StringerBell Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 2 hours ago, cheron85 said: I mean this is a debate which could rage forever and we're never going to get anywhere He said "I'll continue supporting the team regardless and hope that the doubts I have prove unfounded" in his last post - You can only have doubts if you've decided there's something in the glass The key is - When we get to the season we'll all find out whether the glass was actually more or less full than we thought You don't have doubts? I do, and I think Rowett just might be successful in getting us out of this league at some point if Mel gives him time. So I'm not negative and yet I still have doubts. If you don't have doubts about something that is yet to be proven then you're not thinking critically. Which is perfectly fine btw, you don't have to when it comes to football. Feel free to take out of football whatever you want to. But the faith/scepticism dichotomy is a more accurate reflection of the conversation I've just seen than the glass half full/half empty analogy, even if I wouldn't regard TroyDyer's faith as blind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 Quite right @cheron85, this isn't a debate for here. We have different views on the subject. To frame 'skepticism vs faith' as a 'glass half full vs half empty' debate is to completely misrepresent it in my view. Anyway...would be happy to discuss skepticism or whatever with you in the Pub, but I suppose we should make some effort to stick to the topic here, however belatedly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo Ram Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 You can disagree with someone about something but still totally support them. There is no way anyone will convince me that selling Ince was a good idea, I disagree with the decision 100% but GR has my total support..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCFC1388 Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 http://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/arsenal-man-is-on-derby-county-s-radar-and-rams-remain-keen-on-tom-lawrence/story-30447982-detail/story.html Arsenal's Jon Toral is on Derby County's radar and the Rams have contacted the Gunners about the 22-year-old attacking midfielder. The Spaniard, who had a loan spell at Rangers last season, spent 2015-16 playing on loan under Rams boss Gary Rowett when he was manager at Birmingham City. Toral made 38 appearances for Birmingham and scored eight goals. Derby also remain interested in Leicester City forward Tom Lawrence. He is currently with Leicester at the Asia Trophy in Hong Kong and started in their first match against West Bromwich Albion. Lawrence was on loan at Ipswich Town last season. Rowett has completed three signings so far this season - Curtis Davies, Andre Wisdom and Tom Huddlestone - but made inquiries about 10 players Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DcFc Dyycheee Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 Breaking news from DET as always. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCFC1388 Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 Seems to me like Toral is a cheaper alternate to Jota, if we dont make any progress soon with Jota then we will push a deal through with Toral Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thierry Ennui Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 Toral isn't a winger, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Willow Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 22 minutes ago, DCFC1388 said: Seems to me like Toral is a cheaper alternate to Jota, if we dont make any progress soon with Jota then we will push a deal through with Toral Jota and Toral are not similar players at all as they don't play at the same position. Jota is predominantly right sided attacking midfielder / winger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Willow Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 18 minutes ago, DCFC1388 said: Seems to me like Toral is a cheaper alternate to Jota, if we dont make any progress soon with Jota then we will push a deal through with Toral Toral is a Box-to-Box midfielder, similar to Bryson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamLad1884 Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 Jota and Toral may not be similar players, but I expect both of them would be for the same position (most likely the spot behind the striker). Lawrence is the winger option it seems. I'd be happy with Lawrence and Toral, seems we would have too many big players otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamsFan10 Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 Toral is an attacking midfielder, would play in the middle of the 3 in a 4231. Can also play out wide, essentially in any position across that 3. So in that effect a bit like Jota, although Jota is predominantly a wide man and Toral more central. Just to clear up as there appears to be some confusion on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringerBell Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 It seems Lawrence is definitely a target so I'm guessing he is the player identified (can't remember if Rowett himself said this or someone like SDSR) that can play wide or behind the striker, as opposed to Jota or Toral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fraser_23 Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 Jon Toral, Toral, Whatever will be will be, he'll take us to the premier league, Jon Toral, Toral ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Willow Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 1 hour ago, RamsFan10 said: Toral is an attacking midfielder, would play in the middle of the 3 in a 4231. Can also play out wide, essentially in any position across that 3. So in that effect a bit like Jota, although Jota is predominantly a wide man and Toral more central. Just to clear up as there appears to be some confusion on here. Scout Report: Jon Toral | The Cesc Fabregas successor at Arsenal Who is Jon Toral? What is his Style of Play? An elegant central midfielder who has been blessed with a wonderful touch and a supreme range of passing. Toral has the unique ability to constantly be an outlet for players all over the field. The lad is consistently on the move and is always a release valve for his teammates whenever they get caught in a dead-end. This is something that cannot be overstated, as it is a skill that not many possess. Toral facilitates this ability with his capacity to hold onto the ball in tight spaces and often with an opposition player right on top of him. He looks very cool and composed on the ball always passing and then moving. Due to these attributes he is often utilized as a deep lying midfielder and is often partnered by a defensive midfielder (Huddlestone) who helps to cover him and do the dirty work. In short he controls the play from central midfield. What are his Strengths? Like so many Spanish midfielders, Toral has that rare ability to find space and never appear rushed when on the ball. His vision and ability to play a pass means that he can dictate proceedings from the centre of the pitch and he has a real desire to get forward. He has also been blessed with instant control and a wonderful left foot. He is technically very good, elegant on the ball, has a range of passes and an eye for goal. His eye for goals is something that needs to be mentioned. What are his Weaknesses? Toral must work on his right foot. His slight build may also make it difficult for him to adapt to the physical nature of first team football in the Premier League and he may well have to work hard on developing his strength in order to hold of players, much in the same way Jack Wilshere was able to do from a very young age. He is slowly but surely adapting himself to the physical nature of the game. He must improve the defensive side of his game and needs to play alongside someone does the dirty work and gives him freedom to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamsFan10 Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 12 minutes ago, lioncoeur said: Scout Report: Jon Toral | The Cesc Fabregas successor at Arsenal Who is Jon Toral? What is his Style of Play? An elegant central midfielder who has been blessed with a wonderful touch and a supreme range of passing. Toral has the unique ability to constantly be an outlet for players all over the field. The lad is consistently on the move and is always a release valve for his teammates whenever they get caught in a dead-end. This is something that cannot be overstated, as it is a skill that not many possess. Toral facilitates this ability with his capacity to hold onto the ball in tight spaces and often with an opposition player right on top of him. He looks very cool and composed on the ball always passing and then moving. Due to these attributes he is often utilized as a deep lying midfielder and is often partnered by a defensive midfielder (Huddlestone) who helps to cover him and do the dirty work. In short he controls the play from central midfield. What are his Strengths? Like so many Spanish midfielders, Toral has that rare ability to find space and never appear rushed when on the ball. His vision and ability to play a pass means that he can dictate proceedings from the centre of the pitch and he has a real desire to get forward. He has also been blessed with instant control and a wonderful left foot. He is technically very good, elegant on the ball, has a range of passes and an eye for goal. His eye for goals is something that needs to be mentioned. What are his Weaknesses? Toral must work on his right foot. His slight build may also make it difficult for him to adapt to the physical nature of first team football in the Premier League and he may well have to work hard on developing his strength in order to hold of players, much in the same way Jack Wilshere was able to do from a very young age. He is slowly but surely adapting himself to the physical nature of the game. He must improve the defensive side of his game and needs to play alongside someone does the dirty work and gives him freedom to play. This really isn't accurate. A brief look on transfermarkt and you can see he has only played two games, both for Rangers, as a defensive midfielder. In fact almost half his games for Rangers were in defensive midfield or central midfield, which is maybe why the didn't rate him. It says he's played 40 as an attacking midfielder, 31 on the left wing, 21 as a central midfielder and 19 on the right wing. So as i said, in our system he would play anywhere across the attacking three, rather than in the defensive 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Willow Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 1 minute ago, RamsFan10 said: This really isn't accurate. A brief look on transfermarkt.. Why do you think and you are so sure Transfermarkt is absolutely correct and right with its information? He has played for Birmingham like you are saying as an attacking midfielder (AMC) behind the striker, which is true and correct information. I am not going to contest it. I have checked it myself on the other web site. While in Rangers and Granada, he has played as a central midfielder and deep lying midfielder several times. What will be his future role and his position, if he eventually joins Rams, we can only speculate. I do strongly believe he'll be partnered with a T. Huddlestone in the midfield and not behind the striker like you are suggesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanoakaram4life Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 Always rated Toral and think his worth will only increse. Hopefully Arsenal are keen to sell and we can get the deal done soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamsFan10 Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 10 minutes ago, lioncoeur said: Why do you think and you are so sure Transfermarkt is absolutely correct and right with its information? He has played for Birmingham like you are saying as an attacking midfielder (AMC) behind the striker, which is true and correct information. I am not going to contest it. I have checked it myself on the other web site. While in Rangers and Granada, he has played as a central midfielder and deep lying midfielder several times. What will be his future role and his position, if he eventually joins Rams, we can only speculate. I do strongly believe he'll be partnered with a T. Huddlestone in the midfield and not behind the striker like you are suggesting. Did you watch him at Birmingham or Brentford? Always high up the pitch or out wide. Think he's far too lightweight to play defensively, even with Tom, which is probably why he got sussed out at Rangers. We have Huddlestone, Bryson, Butterfield, Johnson, Hanson and Thorne when fit who play in the 2 in a 4231 (and Baird if needs be). Surely makes more sense that a player we're signing, who has played most of his games in attacking midfield or out wide, would be coming in to strengthen in that area. We don't really have a natural player for that position, in the middle of the 3. Nugent, Vydra and Weimann are all forwards capable of playing further back, we don't really have anyone whose best position is there. Sort of the Ozil position at Arsenal, or where Oscar used to play for Chelsea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ambitious Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 I think this article is interesting: http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/birmingham-city-how-gary-rowetts-12419296 and would certainly point to us definitely being interested in bringing him here. A few other snippets from Rowett on Toral: http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/gary-rowett-jon-toral-you-11318094 http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/gary-rowett-gives-thoughts-whether-11219975 http://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/752165/Gary-Rowett-praises-Arsenal-midfielder-Jon-Toral-edges-closer-Rangers-move-News-Gossip and Toral on Rowett when he was linked with the Rangers job: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-4275854/Toral-not-surprised-Rowett-linked-Rangers-vacancy.html After reading through all of that, I 100% expect him to be a Derby player next season. I'm surprised it's taken this long for actual link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringerBell Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 10 minutes ago, Ambitious said: I think this article is interesting: http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/birmingham-city-how-gary-rowetts-12419296 and would certainly point to us definitely being interested in bringing him here. A few other snippets from Rowett on Toral: http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/gary-rowett-jon-toral-you-11318094 http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/gary-rowett-gives-thoughts-whether-11219975 http://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/752165/Gary-Rowett-praises-Arsenal-midfielder-Jon-Toral-edges-closer-Rangers-move-News-Gossip and Toral on Rowett when he was linked with the Rangers job: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-4275854/Toral-not-surprised-Rowett-linked-Rangers-vacancy.html After reading through all of that, I 100% expect him to be a Derby player next season. I'm surprised it's taken this long for actual link. Are Rowett and Toral like Tim Burton and Johnny Depp? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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