ariotofmyown Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 2 hours ago, cheron85 said: I'd like to understand why everyone keeps banging on about democracy - We don't live in a democracy - We live in a representative democracy - When the government abdicated their responsibility by giving us a referendum they were fundamentally weeing all over the British constitution and the great history of representative democracy which we've been exporting to the rest of the world for years I think we should start running everything like that though - All decisions about Derby County should be made based on a vote of the supporters - Who we sign, how we run the finances, who the manager plays at the weekend etc etc - Much better to have loads of people with limited information than let a few people with all the information decide the future of the club eh? Think we should do the same with the NHS too - In fact let's make doctors do a poll on twitter every time they need to give a diagnosis - We've all got access to NHS direct and WebMD so I'm pretty sure I can help decide what the right treatment options are for people with serious illness - What kinds of drugs does this patient who's recently had surgery need? Instagram story - Vote ? for No Treatment (and save the NHS some money) or ? to give them the painkilling drugs they probably need to keep doing their job Best post of the season (the season being the current parliamentary session that Johnson bravely tried to close down so he could try to help out the poor and the disadvantaged in his queens speech) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van der MoodHoover Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 4 minutes ago, cstand said: Not correct either it was not the EU in 1975 it was EC. My point is the same anyway ok we voted to remain in the EC in 1975. Since the EC has changed into the EU it 100% correct to have another vote. So you want to refight Maastricht? It's gone man, let it go...….the Tories gave it a free pass ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cstand Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 2 minutes ago, Van der MoodHoover said: So you want to refight Maastricht? It's gone man, let it go...….the Tories gave it a free pass ? No we the people won that fight in 2016. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Sagan Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 1 hour ago, 1of4 said: How many of these countries borders can you cross without showing your passport. Something you don't need to do when crossing the border between NI and Eire. Good point and it's obviously the norm that you do show passports, but thinking about it I was in Norway earlier this year and we went over the border into Finland and Russia without any border infrastructure and no passport checks. In the northern areas of Scandinavia it all seemed completely open, so it clearly can happen and including EU and non-EU countries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 43 minutes ago, maxjam said: I get what you're implying but its a step along the road to a dictatorship. Well not really - What we're currently nearing is a dictatorship - Where one man tries to destroy any possible other viewpoint than his own - Going as far as saying he will actively break the law of the country to get his own way I'm saying people who are elected by us to represent our best interests (key here) should do so - Instead of just echoing our opinions back at us (or in some cases yelling our opinions back at us) - They're supposed to work out what the best solution is and then educate us about why that's the best solution - And then if we disagree with their decisions we vote them out at the next election 42 minutes ago, cstand said: Or what about when should old people not be allowed to vote poll ...I am sure it would be very popular with ant-democratic remainers. When they retire and stop contributing to society ? (this is a facetious line meant only in jest and not to be taken seriously but I thought was borderline amusing) 36 minutes ago, maxjam said: We could always have another election to see what 'the people' really want... We'd have to have 5 million different options on the table and each of them would get between 5 and 20 votes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 43 minutes ago, cstand said: No we the people won that fight in 2016. Yeh, all 35% of you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van der MoodHoover Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 35 minutes ago, cstand said: No we the people won that fight in 2016. Aaah yes of course - the 52% of the voters. So aren't the 48% people as well? I trust you're not relegating them to some sub-species! If you were thoughtful with your language perhaps be more persuasive and heal the divisions - or are you one of those Sealed Knot types still fighting the Civil War 400 years later? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 26 minutes ago, cheron85 said: Well not really - What we're currently nearing is a dictatorship - Where one man tries to destroy any possible other viewpoint than his own - Going as far as saying he will actively break the law of the country to get his own way I'm saying people who are elected by us to represent our best interests (key here) should do so - Instead of just echoing our opinions back at us (or in some cases yelling our opinions back at us) - They're supposed to work out what the best solution is and then educate us about why that's the best solution - And then if we disagree with their decisions we vote them out at the next election Although if we were nearing a dictatorship we wouldn't have had a referendum followed by an election in which the main parties promised to deliver Brexit - the government is just trying to do what it said it would. Now you can argue what Brexit means has changed over the years but only one party has recently asked for another general election to give the people yet another say. The opposition declined and from what I read is seriously thinking about preparing an unelected caretaker government to further ignore the result of the referendum. Yet Boris is the dictator ? 26 minutes ago, cheron85 said: We'd have to have 5 million different options on the table and each of them would get between 5 and 20 votes... Nah, as I see it; Tories - leave with a deal if possible otherwise no deal Brexit Party - leave with no deal Lib Dems - remain Labour - god knows Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 36 minutes ago, Carl Sagan said: Good point and it's obviously the norm that you do show passports, but thinking about it I was in Norway earlier this year and we went over the border into Finland and Russia without any border infrastructure and no passport checks. In the northern areas of Scandinavia it all seemed completely open, so it clearly can happen and including EU and non-EU countries. You mean Schengen? Last year I travelled from Germany (EU) into Switzerland (non-EU) and didn't have to show any passport/papers because they are both in Schengen. Conversely travelled from Croatia (EU) to Montenegro (non-EU although they use the Euro?!) and it took about an hour to queue at the border I did get a 1L bottle of Makers Mark for £20 though in Zurich Airport duty free, so if that;'s the face of Brexit I'm all over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 2 minutes ago, maxjam said: Nah, as I see it; Tories - leave with a deal if possible otherwise no deal Brexit Party - leave with no deal Lib Dems - remain Labour - god knows A shame that you don't have the political nous to discern Labour's stance. It's actually the best one of the lot! Anyway - we digress here's the PM definitely not being racist Now imagine the reaction if Corbyn did the same thing to two army veterans in a line up... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 7 minutes ago, cheron85 said: Yeh, all 35% of you... Oh god, you're one of those people that counts every person who didn't vote for Brexit as a remainer aren't you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 16 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: A shame that you don't have the political nous to discern Labour's stance. It's actually the best one of the lot! Yes, to go against the wishes of how the majority of their traditional voter base voted. Then go back to the EU, negotiate a better deal then campaign against it. 3 years of Brexit has driven everyone insane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 1 minute ago, maxjam said: Although if we were nearing a dictatorship we wouldn't have had a referendum followed by an election in which the main parties promised to deliver Brexit - the government is just trying to do what it said it would. The referendum was 3 years ago and we've had 2 different PMs since then - I disagree with almost everything Cameron and May stood for but at least May actually went to the negotiating table to try and get a reasonable deal and tried to get something which was right for everyone Since he's been sworn in BoJo has sacked members of his party who disagreed with him, unlawfully shut down parliament, petulantly told the EU they have to have his deal and made it clear he will break the law and brexit with no deal 5 minutes ago, maxjam said: Now you can argue what Brexit means has changed over the years but only one party has recently asked for another general election to give the people yet another say. The opposition declined and from what I read is seriously thinking about preparing an unelected caretaker government to further ignore the result of the referendum. Yet Boris is the dictator ? A general election shouldn't ever be run on one issue - Which is what you're suggesting - The GENERAL election says it in the title - It should be about all issues and not just about one - BoJo wants to make it about brexit Also - Parliament are actually acting well within the laws of our country unlike BoJo - They've decided what is in our best interests is to put someone in charge who might actually listen to all sides Genuine question - Why do you think Brexit should be delivered entirely on your terms? What's wrong with a Brexit which works for everyone? Brexiteers who claim a "remainers brexit" seem to miss the point entirely - any form of brexit is against what remainers want! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 4 minutes ago, maxjam said: Oh god, you're one of those people that counts every person who didn't vote for Brexit as a remainer aren't you. Yes - Obviously I will ignore your picture and the fact that you haven't made any kind of useful or constructive point in your post and make one back Options were - Change or No Change In that scenario not voting is an acceptance of the status quo - Only 35% of registered voters wanted change Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 Just now, cheron85 said: Genuine question - Why do you think Brexit should be delivered entirely on your terms? What's wrong with a Brexit which works for everyone? Brexiteers who claim a "remainers brexit" seem to miss the point entirely - any form of brexit is against what remainers want! I never said what my terms were, I'm happy to agree to a deal that works for everyone - if you can tell me what that is. If we can get such a deal (highly unlikely) that would be option A. If not, leave with no deal as option B. Like it or not the next General Election will be all about Brexit, whether its concluded by then or otherwise. IMO a lot of current MPs will be out of work next time around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cstand Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 18 minutes ago, cheron85 said: Yeh, all 35% of you... Not my fault people cannot be bothered to vote. What percentage of the population decided to remain in the 1975? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 5 minutes ago, cheron85 said: Yes - Obviously I will ignore your picture and the fact that you haven't made any kind of useful or constructive point in your post and make one back Options were - Change or No Change In that scenario not voting is an acceptance of the status quo - Only 35% of registered voters wanted change Feel free to ignore the picture I posted, it was a cheap shot I'll admit. And feel free to ignore the fact that almost 52% of the biggest vote in UK history voted to leave. Never before has the result of any vote included those that couldn't be bothered to turn out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 30 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: Anyway - we digress here's the PM definitely not being racist Now imagine the reaction if Corbyn did the same thing to two army veterans in a line up... Undeniable proof, he should resign immediately! Why do people obsessed with race see racism everywhere? Is this the same guy that put together the most diverse cabinet in history? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 7 minutes ago, maxjam said: If we can get such a deal (highly unlikely) that would be option A. If not, leave with no deal as option B. I think no deal as option B is the lazy option - It's essentially a petulant "we play my way or I'm taking my ball and going home" option Also - Leaving with no deal is now illegal - So are you happy for the PM to break the law to do it? 5 minutes ago, maxjam said: Feel free to ignore the picture I posted, it was a cheap shot I'll admit. And feel free to ignore the fact that almost 52% of the biggest vote in UK history voted to leave. Never before has the result of any vote included those that couldn't be bothered to turn out. Never before has the government and parliament bottled their responsibility in such a way - Referendums (as I've mentioned previously) completely ignore the system of government we use and the constitutional responsibility of parliament When you vote in a general election you have a number of options and the parties each lay down a manifesto showcasing what voting for them means and what they will then do if they win - That is not the case for the referendum - The leave campaign didn't specify what Brexit would look like, what it would do, what it would cost us or how it would be implemented - Which is why no one for 3 years had been able to get it sorted I'd also like to note that even though I'm a staunch remainer, a fan of global society, think we should be working closer with everyone rather than pushing them away and consider the brexit vote an embarrassment - I actually think we need to get Brexit done now and get back to focusing on the fact that the Tories have been screwing the poor and vulnerable for the last 5/6 years - But it has to be a useful deal which doesn't screw people over, protects (as much as possible) our economy and allows us to still work with the rest of the world - No deal doesn't do that and it's genuinely worrying that people want that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 14 minutes ago, cheron85 said: I think no deal as option B is the lazy option - It's essentially a petulant "we play my way or I'm taking my ball and going home" option Also - Leaving with no deal is now illegal - So are you happy for the PM to break the law to do it? Is no deal the lazy option? I thought we were told 'a bad deal is worse than no deal'. If we can't negotiate a good deal (and it seems we can't) what, apart from remaining, are the alternatives? Leaving with no deal is only illegal because remainer parliament made it so - rather than use it as a bargaining chip or fall back position if the EU won't negotiate reasonably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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