toddy Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 As far as DB is concerned every player just wants to play footie, not sit on a bench....please believe me. So if he gets the opportunity to go else where to play he will take it............... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Tibbs Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 32 minutes ago, RicME85 said: Yes I have but thanks to 'whoscored' listing 'holding onto ball' my opinion has changed. So many people up CM's arse. I don't buy the 'he holds the ball up' malarkey, he has a terrible first touch that is too heavy to hold the ball up and for the last 12 months his falling over hasnt done anything to buy ground. What. The. Actual. F... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mostyn6 Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 25 minutes ago, RicME85 said: OH but it is @Mostyn6 because Martin holds the ball up and therefore the ball never makes its way back to our defence but he was on the pitch at the time the goal was conceded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RicME85 Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 1 hour ago, RicME85 said: Yes I have but thanks to 'whoscored' listing 'holding onto ball' my opinion has changed. So many people up CM's arse. I don't buy the 'he holds the ball up' malarkey, he has a terrible first touch that is too heavy to hold the ball up and for the last 12 months his falling over hasnt done anything to buy ground. I'd suggest that a site which judges players based on stats might have done some research into how long the average player holds up the ball for... And if they're saying he's good at it that probably suggests he holds the ball up longer than the average player maybe? 55 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said: Yes, but that happens REGARDLESS of whether Bent is playing or whether Martin is playing. So it is not relevant to this debate about whether having Bent in the team is detrimental, as the pressure in question is nothing to do with which forward is playing! 48 minutes ago, RicME85 said: OH but it is @Mostyn6 because Martin holds the ball up and therefore the ball never makes its way back to our defence The point being that the longer a player can hold the ball up top... The more chance you have of getting wingers up to support and the better chance of turning defence into attack... If a player can't hold the ball up the opposition immediately regains control and send the ball back towards your defence much quicker... generally before they've had time to re-organise... If Bent can hold it up for an average of 5 secs (example only) and martin can hold it up for 10 secs... Wouldn't it make sense that Martin gives the wingers longer to get forward and the defence longer to re-organise? And being more organised leads to less mistakes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RicME85 Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 point being we havent seen this great hold up play from Martin for the last twelve months Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 4 minutes ago, RicME85 said: point being we havent seen this great hold up play from Martin for the last twelve months In your opinion sure... I still think he does it and has been doing it better than any of our other forwards... Can't think of a specific example (as trying to block out all recent football memories) but maybe the first goal against Fulham? Seem to remember Martin holding the ball in the corner from a throw in... sucking in 2/3 of their players then playing the ball into Russell? I feel like the bigger issue for me is the CMs playing too deep and the wingers playing too wide... Meaning whoever is up top is too exposed/isolated... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanjwitham Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 Martin doesn't hold the ball up in the same way someone like Steve Howard used to (a big lump you can just punt the ball up to and it will stick). With Martin, you can play the ball into his feet he will take a touch or two and lay it off to a team mate or flick it 'round the corner' for a winger. Martin isn't holding the ball up himself in the traditional sense, but the team as a whole is retaining possession. And that's what matters. But obviously that depends on getting players near to Martin quickly for him to link up with and playing decent balls into his feet. This season, he's had no support so has been having to hold onto the ball for longer, and a lot of the passes to him have been to his chest or head. which ultimately end up with him losing possession far more than in previous seasons. Bent's first instinct when he gets the ball is to turn and dribble towards the goal and have a shot. He very rarely links up with other team-mates, so it's basically all or nothing - he gets a shot off, or loses the ball completely and we're getting counter attacked on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninos Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 Im not some huge fan of Darren Bent, but he has pedigree and he's fast as hell, and if I were him I'd be LIVID at how little he's been played given the complete impotence of the attack. The one recent game where he played the entire match, he never scored but he stretched the back line, pulled defenders all over the place, and helped create goals for Ince and JR, and we got 4 of them! The Reading game was the one where he was left on the bench and should have been put into the game at some point. Give him a run and I think he'd come good (at the same time that he was breaking the all time Derby record for getting caught offside). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramarena Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Not involved again. If Clement does not want him then we need to get him out on loan and try and recoup at least some of the wages instead of having him sat round doing nothing. Ditto Weimann. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hughesy 1984 Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Why would we let bent leave now?? Martin is obviously not at his best and bent is our only other genuine striker. there's no doubting he knows how to score goals, so there's no sense in getting rid of him, as he will go to another team in this division and score for them. I can't believe Clement hasn't given him more of a chance, especially with how poor Martin has been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MackworthRamIsGod Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Why did he drop Weimann after he just started scoring in consecutive games, why was bent not given another chance after playing so well against Hartlepool, why hasn't Camara started a game yet, why is Johnson being picked to start every game, why hasn't Bryson been given more of a chance, why hasn't Zanzala made the bench given he was scoring for fun before going out on loan, why do we play so deep counter-attacking football when it is clear it doesn't work for us? Many questions could be asked this season, only 1 man has he answers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leicester Ram Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 On 29 January 2016 at 15:42, duncanjwitham said: Martin doesn't hold the ball up in the same way someone like Steve Howard used to (a big lump you can just punt the ball up to and it will stick). With Martin, you can play the ball into his feet he will take a touch or two and lay it off to a team mate or flick it 'round the corner' for a winger. Martin isn't holding the ball up himself in the traditional sense, but the team as a whole is retaining possession. And that's what matters. But obviously that depends on getting players near to Martin quickly for him to link up with and playing decent balls into his feet. This season, he's had no support so has been having to hold onto the ball for longer, and a lot of the passes to him have been to his chest or head. which ultimately end up with him losing possession far more than in previous seasons. Bent's first instinct when he gets the ball is to turn and dribble towards the goal and have a shot. He very rarely links up with other team-mates, so it's basically all or nothing - he gets a shot off, or loses the ball completely and we're getting counter attacked on. Think that's a very simplistic way of looking at it. Martin can very rarely run in behind and create space for the midfield, something Bent can do in abundance. We had about 3/4 very good crosses go in against Burnley and no one was on the end of them, you can pretty much guarantee Bent would have been on the end of them. In a team that's becoming less Martin-centric, getting rid of our second best striker who offers something very different is IMO a very bad idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfie20 Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 21 minutes ago, hughesy 1984 said: Why would we let bent leave now?? Martin is obviously not at his best and bent is our only other genuine striker. there's no doubting he knows how to score goals, so there's no sense in getting rid of him, as he will go to another team in this division and score for them. I can't believe Clement hasn't given him more of a chance, especially with how poor Martin has been. Weimann is a genuine striker as is Blackman. Russell? Well he's definitely not a winger so does that make him a striker to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t'oldu Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 57 minutes ago, Leicester Ram said: Think that's a very simplistic way of looking at it. Martin can very rarely run in behind and create space for the midfield, something Bent can do in abundance. We had about 3/4 very good crosses go in against Burnley and no one was on the end of them, you can pretty much guarantee Bent would have been on the end of them. In a team that's becoming less Martin-centric, getting rid of our second best striker who offers something very different is IMO a very bad idea. Exactly. Its not that Martin has 'lost' it It's more that the system is now no longer set up around him..........Bent needs a decent opportunity to get match fit , adapt to new team-mates , and show what he can do . What he CAN'T do is come on as a late sub and play alongside Martin , who is not a natural 2 up front player........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-Ram Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 He has consistently scored 20 (ish) goals a season in the premiership at any team he has been at. Yey he isnt good enough for us. He knows where the goal is. I feel the only problem is he needs a run of 5-6 games in the side and clements not willing to give it him. He isnt going to hit form or bang them in when he is getting the odd five min Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninos Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 4 hours ago, MackworthRamIsGod said: Why did he drop Weimann after he just started scoring in consecutive games, why was bent not given another chance after playing so well against Hartlepool, why hasn't Camara started a game yet, why is Johnson being picked to start every game, why hasn't Bryson been given more of a chance, why hasn't Zanzala made the bench given he was scoring for fun before going out on loan, why do we play so deep counter-attacking football when it is clear it doesn't work for us? Many questions could be asked this season, only 1 man has he answers. Let's speculate ? 1. Because PC thinks weimann can't beat people and can't score - so he's out of favour. 2. Perhaps Bent has vented his frustrations and PC sees him as a disruptive influence? Bottom line he doesn't believe bent is the answer or despises the constant offsides. 3. Blooding Camara in gently and an abundance of wide players. 4.johnson is a defensive beast who can score with his head and from distance so PC dare not leave him out because he's s game winner. Plus you can't really drop a £6m man 5. Bryson must be nursing his injury still 6. The Zanzala one is a travesty ... He should have been put on the bench and played parts In some games because he's been lethal for the u21s and he fits Mel's vision. A loan was the next best option but The fa cup match was a perfect chance to introduce him and see what he's made of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramit Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 8 hours ago, MackworthRamIsGod said: why was bent not given another chance after playing so well against Hartlepool, Because it was Hartlepool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MackworthRamIsGod Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Doesn't matter who it was, he scored a bloody good goal and played well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TroyDyer Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 18 hours ago, MackworthRamIsGod said: Why did he drop Weimann after he just started scoring in consecutive games, why was bent not given another chance after playing so well against Hartlepool, why hasn't Camara started a game yet, why is Johnson being picked to start every game, why hasn't Bryson been given more of a chance, why hasn't Zanzala made the bench given he was scoring for fun before going out on loan, why do we play so deep counter-attacking football when it is clear it doesn't work for us? Many questions could be asked this season, only 1 man has he answers. I would add "why are we sending centre halves out on loan, leaving virtually zero competition for places when we have shipped 10 goals in 3 games, several of which down to the centre backs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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