The Politics Thread 2019

[AndyinLiverpool]

15 hours ago, maxjam said:

Is no deal the lazy option?   I thought we were told  'a bad deal is worse than no deal'.  If we can't negotiate a good deal (and it seems we can't) what, apart from remaining, are the alternatives?

Leaving with no deal is only illegal because remainer parliament made it so - rather than use it as a bargaining chip or fall back position if the EU won't negotiate reasonably.

We were told that by people who I wouldn't trust to tell me the time.

[Stive Pesley]

6 hours ago, 1of4 said:

Johnson in his speech to the conservative party conference, state that he and the tory party would respect the Good Friday Agreement.

How are they going to achieve that, while at the same time saying that as part of their proposed new agreement with the EU. That they would introduce customs checks, that will take place away from the border, on goods moved between NI and Eire, claiming that these checks would not affect the GFA.

Any check wether it's ten yards, ten miles or even one hundred miles away from the border, is still a check on what is crossing the border and would definitely violate the no border control section of the GFA.

Also - doesn't his proposal have a caveat that the Stormont Assembly have to ratify it? That's the Stormont Assembly that was dissolved 3 years ago and still isn't sitting. How is he supposed to get it ratified by a parliament that isn't sitting or even functional?

Other things confusing me this morning. I'm pretty sure when Theresa May was negotiating, the DUP were adamant that they would not accept a Withdrawal Agreement which left NI under different rules to the rest of the UK. But now she seems to be saying she is happy with BJ's suggested deal - even though it does exactly that?

A tangled web indeed

[GboroRam]

2 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

Also - doesn't his proposal have a caveat that the Stormont Assembly have to ratify it? That's the Stormont Assembly that was dissolved 3 years ago and still isn't sitting. How is he supposed to get it ratified by a parliament that isn't sitting or even functional?

Other things confusing me this morning. I'm pretty sure when Theresa May was negotiating, the DUP were adamant that they would not accept a Withdrawal Agreement which left NI under different rules to the rest of the UK. But now she seems to be saying she is happy with BJ's suggested deal - even though it does exactly that?

A tangled web indeed

The DUP are concerned about the DUP, not about the union or the people of NI.

[1of4]

28 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

Also - doesn't his proposal have a caveat that the Stormont Assembly have to ratify it? That's the Stormont Assembly that was dissolved 3 years ago and still isn't sitting. How is he supposed to get it ratified by a parliament that isn't sitting or even functional?

Other things confusing me this morning. I'm pretty sure when Theresa May was negotiating, the DUP were adamant that they would not accept a Withdrawal Agreement which left NI under different rules to the rest of the UK. But now she seems to be saying she is happy with BJ's suggested deal - even though it does exactly that?

A tangled web indeed

Maybe the DUP are anticipating an other nice little bribe of a few billion pounds from the conservatives.

[Stive Pesley]

13 hours ago, Montgolfier said:

Do you have an objection to a united Ireland or an independent Scotland? If so, why? After all, both countries were originally subjugated under the heel of the English. Why not re-name the UK the English Empire and be done with it?

Another Brexit puzzle.
The UK is an economic union between 4 countries with a heavy power base in London which distorts the decision making.
It's surely hard to argue to leave the EU but claim not to support the breakup of the UK too. It's largely the same set of arguments

I guess it would mean too many people having to change their Union Jack British bulldog avatars?

[AndyinLiverpool]

18 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

Another Brexit puzzle.
The UK is an economic union between 4 countries with a heavy power base in London which distorts the decision making.
It's surely hard to argue to leave the EU but claim not to support the breakup of the UK too. It's largely the same set of arguments

I guess it would mean too many people having to change their Union Jack British bulldog avatars?

One of the great contradictions of nationalist politics. Where does it all stop? It depends entirely on how one defines the nation. Of course, British nationalists would see no contradiction between asserting nationalism in the face of a larger organisation such as the EU whilst asserting that Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales remain part of the 'nation' of the UK. That's because they define their nation in those terms. That way they can ignore / pour scorn / defy etc nationalists from Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. The same, shared guiding principles of all of them cause them to be diametrically opposed. Unity is division.

Likewise, an independent Scotland under such conditions would struggle to justify denying independence to Shetland.

[cstand]

2 hours ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

One of the great contradictions of nationalist politics. Where does it all stop? It depends entirely on how one defines the nation. Of course, British nationalists would see no contradiction between asserting nationalism in the face of a larger organisation such as the EU whilst asserting that Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales remain part of the 'nation' of the UK. That's because they define their nation in those terms. That way they can ignore / pour scorn / defy etc nationalists from Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. The same, shared guiding principles of all of them cause them to be diametrically opposed. Unity is division.

Likewise, an independent Scotland under such conditions would struggle to justify denying independence to Shetland.

You forgot to mention the republic of Liverpool. 

[Comrade 86]

11 hours ago, cstand said:

You forgot to mention the republic of Liverpool. 

On 02/10/2019 at 13:05, Carl Sagan said:

This totally misunderstands how a modern immigration system works. The world has largely had visa-free travel for decades. I count about 40 countries I've been to for work or play in the last decade, and only one of those (India) required a visa. Not Brazil, Mexico, Indonesia, Thailand, Japan, America, Canada, Hong Kong, South Korea, Australia, Norway, Iceland etc as well as the EU countries. 

Not strictly true. Some of those have entry requirements that are visas in all but name, the US and Canada being two such examples. 

[Joe.]

8 hours ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

Not strictly true. Some of those have entry requirements that are visas in all but name, the US and Canada being two such examples. 

To be fair a lot of them are visa on arrival, I've done quite a lot of traveling and I've never had to apply for a visa for anywhere except Australia/new Zealand And that was only because I was working

[Stive Pesley]

Let's just be honest - we're an island nation that has always had control of our borders. The EU has nothing to do with who we let in and who we don't

We have our own visa policy and a common travel area with Ireland, Isle of Man and the Channel Islands. Pretty much all developed nations have visa-free visitor travel here (for stays of up to 6 months).  We have pretty stringent visa requirements for most of Africa and Asia

Brexit will change nothing. If people want to come here legally and then work here and/or stay here illegally - they will continue to do so,

It's a false narrative put out by the likes of Farage and his bigoted ilk that appeals to the jingo-istic and the xenophobic who believe that because one Polish guy offered them drugs once, the country is awash with foreign criminals.

We already have control of our borders - we just choose a particular way of policing them. None of which is forced on us by EU membership

[SSD]

A Banksy canvas painting has sold for £9 million at auction. Still relevant 10 years later. I love this. Top work.

 

 

[cstand]

1 hour ago, SchtivePesley said:

Let's just be honest - we're an island nation that has always had control of our borders. The EU has nothing to do with who we let in and who we don't

We have our own visa policy and a common travel area with Ireland, Isle of Man and the Channel Islands. Pretty much all developed nations have visa-free visitor travel here (for stays of up to 6 months).  We have pretty stringent visa requirements for most of Africa and Asia

Brexit will change nothing. If people want to come here legally and then work here and/or stay here illegally - they will continue to do so,

It's a false narrative put out by the likes of Farage and his bigoted ilk that appeals to the jingo-istic and the xenophobic who believe that because one Polish guy offered them drugs once, the country is awash with foreign criminals.

We already have control of our borders - we just choose a particular way of policing them. None of which is forced on us by EU membership

Wages up due the possibility of less people wanting to work in the UK from abroad since 2016 great to see Brexit working for ordinary people.

[cstand]

12 hours ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

Not strictly true. Some of those have entry requirements that are visas in all but name, the US and Canada being two such examples. 

 

23 hours ago, cstand said:

You forgot to mention the republic of Liverpool. 

Apologies I meant the People's Republic of Liverpool 

[Stive Pesley]

12 minutes ago, cstand said:

Wages up due the possibility of less people wanting to work in the UK from abroad since 2016 great to see Brexit working for ordinary people.

I don't really understand what you're trying to say here, nor do I see how it relates to what I posted. But it probably doesn't matter 

[Eddie]

On 03/10/2019 at 09:04, SchtivePesley said:

Also - doesn't his proposal have a caveat that the Stormont Assembly have to ratify it? That's the Stormont Assembly that was dissolved 3 years ago and still isn't sitting. How is he supposed to get it ratified by a parliament that isn't sitting or even functional?

Other things confusing me this morning. I'm pretty sure when Theresa May was negotiating, the DUP were adamant that they would not accept a Withdrawal Agreement which left NI under different rules to the rest of the UK. But now she seems to be saying she is happy with BJ's suggested deal - even though it does exactly that?

A tangled web indeed

The biggest problem facing the NI Assembly is the presence of the "Petition of Concern" which gives one side or the other a veto.

Laudable in intention, perhaps, to prevent the introduction of prejudicial legislation which might benefit one side of the sectarian divide at the expense of the other, it effectively allows the DUP to block anything they don't want to happen - and similarly by Sinn Fein.

Of course, seeing as Stormont is not sitting at the moment, the DUP will get what they want all the time anyway - provided their palms are crossed with sufficient pieces of silver dropping from the Magic Money Tree.

[Eddie]

17 minutes ago, cstand said:

Wages up due the possibility of less people wanting to work in the UK from abroad since 2016 great to see Brexit working for ordinary people.

Speculation, but if that's what you wish to believe, then continue to do so.

[WhiteHorseRam]

48 minutes ago, cstand said:

Wages up due the possibility of less people wanting to work in the UK from abroad since 2016 great to see Brexit working for ordinary people.

Good luck with that.

[Comrade 86]

48 minutes ago, cstand said:

 

Apologies I meant the People's Republic of Liverpool 

[GboroRam]

1 hour ago, cstand said:

Wages up due the possibility of less people wanting to work in the UK from abroad since 2016 great to see Brexit working for ordinary people.

If only there was a mechanism of improving the pay of those who are lowest paid in the country. Maybe some sort of legal minimum wage. The government could then set the level at a fair figure, rather than encouraging business to drive down pay and exploiting those who most suffer.

[Eddie]

The government have just submitted papers suggesting that if the UK and the EU cannot strike a deal in the next 2 weeks, then the PM will write to the EU requesting another extension.

Anyone got a ditch handy?

/asking for a Prime Minister