valleyram Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 He was dreadful at rangers but playing in a bad team but he's no better than what we have unless I never saw something up here that he has Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jourdan Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 5 minutes ago, Simsy said: Clearly he was terrible at rangers. Very sceptical on this one. Doesn't look like an improvement to the team. need to land that high quality Ince replacement! Let's be realistic here. How many players at 22 years of age are able to perform consistently at first team level? Typically, any player of that age will have good spells and bad spells, especially if they are farmed out on loan every six months. You mention Ince. He hasn't been brilliant at every club he's played for, has he? For every Derby or Blackpool, there is a club where he didn't make any impression at all. It's the same for Toral. Just like Ince, he needs to find a club that is a good fit for him. In our position, if we are looking to replace Ince and Hughes and we are being realistic about it, Toral is the type of signing we are likely to make. A player who might seem to be a downgrade, a player who might not get people dancing on the ceiling at first mention but also a player who can be coached and developed to reach that level or better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramos Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 1 hour ago, Paul71 said: At the where now? Used my first ever angry face to display my utter dismay at the use of that name. I will never drink a bottle again. (Not that I ever have) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringerBell Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 27 minutes ago, cheron85 said: The definition of skeptical is "having doubts or reservations" - Tell me that isn't a negative mindset And I think the words I used were fairly clear - I stated that they were the exact same thing - Both sides here are saying "we will make up our mind based on what we see" - It's just that the mindset of one is negative and the mindset of the other is positive @Highgate was saying that we had "blind faith" - Which is not the same as the things we are saying Doubts or reservations based on......? A negative mindset? Not at all, it's doubts or reservations based on observable and measurable information. Or lack thereof. Being sceptical about, say, religion (the topic I'd argue is most associated with scepticism) does not make a person have a negative attitude. As editor of Skeptic magazine Michael Shermer will tell you, scepticism is about coming to the truth rather than automatically not accepting things as true. Flat earthers have faith the earth is flat, sceptics are sceptical about claims of a flat earth and arrive at a truth that it is round. Those two outlooks are not opposite ends of the same mentality, they are completely different. Someone has said they are putting faith in a signing just because it's Rowett making that signing. The 'until proven otherwise' part means they are open to changing opinion so I think 'blind faith' is a bit much. It would appear they are open to seeing things differently based on new info. But they are going along with an opinion on player just becausr it's a Rowett player. Whereas Highgate is saying he has no opinion on the player just because it's a Rowett player as he has not made his mind up about Rowett. On a forum I'd rather discuss the merits of the player in all honesty. If we can't do that and just say well "I don't know as much about him as Rowett so if Rowett rates him then get him in" thats faith being shown in Rowett. It's not like Rowett hasn't done well as an manager so far though and I think 'blind faith' is a bit much. But I think the naming of this mentality as 'blind faith' towards Rowett is more accurate than others naming Highgate as being unsupportive or negative tbh. Being sceptical is not being either of these things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringerBell Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 21 minutes ago, cheron85 said: Sorry! I just used the same as @StringerBell (attempts to shift the blame ) Autocorrect can be blamed. I've just typed out a response spelling it correctly, you'll have to have faith I didn't see this post until after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Sheriff Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 7 minutes ago, Jourdan said: Let's be realistic here. How many players at 22 years of age are able to perform consistently at first team level? Typically, any player of that age will have good spells and bad spells, especially if they are farmed out on loan every six months. You mention Ince. He hasn't been brilliant at every club he's played for, has he? For every Derby or Blackpool, there is a club where he didn't make any impression at all. It's the same for Toral. Just like Ince, he needs to find a club that is a good fit for him. In our position, if we are looking to replace Ince and Hughes and we are being realistic about it, Toral is the type of signing we are likely to make. A player who might seem to be a downgrade, a player who might not get people dancing on the ceiling at first mention but also a player who can be coached and developed to reach that level or better. Ince averages 1 goal in every 2.6games. That's exceptional for a winger. That's all career not just derby. Not time to take a risk on more potential deadwood that we are already struggling to offload. Especially when we are maybe just a couple great signings away to challenge top 2. if we hadn't had a bloated squad and we still had ince I would be more positive about this potential signing. If he's coming as a no.10 I would rather give vydra wieman butterfield maybe even Johnson a chance there before gambling on another player Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Kevin Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 25 minutes ago, Simsy said: Clearly he was terrible at rangers. Very sceptical on this one. Doesn't look like an improvement to the team. need to land that high quality Ince replacement! Would Lawrence do the trick ?Genuine question .The reason I ask is he is a realistic target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Sheriff Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 1 minute ago, King Kevin said: Would Lawrence do the trick ?Genuine question .The reason I ask is he is a realistic target. I think Lawrence has more about him. Ipswich fans highly rate him and even a Blackburn mate of mine said he was good. (No team seem to say he's ****) So I would rather Lawrence yes. Although as I said in the Lawrence thread originally he wouldn't excite me because he's only had 1 great season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PistoldPete2 Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 This guy doesn't sound anything special, maybe an option on the bench. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derbados Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 Good player Toral, watched him a couple of times at Birmingham when I was working there. always reminded me of Idiakez, technically very, very good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nogbad van 50 Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 23 minutes ago, Simsy said: Ince averages 1 goal in every 2.6games. That's exceptional for a winger. That's all career not just derby. Not time to take a risk on more potential deadwood that we are already struggling to offload. Especially when we are maybe just a couple great signings away to challenge top 2. if we hadn't had a bloated squad and we still had ince I would be more positive about this potential signing. If he's coming as a no.10 I would rather give vydra wieman butterfield maybe even Johnson a chance there before gambling on another player 68 goals in 226 Premiership and Championship games is one in every 3 games.Still a good return though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GermanRam Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 Doesn't sound too bad: https://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/teams/rangers/four-things-rangers-fans-should-know-about-jon-toral-1-4331539/amp Just wait and see. The Martin and Swindon comparison is very well fitting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jourdan Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 17 minutes ago, Simsy said: Ince averages 1 goal in every 2.6games. That's exceptional for a winger. That's all career not just derby. Not time to take a risk on more potential deadwood that we are already struggling to offload. Especially when we are maybe just a couple great signings away to challenge top 2. if we hadn't had a bloated squad and we still had ince I would be more positive about this potential signing. If he's coming as a no.10 I would rather give vydra wieman butterfield maybe even Johnson a chance there before gambling on another player Ince is an excellent player. No dispute there. But my point was that even the best young players don't always deliver year in, year out. All players have career highs and career lows. So who cares what Toral did for Rangers? If Brentford and Birmingham fans waded onto the site to criticise him, it might be different. Any signing is a risk, even Lawrence and Jota. If Toral is priced at £2 million, the risk exists but it is minimal for a player who has played for two top clubs at youth level and impressed on loan in the Championship already. £5 million or more and alarm bells would ring, but at £2 million, this could be a very shrewd signing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nogbad van 50 Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 34 minutes ago, Jourdan said: You mention Ince. He hasn't been brilliant at every club he's played for, has he? For every Derby or Blackpool, there is a club where he didn't make any impression at all. It's the same for Toral. Just like Ince, he needs to find a club that is a good fit for him. In our position, if we are looking to replace Ince and Hughes and we are being realistic about it, Toral is the type of signing we are likely to make. A player who might seem to be a downgrade, a player who might not get people dancing on the ceiling at first mention but also a player who can be coached and developed to :reach that level or better. Exactly! Sign a player who's over 30 and some 'fans' moan about their age.Linked with a 22 year old schooled at Barcelona and given a contract by Arsenal and some 'fans' moan that he wasn't any good at Rangers!! We're not paying silly money for players any more and some 'fans' are moaning that potential signings aren't "exciting" enough-hilarious! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ambitious Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 I haven't seen much of Toral, but I was always under the impression he was a good player from little bits and bobs I've heard. I'm very surprised to see what Rangers fans have had to say about him, though. Birmingham fans, understandably, rate him highly. Rowett has spent a considerable amount of time with him, which is when he was seemingly at his best. If he thinks he's good enough for this team, rightly or wrongly. he's in a better position than any of us to say otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gccrowdpleaser Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 7 minutes ago, rcarso1 said: Exactly! Sign a player who's over 30 and some 'fans' moan about their age.Linked with a 22 year old schooled at Barcelona and given a contract by Arsenal and some 'fans' moan that he wasn't any good at Rangers!! We're not paying silly money for players any more and some 'fans' are moaning that potential signings aren't "exciting" enough-hilarious! Exactly. He has two directly comparable periods of time in the Championship but people choose to refer him not playing well at a shambles of a club, for a manager he who didn't sign him, in a 1 team league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Sheriff Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 34 minutes ago, Jourdan said: Ince is an excellent player. No dispute there. But my point was that even the best young players don't always deliver year in, year out. All players have career highs and career lows. So who cares what Toral did for Rangers? If Brentford and Birmingham fans waded onto the site to criticise him, it might be different. Any signing is a risk, even Lawrence and Jota. If Toral is priced at £2 million, the risk exists but it is minimal for a player who has played for two top clubs at youth level and impressed on loan in the Championship already. £5 million or more and alarm bells would ring, but at £2 million, this could be a very shrewd signing. Yeah I got your point. My counter argument was we shouldn't be taking risks with a bloated squad. If we want to take a risk let's play what we already have. He could well have just had a bad time at rangers and be great elsewhere but I would rather we spent money on proven talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jourdan Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 38 minutes ago, Simsy said: Yeah I got your point. My counter argument was we shouldn't be taking risks with a bloated squad. If we want to take a risk let's play what we already have. He could well have just had a bad time at rangers and be great elsewhere but I would rather we spent money on proven talent. We are going to take a risk whoever we sign. Wouldn't we all rather we spent the money on proven talent? But there are no guarantees in either case. And let's be honest, do we look in a reasonable position to spend £10 million on Jota or £7 million on Lawrence? It's a pipe dream. Honestly I think spending £2 million on Toral would be realistic and far less of a gamble than spending £10 million on Jota. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadioactiveWaste Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 Given rowett worked with him at brum, I think there's some confidence he knows and likes him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmberRamber Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 Read on a google search that a fee has been agreed. Was on something called FL72. Am I to assume this is one of those sites that has a lot of scorn poured over it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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