some money) or ? to give them the painkilling drugs they probably need to keep doing their job Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 32 minutes ago, Carl Sagan said: ?It would be ending the right to move to this country permanently without applying formally to do so. Brexiteers like remainers cut across all political views, social classes, ethnicities, etc. Most Brexiteers want the UK to become a global-facing country rather inward-looking at the EU which is an organization with very xenophobic policies, including paying African warlords and Erdogan billions of Euros to try to keep the EU white. If it weren't for the Brexit Party the EU Parliament would be pretty much all white. You quote a government minister from the most ethnically diverse Cabinet in the history of the UK. If you don't like xenophobia then good, but target your fire at the EU and not at Brexiteers. Whilst I agree with some of your points (the European Parliament is embarrassingly white) there is an underlying reason which you're ignoring - MEP candidates are put forward by national parties and the increasing dominance of right-wing parties across Europe means more and more successful candidates are coming from nationalist (and often xenophobic/racist) parties - There's also the problem that the turnout at European elections across Europe has been falling over the last 3 decades - Meaning that more and more small, right wing parties are getting traction in the elections - People complain about not having a say in Europe but when given the chance to elect a representative hardly anyone shows up I'm not convinced that Most Brexiteers believe anything - I don't think you'd get more than about 10% of any group which believes in the same version of what they want - And I'd say Some rather than Most are global-facing - The vast majority seem to be insular in their approach - They're looking globally and looking to create protectionist policy to try and keep their own little garden green - Unfortunately I think not enough of them understand that we're a relative pipsqueak on the global stage these days and getting our individual influence is getting smaller and smaller every year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van der MoodHoover Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 38 minutes ago, cheron85 said: I'd like to understand why everyone keeps banging on about democracy - We don't live in a democracy - We live in a representative democracy - When the government abdicated their responsibility by giving us a referendum they were fundamentally weeing all over the British constitution and the great history of representative democracy which we've been exporting to the rest of the world for years I think we should start running everything like that though - All decisions about Derby County should be made based on a vote of the supporters - Who we sign, how we run the finances, who the manager plays at the weekend etc etc - Much better to have loads of people with limited information than let a few people with all the information decide the future of the club eh? Think we should do the same with the NHS too - In fact let's make doctors do a poll on twitter every time they need to give a diagnosis - We've all got access to NHS direct and WebMD so I'm pretty sure I can help decide what the right treatment options are for people with serious illness - What kinds of drugs does this patient who's recently had surgery need? Instagram story - Vote ? for No Treatment (and save the NHS some money) or ? to give them the painkilling drugs they probably need to keep doing their job Time to get to the important issues as to whether Tracey should be allowed tattoo removal surgery to help her to overcome her "mental anguish" now she is no longer going out with Dean...…..? ….or....why stop at a poll, we could run a TV popularity contest "I'm a Cancer Sufferer, Get me out of here"...….has a sort of ring to it..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 2 hours ago, cheron85 said: I think this could all be solved by a thought I've had for years - Make Northern Ireland an independent sovereign nation Sounds tricky, I think if that were possible without enraging Unionists it would have been done long ago. 1 hour ago, Van der MoodHoover said: that is true - was put in place as a condition of independence for the RoI I think so of itself is not affected. But it only applies to Irish citizens - who also have currently got the right to a)hold a UK passport b) vote in UK elections I think. The snags come because if RoI maintains free movement as a member of the EU, but we must have control of our borders, we will need a mechanism to spot non_RoI citizens entering the UK. ps I had to apply for an electronic visa to spend a week working in Canada this year. Easy to do (online), but its not strictly visa free. ? That can't be true. Not for anybody born after 1949 or not resident in UK for however long it takes to apply for citizenship anyway. At least if it is true then it's news to me. People from N.Ireland can have either a UK or Irish passport though, or both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1of4 Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 1 hour ago, Carl Sagan said: This totally misunderstands how a modern immigration system works. The world has largely had visa-free travel for decades. I count about 40 countries I've been to for work or play in the last decade, and only one of those (India) required a visa. Not Brazil, Mexico, Indonesia, Thailand, Japan, America, Canada, Hong Kong, South Korea, Australia, Norway, Iceland etc as well as the EU countries. The world has free movement for holidays and short work trips. If you're trying to work permanently in a country then this is policed by your employer. Not at any border. The common travel area between UK and Ireland has existed happily since 1923 and deal or no deal will easily continue to exist. How many of these countries borders can you cross without showing your passport. Something you don't need to do when crossing the border between NI and Eire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyinLiverpool Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 7 minutes ago, Highgate said: Sounds tricky, I think if that were possible without enraging Unionists it would have been done long ago. That can't be true. Not for anybody born after 1949 or not resident in UK for however long it takes to apply for citizenship anyway. At least if it is true then it's news to me. People from N.Ireland can have either a UK or Irish passport though, or both. It's not true. For a start, it's completely unnecessary on the grounds that an Irish passport is enough to grant you rights to (eg) work and vote in the UK. Plus, of course, an Irish passport will get you quickly into an EU country, whereas a British passport is about to become a pain in the arse. My wife could apply for a UK passport but why the hell would she want to do that when her Irish one is better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cstand Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 1 hour ago, cheron85 said: I'd like to understand why everyone keeps banging on about democracy - We don't live in a democracy - We live in a representative democracy - When the government abdicated their responsibility by giving us a referendum they were fundamentally weeing all over the British constitution and the great history of representative democracy which we've been exporting to the rest of the world for years I think we should start running everything like that though - All decisions about Derby County should be made based on a vote of the supporters - Who we sign, how we run the finances, who the manager plays at the weekend etc etc - Much better to have loads of people with limited information than let a few people with all the information decide the future of the club eh? Think we should do the same with the NHS too - In fact let's make doctors do a poll on twitter every time they need to give a diagnosis - We've all got access to NHS direct and WebMD so I'm pretty sure I can help decide what the right treatment options are for people with serious illness - What kinds of drugs does this patient who's recently had surgery need? Instagram story - Vote ? for No Treatment (and save the NHS some money) or ? to give them the painkilling drugs they probably need to keep doing their job We joined the EU with a referendum so was it 100% correct to have another referendum to decide if we wanted to stay in the EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyinLiverpool Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 13 minutes ago, cstand said: We joined the EU with a referendum so was it 100% correct to have another referendum to decide if we wanted to stay in the EU. No, we didn't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 52 minutes ago, Van der MoodHoover said: Time to get to the important issues as to whether Tracey should be allowed tattoo removal surgery to help her to overcome her "mental anguish" now she is no longer going out with Dean...…..? ….or....why stop at a poll, we could run a TV popularity contest "I'm a Cancer Sufferer, Get me out of here"...….has a sort of ring to it..... I was trying hard not to drop the C-bomb in my already slightly inflammatory rant! ? 23 minutes ago, Highgate said: Sounds tricky, I think if that were possible without enraging Unionists it would have been done long ago. Oh I completely agree - But I figure it wouldn't go down well with Nationalists either (and was mostly a flippant suggestion ?) 8 minutes ago, cstand said: We joined the EU with a referendum so was it 100% correct to have another referendum to decide if we wanted to stay in the EU. Yeh - And that was a bad move on the part of the government too - They should have done their bamfording job and taken the decision which was in the best interest of the country - Not allow any old muppet (me) with half an idea of what's going on a decision Any politician who comes out and says "well it's what the people want" shouldn't be a politician in our system and certainly not one in a position of authority - They should be telling us what the right answer is not asking us Essentially it's the same as when parents make kids eat their broccoli - Kids would eat sweets/crisps all day if they could and if you ask them what they want for dinner it's definitely pizza or chips or both - Parents are supposed to be the ones who say "No, you have to eat your unappealing broccoli because it's good for you" not just letting them eat chips all day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 2 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said: No, we didn't Correct - we'd already joined in 1972. It was a referendum about whether to continue membership that took place in 1975 Slightly incorrect facts are great when stated with confidence ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 Just now, cheron85 said: Any politician who comes out and says "well it's what the people want" shouldn't be a politician in our system and certainly not one in a position of authority - They should be telling us what the right answer is not asking us I get what you're implying but its a step along the road to a dictatorship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Ram for All Seasons Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 Question to Raab in Parliament from Dominic Grieve (Con): “He should be familiar that on Saturday such a special adviser who I believe is Mr Dominic Cummings told the Mail on Sunday that a number of honourable members were in receipt of foreign funding in order to draft what is known as the Benn act which is totally untrue. “He went on to say that this was going to be the subject of a government investigation – something which is also completely untrue because mercifully this country is not yet run as a police state by Mr Cummings.” We are now deep in Trump/Putin/Erdogan territory. State untruths and propaganda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cstand Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 47 minutes ago, Van der MoodHoover said: Time to get to the important issues as to whether Tracey should be allowed tattoo removal surgery to help her to overcome her "mental anguish" now she is no longer going out with Dean...…..? ….or....why stop at a poll, we could run a TV popularity contest "I'm a Cancer Sufferer, Get me out of here"...….has a sort of ring to it..... Or what about when should old people not be allowed to vote poll ...I am sure it would be very popular with ant-democratic remainers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GboroRam Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 4 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: Correct - we'd already joined in 1972. It was a referendum about whether to continue membership that took place in 1975 Slightly incorrect facts are great when stated with confidence ? Er, maybe we should follow what we did in 1975. We had a decision taken in 1972, then had a referendum to decide if we still wanted to go through with it. in 2016 we took the decision to leave (aided with a non-binding referendum). Maybe in 2019 we should have a referendum to decide if it's still what we want. Unfortunately I think the result would be still to leave, but with no answer how. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GboroRam Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 4 minutes ago, maxjam said: I get what you're implying but its a step along the road to a dictatorship. Nearest thing to a dictatorship is a PM who ignores the sovereign parliament, refuses to request an extension as they have told him to, prorogues parliament and lies to the queen in order to get what he wants. If you're worrying about democracy, I wouldn't be worrying about enabling politicians to do what they've been doing for centuries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 Just now, GboroRam said: Nearest thing to a dictatorship is a PM who ignores the sovereign parliament, refuses to request an extension as they have told him to, prorogues parliament and lies to the queen in order to get what he wants. If you're worrying about democracy, I wouldn't be worrying about enabling politicians to do what they've been doing for centuries. We could always have another election to see what 'the people' really want... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cstand Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 24 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: Correct - we'd already joined in 1972. It was a referendum about whether to continue membership that took place in 1975 Slightly incorrect facts are great when stated with confidence ? Not correct either it was not the EU in 1975 it was EC. My point is the same anyway ok we voted to remain in the EC in 1975. Since the EC has changed into the EU it 100% correct to have another vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van der MoodHoover Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 14 minutes ago, maxjam said: We could always have another election to see what 'the people' really want... Looks wide open - Farage has been tweeting that Johnson's new deal looks too much like May's so if we go down the route of extension followed by election, both left and right are split with Lib Dems being unequivocally "remain". So no Brexit-Tory pact and a 4-way split in parliament? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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