If your reading this Mel.........

[ilkleyram]

2 hours ago, Millenniumram said:

Never said it was my argument... just there is an argument for it. Personally, I blame our clueless recruitment team for the mess we’re currently in.

This is not aimed (only) at you Millennium but at those from Ramage upwards who make similar comments about our recruitment team. Clueless is one of the politer descriptions being thrown about.

Let me say at the outset that I have no inside connection with our club. A fan simple if not pure. But this constant barrage of criticism aimed at a recruitment team, most of whom we don't know and mostly by people outside the game, seems to me to be unfair. They are a bunch of people unable to reply, and who will never be able to do so in any detail, for all kinds of reasons but prime amongst them confidentiality owed to clubs, players and others. We fans have no idea what they do, who they identify and the restrictions under which they operate. We have no idea whether we, or indeed anyone else, could actually do any better.

We know about players in the vast majority of cases after the event. When they've come, or not and we get to hear gossip about it; when they've played well, or not.  The recruitment team have to operate ahead of time, ahead of transfer windows and, in Derby's case, sometimes ahead of the appointment of the manager that they're going to be playing for. And they have to work with external forces way beyond their control - including, out of a long, long list, FFP, agents, player wages, player desire to play for a particular club/manager, kids schools, wags views about living in the East Midlands or apart from their partner, Mel or Steven Pearce's or the manager's ability and willingness to spend, age, the willingness of their current club to sell.  For all we know they have identified 20 of the country's top young prospects and been turned down because of one or all of the above reasons.  What if a striker playing for Exeter City was identified and approached by the recruitment team but turned us down because his girlfriend didn't want to move to Derby.  Does that count as a failure? What if said striker wanted £20k a week but Steven Pearce said no and he went elsewhere. Is that a failure by our recruitment team?

Our recruitment team have identified Shinnie - not bad for a free - Bielik, brought in Bogle and Marriott and others and in time gone by Keogh and others. They've also had players who haven't played so well for us but perhaps the limiting factors have been outside their control.

I have no idea whether our recruitment is or isn't the problem and I would suggest nor does anyone outside the club. All of our current players - every single one of them - have had periods in their Rams career when they've played well (some periods shorter than others), when most of us have thought 'they're doing OK'.  Collectively they haven't been able to put a consistent spell of playing well over 90 minutes over several weeks for several managers and several years now.  Maybe that's not only the recruitment team's fault.

Happy Christmas, and peace to all men (and women)

[hintonsboots]

I think the recruitment team should definitely have a look at Archie Collins, ironically at Exeter City. Hear they are heading down to Devon on Boxing Day.

[Brammie Steve]

Even going back to the '70s, when Clough and Taylor left Derby, we did not have a huge black hole in the team itself and even built on their foundations.

A few brilliant buys (Lee and George) and we had a second League Championship.

Once the Dynamic Duo took over at the City Ground many of our finest players went up the A51 to form the nucleus of a team destined to lift the European Cup twice.

Now in 2019 we found ourselves with a rapidly emerging super manager and several young loanees who have rapidly proved their worth back at their parent clubs.

Cocu needs to capitalise on what he has, not on what the Rams have lost.

Sibley, Knight, Bogle, Whittaker, Bielik, Rooney, Martin, etc. The foundation for a decent team is here. A huge dose of team spirit and self belief is needed.

Players such as Lawrence need to be prepared to pass to others when going forward.

Defenders need to take the pressure off the goalie.

PS We are allowed to score from corners, free-kicks and dead ball situations and a game lasts two halves and 90+ minutes.

[europia]

Not much to build on at the moment. Exposing young academy players into a team with a losing mentality isn't a great idea, but perhaps the manager has no choice but to do so. 

[RamNut]

1 hour ago, europia said:

Not much to build on at the moment. Exposing young academy players into a team with a losing mentality isn't a great idea, but perhaps the manager has no choice but to do so. 

I don’t see a team with a losing mentality. They all worked their chocolate coated Brazil’s off v Reading.ok they lost but it wasn’t due to their mentality.

and the opportunity to play didn’t do Jason Knight any harm. I’m still buzzing from his performance. I honestly believe that the manager is missing a trick. His reluctance to play sibley is somewhat reminiscent of his previous reluctance to play shinnie or Martin. 

Its an easy job Phillip. You are being encouraged to promote the best of the academy graduates, so do it. If you win you’ll be lauded. If you lose there will be tolerance. If you ignore the best of the young players and continue to play senior players who are struggling for form - (perhaps having had their heads filled with 15 different tactical systems) - then you are missing a trick. 

 

[Day]

19 hours ago, ilkleyram said:

This is not aimed (only) at you Millennium but at those from Ramage upwards who make similar comments about our recruitment team. Clueless is one of the politer descriptions being thrown about.

Let me say at the outset that I have no inside connection with our club. A fan simple if not pure. But this constant barrage of criticism aimed at a recruitment team, most of whom we don't know and mostly by people outside the game, seems to me to be unfair. They are a bunch of people unable to reply, and who will never be able to do so in any detail, for all kinds of reasons but prime amongst them confidentiality owed to clubs, players and others. We fans have no idea what they do, who they identify and the restrictions under which they operate. We have no idea whether we, or indeed anyone else, could actually do any better.

We know about players in the vast majority of cases after the event. When they've come, or not and we get to hear gossip about it; when they've played well, or not.  The recruitment team have to operate ahead of time, ahead of transfer windows and, in Derby's case, sometimes ahead of the appointment of the manager that they're going to be playing for. And they have to work with external forces way beyond their control - including, out of a long, long list, FFP, agents, player wages, player desire to play for a particular club/manager, kids schools, wags views about living in the East Midlands or apart from their partner, Mel or Steven Pearce's or the manager's ability and willingness to spend, age, the willingness of their current club to sell.  For all we know they have identified 20 of the country's top young prospects and been turned down because of one or all of the above reasons.  What if a striker playing for Exeter City was identified and approached by the recruitment team but turned us down because his girlfriend didn't want to move to Derby.  Does that count as a failure? What if said striker wanted £20k a week but Steven Pearce said no and he went elsewhere. Is that a failure by our recruitment team?

Our recruitment team have identified Shinnie - not bad for a free - Bielik, brought in Bogle and Marriott and others and in time gone by Keogh and others. They've also had players who haven't played so well for us but perhaps the limiting factors have been outside their control.

I have no idea whether our recruitment is or isn't the problem and I would suggest nor does anyone outside the club. All of our current players - every single one of them - have had periods in their Rams career when they've played well (some periods shorter than others), when most of us have thought 'they're doing OK'.  Collectively they haven't been able to put a consistent spell of playing well over 90 minutes over several weeks for several managers and several years now.  Maybe that's not only the recruitment team's fault.

Happy Christmas, and peace to all men (and women)

Excellent post. Thank you. 

[Mick Brolly]

19 hours ago, ilkleyram said:

This is not aimed (only) at you Millennium but at those from Ramage upwards who make similar comments about our recruitment team. Clueless is one of the politer descriptions being thrown about.

Let me say at the outset that I have no inside connection with our club. A fan simple if not pure. But this constant barrage of criticism aimed at a recruitment team, most of whom we don't know and mostly by people outside the game, seems to me to be unfair. They are a bunch of people unable to reply, and who will never be able to do so in any detail, for all kinds of reasons but prime amongst them confidentiality owed to clubs, players and others. We fans have no idea what they do, who they identify and the restrictions under which they operate. We have no idea whether we, or indeed anyone else, could actually do any better.

We know about players in the vast majority of cases after the event. When they've come, or not and we get to hear gossip about it; when they've played well, or not.  The recruitment team have to operate ahead of time, ahead of transfer windows and, in Derby's case, sometimes ahead of the appointment of the manager that they're going to be playing for. And they have to work with external forces way beyond their control - including, out of a long, long list, FFP, agents, player wages, player desire to play for a particular club/manager, kids schools, wags views about living in the East Midlands or apart from their partner, Mel or Steven Pearce's or the manager's ability and willingness to spend, age, the willingness of their current club to sell.  For all we know they have identified 20 of the country's top young prospects and been turned down because of one or all of the above reasons.  What if a striker playing for Exeter City was identified and approached by the recruitment team but turned us down because his girlfriend didn't want to move to Derby.  Does that count as a failure? What if said striker wanted £20k a week but Steven Pearce said no and he went elsewhere. Is that a failure by our recruitment team?

Our recruitment team have identified Shinnie - not bad for a free - Bielik, brought in Bogle and Marriott and others and in time gone by Keogh and others. They've also had players who haven't played so well for us but perhaps the limiting factors have been outside their control.

I have no idea whether our recruitment is or isn't the problem and I would suggest nor does anyone outside the club. All of our current players - every single one of them - have had periods in their Rams career when they've played well (some periods shorter than others), when most of us have thought 'they're doing OK'.  Collectively they haven't been able to put a consistent spell of playing well over 90 minutes over several weeks for several managers and several years now.  Maybe that's not only the recruitment team's fault.

Happy Christmas, and peace to all men (and women)

You're part of the recruitment team aren't you i knew it ? happy Christmas ? 

[Tyler Durden]

19 hours ago, ilkleyram said:

This is not aimed (only) at you Millennium but at those from Ramage upwards who make similar comments about our recruitment team. Clueless is one of the politer descriptions being thrown about.

Let me say at the outset that I have no inside connection with our club. A fan simple if not pure. But this constant barrage of criticism aimed at a recruitment team, most of whom we don't know and mostly by people outside the game, seems to me to be unfair. They are a bunch of people unable to reply, and who will never be able to do so in any detail, for all kinds of reasons but prime amongst them confidentiality owed to clubs, players and others. We fans have no idea what they do, who they identify and the restrictions under which they operate. We have no idea whether we, or indeed anyone else, could actually do any better.

We know about players in the vast majority of cases after the event. When they've come, or not and we get to hear gossip about it; when they've played well, or not.  The recruitment team have to operate ahead of time, ahead of transfer windows and, in Derby's case, sometimes ahead of the appointment of the manager that they're going to be playing for. And they have to work with external forces way beyond their control - including, out of a long, long list, FFP, agents, player wages, player desire to play for a particular club/manager, kids schools, wags views about living in the East Midlands or apart from their partner, Mel or Steven Pearce's or the manager's ability and willingness to spend, age, the willingness of their current club to sell.  For all we know they have identified 20 of the country's top young prospects and been turned down because of one or all of the above reasons.  What if a striker playing for Exeter City was identified and approached by the recruitment team but turned us down because his girlfriend didn't want to move to Derby.  Does that count as a failure? What if said striker wanted £20k a week but Steven Pearce said no and he went elsewhere. Is that a failure by our recruitment team?

Our recruitment team have identified Shinnie - not bad for a free - Bielik, brought in Bogle and Marriott and others and in time gone by Keogh and others. They've also had players who haven't played so well for us but perhaps the limiting factors have been outside their control.

I have no idea whether our recruitment is or isn't the problem and I would suggest nor does anyone outside the club. All of our current players - every single one of them - have had periods in their Rams career when they've played well (some periods shorter than others), when most of us have thought 'they're doing OK'.  Collectively they haven't been able to put a consistent spell of playing well over 90 minutes over several weeks for several managers and several years now.  Maybe that's not only the recruitment team's fault.

Happy Christmas, and peace to all men (and women)

I think if you were to hold your hands up you would see that our recruitment team haven't covered themselves in glory over the past few years, whether they are deserved of criticism is a point for discussion but given the high profile nature of their job it quite rightly warrants close scrutiny. 

Butterfield, Johnson, Anya - paying massively inflated transfers fees and handing out huge extended contracts I rest my case. Now that might have been driven by Mel Morris so again maybe unfair but come on we haven't half made a mess of things over the past few seasons. 

Anyway Happy Christmas, recriminations aren't going to solve anything we just need to reflect on our mistakes and learn from them 

[angieram]

... have a great Christmas - and thank you for all you do for our club.

All Derby aren't we? 

[richinspain]

18 hours ago, Brummie Steve said:

Even going back to the '70s, when Clough and Taylor left Derby, we did not have a huge black hole in the team itself and even built on their foundations.

A few brilliant buys (Lee and George) and we had a second League Championship.

Once the Dynamic Duo took over at the City Ground many of our finest players went up the A51 to form the nucleus of a team destined to lift the European Cup twice.

Now in 2019 we found ourselves with a rapidly emerging super manager and several young loanees who have rapidly proved their worth back at their parent clubs.

Cocu needs to capitalise on what he has, not on what the Rams have lost.

Sibley, Knight, Bogle, Whittaker, Bielik, Rooney, Martin, etc. The foundation for a decent team is here. A huge dose of team spirit and self belief is needed.

Players such as Lawrence need to be prepared to pass to others when going forward.

Defenders need to take the pressure off the goalie.

PS We are allowed to score from corners, free-kicks and dead ball situations and a game lasts two halves and 90+ minutes.

 I agree entirely with your post, I will however make a comment regarding the highlighted part. I would hope that Cocu is indeed working with what he has got and not on what the team have lost (loan players, not injured).

 The players you mention are indeed the foundation of a decent team, however there is an awful lot of youth there. I think that Cocu has handled the youth very well up till now. Some complain that Knight was in the team and then got excluded completely. Maybe Cocu knows that in general this is the best for them? Knight played an absolute blinder on Saturday, very reminiscent of his -23 performances. Perhaps letting him take a break completely has let him see what he needs to do to progress? Maybe also Sibley needed those few more months to get to a similar stage to Knight with regards the first team? He is I believe only 16?

 Hopefully Cocu will bring all of the youth through, his record at PSV suggests that he is capable. If he only manages to make half of the current crop of youth players regular first teamers then that would still be 6 or 7 players currently under 21 with only Bielik having cost money. Add the experience of Rooney, Martin, Shinnie for example then as you say the foundation is there, it will just need time and more importantly patience.

[RamNut]

The problem with recruitment is self-evident.

We have signed a lot of players with little or no resale value - namely Johnson, butterfield, Blackman, nugent, Davies, Malone, Lawrence, huddlestone, jozefzoon, anya, wisdom etc etc. We pay fees that we can’t really afford. Even now I would say that the bielik signing is not easy to justify within the context of ffp. Nor was the waghorn fee given his age.

all of our income and all of our max ffp loss goes on day to day running costs and salaries. Ok we also raised income through the sales of Hendricks, ince, and vydra, but recruitment losses were ultimately funded by giving up our ground. A lot of people think that was a clever move. Some of us harbour doubts as to whether it is ultimately very good at all for the club to have lost ownership of its own stadium. It’s certainly highly debatable whether sustainability rules should have ultimately resulted in such an unsustainable strategy. 

Whenever we sign players for modest fees, that is ultimately to be applauded. Martin, Roos, Holmes, Evans, and shinnie show smart recruitment because it is financially sustainable. Whether they all work we’ll have to wait and see. Add the likes of Bogle, lowe, Buchanan, knight, sibley, bird, Whittaker, and one or two others from the academy and we are half way there. It would have been good to see us give an opportunity to Elsnik and Thomas too. 

Its not sexy but that’s the financial reality of a championship club without parachute money. Preston have operated within sensible limits on transfers. They buy players from Ireland and the lower leagues etc. They re-cycle players who couldn’t break through at big clubs. They are a good model. I hope that we learn to operate within similar limits. 

 

[SKRam]

On 24/12/2019 at 11:56, Millenniumram said:

Playing Devils advocate, Lampard was employed, and we have been left with 2-3 years worth of a mess to sort out because we didn’t sign any decent perm players.

See what I did there....proper perm

player

[SKRam]

5 hours ago, RamNut said:

I don’t see a team with a losing mentality. They all worked their chocolate coated Brazil’s off v Reading.ok they lost but it wasn’t due to their mentality.

and the opportunity to play didn’t do Jason Knight any harm. I’m still buzzing from his performance. I honestly believe that the manager is missing a trick. His reluctance to play sibley is somewhat reminiscent of his previous reluctance to play shinnie or Martin. 

Its an easy job Phillip. You are being encouraged to promote the best of the academy graduates, so do it. If you win you’ll be lauded. If you lose there will be tolerance. If you ignore the best of the young players and continue to play senior players who are struggling for form - (perhaps having had their heads filled with 15 different tactical systems) - then you are missing a trick. 

 

POTD 

[Finch]

Had enough of the b-lls--t. The whole set up is dire.Time for a reboot.

[ColonelBlimp]

Can someone edit the title? Poor grammar, ta.

[Anag Ram]

Stick with Cocu. 

Allow him to get in a few with the right attitude and passing ability. 

Mix youth with experience and let the manager achieve his objectives. 

Get rid of those players who do not have the mental aptitude for Championship football. 

[Gritty]

On 24/12/2019 at 17:10, Brummie Steve said:

Even going back to the '70s, when Clough and Taylor left Derby, we did not have a huge black hole in the team itself and even built on their foundations.

A few brilliant buys (Lee and George) and we had a second League Championship.

Once the Dynamic Duo took over at the City Ground many of our finest players went up the A51 to form the nucleus of a team destined to lift the European Cup twice.

Now in 2019 we found ourselves with a rapidly emerging super manager and several young loanees who have rapidly proved their worth back at their parent clubs.

Cocu needs to capitalise on what he has, not on what the Rams have lost.

Sibley, Knight, Bogle, Whittaker, Bielik, Rooney, Martin, etc. The foundation for a decent team is here. A huge dose of team spirit and self belief is needed.

Players such as Lawrence need to be prepared to pass to others when going forward.

Defenders need to take the pressure off the goalie.

PS We are allowed to score from corners, free-kicks and dead ball situations and a game lasts two halves and 90+ minutes.

Our team is currently comprised of some average champ players, some below average champ players, one ex superstar (Rooney) and some very promising youngsters (I include Lowe and Bogle in this group).

How we do in the next few years will depend on how the youngsters turn out

[gfs1ram]

8 hours ago, richinspain said:

 I agree entirely with your post, I will however make a comment regarding the highlighted part. I would hope that Cocu is indeed working with what he has got and not on what the team have lost (loan players, not injured).

 The players you mention are indeed the foundation of a decent team, however there is an awful lot of youth there. I think that Cocu has handled the youth very well up till now. Some complain that Knight was in the team and then got excluded completely. Maybe Cocu knows that in general this is the best for them? Knight played an absolute blinder on Saturday, very reminiscent of his -23 performances. Perhaps letting him take a break completely has let him see what he needs to do to progress? Maybe also Sibley needed those few more months to get to a similar stage to Knight with regards the first team? He is I believe only 16?

 Hopefully Cocu will bring all of the youth through, his record at PSV suggests that he is capable. If he only manages to make half of the current crop of youth players regular first teamers then that would still be 6 or 7 players currently under 21 with only Bielik having cost money. Add the experience of Rooney, Martin, Shinnie for example then as you say the foundation is there, it will just need time and more importantly patience.

Sibley was 18 in September. 

[Rosythram]

Mel

Please stick with our present managerial team, I know at times it doesn’t look good but my belief is that it will come good.

Lets put this season down to character building and from here learn who has the mental and physical attributes to succeed and who doesn’t.

Merry Christmas and a huge thank you for you continued involvement.

 

[richinspain]

52 minutes ago, gfs1ram said:

Sibley was 18 in September. 

My mistake. The statement still stands for me though that he probably has had to wait because Cocu felt that he needed a little more time.