WestKentRam

2 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Difference is that Gibson had probably had prior sight or maybe even helped draft the EFL statements...

I do not believe that for a second.

It is a shame, however, that the Freedom of Information Act only covers data with regard to public authorities and not bodies such as the EFL. It would help give clarity as to the content of contacts and discussions that we are not party to, and allay the concerns of fans sceptical as to the impartiality of the EFL.

The silence from Gibson following MM's statement of 4th Feb is deafening.

As others have pointed out, he surely will release a negative response just prior to the game on Saturday to try and gain an advantage in that, just as he tried to derail our play-off final preparations against Villa by announcing his intention of suing Derby three days before this match.

He managed to issue statements on 18th Jan and 4th Feb both in response to EFL statements of the preceding day. So he can work fast when he wants to and at other times drag his feet.

It doesn't seem to matter to him how this is affecting the club and the fans in particular, or perhaps it does. I sincerely hope there are behind the scenes discussions going on and he will give a positive reaction to MM's offer, but I am waiting to be disappointed and have the feeling that he is playing with us.

Someone like Festy is why I love watching football. Seeing him switch on the afterburners and leave defenders in his wake is superb. You could feel the excitement in the crowd when he got the ball in wide positions and what a great assist and goal. I'm sure he will go on to great things (of course he already is with Derby!) and I'll be following his career with interest.

On 18/01/2022 at 05:50, PistoldPete said:

And Gibson has sued him before over Ziege.

This is just another example of how Boro and the EFL are so intertwined to mean anyone caught in the middle stands no chance of a fair hearing.

So, the facts.

In 2002, Boro, with Steve Gibson as their chairman, win an appeal court hearing against Liverpool, whose chief executive just happens to be Rick Parry, for the 'tapping up' of Boro player Christian Ziege prior to his signing for Liverpool.

Reading the reports of the case it is easy to see why Parry may be cautious in wanting to keep Gibson onside now with his dealings with him:

The two clubs were due to meet at the high court in London on March 22 for what was expected to be a 10-day hearing, with the suspicion being that the dispute had long since degenerated into little more than a personal grudge between the Boro chairman Steve Gibson and the Liverpool chief executive Rick Parry.

"They have treated us like dirt," [Boro chief executive] Lamb said of Liverpool.

Liverpool can now appeal against yesterday's ruling and may wish to settle out of court. But this has become such a vitriolic and personal argument, Middlesbrough will not consider such a response.

I assume that in any communication Boro has with the EFL that Gibson and Parry have no contact with each other and declare their previous history. Otherwise, surely, there is a major risk that this will influence, whether consciously or not, any future cases, such as exactly the one that the two men, in their respective roles with the EFL and Boro, have made against Derby.

I still think the EFL are digging themselves into a deeper and deeper hole here, using a spade that Boro have forced them to use while they oversee the EFL shovelling away.

In the League Arbitration Panel's ruling of 22nd October 2020, it is stated that:

On 6 September 2019 MFC commenced arbitration proceedings against EFL contending that EFL had failed to take timely disciplinary action against DCFC. On 29 November 2019 MFC and EFL agreed that this arbitration would be stayed and EFL would commence disciplinary proceedings against DCFC.

The key word here for me is 'stayed'. I did discuss this with a lawyer friend today and it does have the meaning that it implies of paused rather than stopped or terminated.

Surely if Boro initially wanted to commence proceedings directly against the EFL for not taking action against Derby, and the EFL only managed to convince Boro not to do so by saying they would commence disciplinary proceedings against Derby themselves, then the action by Boro against the EFL would not be stayed but stopped. It implies that Boro will hold the threat over the EFL that they will restart action against them if the EFL doesn't pursue Derby to their liking.

This point is also made by Mel Morris' letter today in which he says 'The root of this is that they are also under attack from Boro who basically said you pursue Derby at all costs, or we will continue with our action to pursue the EFL.'

This isn't just MM ranting or paranoia of the EFL's stance against Derby, it is spelled out in this ruling on the EFL website.

How possibly can Derby expect a fair hearing in any of the matters since the start of all this with the EFL actions clearly being influenced by the threat of a claim against them if things don't go Boro's way?

34 minutes ago, Gaspode said:

Gibson demanded to be told details of how much money was proposed to go to creditors including HMRC in the statement put out by Boro (which is absolutely none of his business). Now the EFL want all main creditors and HMRC in a room with Boro to divvy up any money that’s available….

Those of a suspicious and cynical outlook may wonder if there has been an element of collusion between the two parties……

Absolutely not.

It is also a coincidence that both Boro and the EFL indepently 'served Notice of Arbitration' on exactly the same date of 7 September 2020 to appeal the Disciplinary Commission decision following Derby initially winning the case.

It also has absolutely nothing to do with Boro deciding on 29 November 2019 not to pursue their case against the EFL as long as the EFL commenced disciplinary proceedings against Derby, and Boro would then seek compensation from Derby.

The EFL siding with Boro against Derby once again in their latest statement just shows how they can ignore any previous agreements with Boro, and act as a completely independent body. Well done the EFL on such impartiality, I say!

13 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

That’s the really weird thing. As of January 2021, we were officially innocent of basically everything. The EFL had appealed but the result of that appeal wouldn’t be announced until May 2021. So what even is their claim? Or have they changed it since (thus rendering all claims about it being a long-standing one moot)?

I really don't understand the timeline and how this all links together. I sincerely hope Quantuma have it all absolutely straight in their heads and are working not only for the creditors but also in the best interests of the club, that may not exactly be the same thing.

From the League Arbitration Panel - Application by Middlesbrough FC document on the EFL website, from 7th Sept 2020, ie before January 2021 https://www.efl.com/contentassets/c9fc5dceaa7f4b62b81dca0b9e2f7c9d/2020.10.26---decision-on-mfc-redaction.pdf:

On 6 September 2019 MFC commenced arbitration proceedings against EFL contending that EFL had failed to take timely disciplinary action against DCFC. On 29 November 2019 MFC and EFL agreed that this arbitration would be stayed and EFL would commence disciplinary proceedings against DCFC. MFC indicated that if EFL started such disciplinary proceedings, MFC would seek compensation from DCFC pursuant to EFL Reg 92.2.5. In other words, they would apply for compensation on the back of a finding of breach by DCFC.

The galling thing from this is even though we essentially won the case against the EFL, Boro still wanted to appeal against us having won it, that was the same position that the EFL took!

7. The Disciplinary Commission delivered a decision on 24 August 2020 after a five day hearing. They dismissed Charge 1 and found against DCFC only on one of five elements of Charge 2, namely that DCFC had failed adequately to disclose changes to its accounting policies.

8. EFL served Notice of Arbitration on 7 September 2020 to appeal the Disciplinary Commission decision on Charge 2 only.

9. MFC served Notice of Arbitration on 7 September 2020 also to appeal the Disciplinary Commission decision both as to Charge 1 and Charge 2.

The document even has the following statement:

'The result of this somewhat impenetrable procedural position is that the issues before us are as follows:'

So if the lawyers found the arguments so complicated, what hope is there for us mere mortals and our club?

12 minutes ago, Seth's left foot said:

Forget QPR, Villa posted a £68m loss when they beat us at Wembley. And based on Boro’s claim why can’t we also sue Wolves amongst others?

Take them to court… the EFL will be bricking it then.

QPR were the only team that were found to have broken FFP rules that directly involved us. However much it sticks in the throat given how we have been pursued, Villa's accounts were deemed above board, as were Wolves.

Leicester's 'miracle' of promotion in the same 13/14 season and then winning the Premier League is even more sickening to me given the story behind their finances behind this as per this article https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/feb/21/leicester-settlement-football-league-ffp I can hardly see the EFL and Derby coming out with a joint statement as the EFL did with Leicester then when they were fined the huge sum of £3.1m:

'The EFL and Leicester announced the £3.1m settlement in identical statements, which gave little detail about the issues considered. The statements made clear that: “In reaching the settlement, the EFL acknowledges that the club did not make any deliberate attempt to infringe the rules or to deceive and that the dispute arose out of genuine differences of interpretation of the rules between the parties.”' How nice.

So in 13/14  two of the three teams that were promoted ahead of us were found to have broken FFP rules, but now we are threatened with extinction for supposedly doing then same despite initially winning the case against the EFL.

1 hour ago, Maharan said:

one point I found interesting is that the statement says that the process commenced in January 2021, before the club went into administration. I think that’s a pertinent point. 

Boro's statement of 18/1/22 says 'MFC first intimated a claim against Derby County in May 2019 immediately following the end of the 2018/19 season. The claim was held in abeyance whilst the EFL Disciplinary Proceedings against Derby County were followed through to a conclusion. MFC then sent Derby County a Letter Before Action in the autumn of 2020 and started arbitration proceedings against Derby County in January 2021.'

As I've pointed out before, Boro initially announced their claim three days before our play-off final against Villa in May 19, no doubt to try and cause maximal disruption to us in that game.

The EFL now putting out a statement saying that Boro's claim against us 'commenced initially in January 2021' doesn't quite give the whole story when compared to Boro's.

I must admit to not quite understanding the complicated timeline of the whole process of MM's tenure and the EFL cases against us, appeals etc and would very much like to see this set out. My grasp of it is that, intertwined with what the EFL seem to set out as a matter of fact date when Boro started their claim against us in January 21, is Boro wanted to make a claim against the EFL, were told not to but to do so against Derby directly, but to hold off while disciplinary proceedings were held against us. We won the case the EFL brought concerning sale of the stadium. and all but wording to be made clearer on amortisation, then lost on appeal by the EFL that had no accountant on the panel that we then could not appeal against.

So essentially most of the delay in the case, from May 19 until now, has been due to EFL processes and not MM or Quantuma dragging their feet over it.

I find it hard to get my head around us getting sued by Boro and Wycombe in this way, but not putting a claim in against QPR for similar that occurred in 2013/14. I know I've read before that Mel Morris said he wouldn't pursue such a case, but is it too late, or would the administrators take it upon themselves to do so on behalf of the club and the creditors?

On the downside, of course a legal case like this would normally take a long time to deal with, and time is one thing we certainly don't have at the moment. On the other hand, can cases like this be taken in tandem so if we lost the case against Boro and WW then we would win the case against QPR for what I'd imagine should be a similar sum to help make the club more saleable?

One particular thing from Boro's statement from 18/1/22 that annoys me is the sentence 'MFC first intimated a claim against Derby County in May 2019 immediately following the end of the 2018/19 season.'

Our season hadn't quite finished. Derby were informed of the claim three days before the play-off final v Aston Villa. I agree with Mel Morris' comment on this at the time 'I consider the timing of their action to be cynical, an open attempt to try and steal our focus ahead of a crucial game.'

Gibson knows all about timing and continues this now, with his claim put in to a club in administration that he knows will block the sale and cause our liquidation.

After getting thoroughly worn down by this like everyone else and D-Day fast approaching, desperately my only hope is Mike Ashley comes galloping in on his Sports Direct stallion to save us, having waited until the last minute to try and get the best deal. Hopefully not like putting in a very late eBay bid to find the item's gone already ?

I must admit I don't understand exactly what is going on here, having read Boro's statement they put out on their website today https://www.mfc.co.uk/news/club-statement-Derby-county, and would be grateful if someone who does have a legal grasp of the situation can answer something about it for me.

Boro state: 'MFC then sent Derby County a Letter Before Action in the autumn of 2020 and started arbitration proceedings against Derby County in January 2021. Derby County used various procedural tactics to seek to delay the proceedings and as a result the claim has yet to be finally determined.'

Did not Boro apply for an arbitration claim via the EFL and were denied this on 26/10/20 or is this something else? https://www.efl.com/contentassets/c9fc5dceaa7f4b62b81dca0b9e2f7c9d/2020.10.26---decision-on-mfc-redaction.pdf

Is the current dispute over a new claim that would be decided by arbitration via the EFL processes, or is it a separate case to be decided by the courts?

Another thing that troubles me is the exact timing of Gibson's action. Did he institute this claim that the impasse appears to be over once Derby were in administration or before this? If the former then this is extremely worrying, as he would then surely know that it would effectively block a takeover of the club in administration as any potential new owner would be very unlikely to buy the club with this hanging over them.

If the club in administration took it through the courts then this would mean almost certain liquidation as even if Derby won the case they wouldn't be able to keep paying their players for this length of time without a new owner. So the only way for it to be resolved quickly would be a large pay off to Boro that would see Derby having to effectively sell their squad to finance this, again making a sale of the club with no players unlikely and liquidation the end result. There appears to be no way out apart from Gibson withdrawing his claim, that seems very unlikely unless the now mounting political pressure has some effect.

If the arbitration/claim was in its same form in the MM era then ok, MM bailed with this a potential loss of more of his money and the administrators are just having to deal with one more thing from that era. However I can't really see anything in news reports and statements that state exactly when Boro and WW firmed things up with a definite claim against the club rather than the initial process of a 'Letter Before Action in the autumn of 2020' that is referred to in the Boro statement then the arbitration, that I am not sure is Boro's failed one via the EFL processes as I've detailed above or something else. Any help to get me to understand this would be gratefully received.

13 minutes ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said:

Can I just clarify the stoke city tickets situation....are they available tonight at the ground?

Ive got mine but our nephew wants to come along with us and watch 

Sadly no pay on the day for Derby fans at Stoke tonight either.

https://www.dcfc.co.uk/news/2021/12/ticket-information-stoke-city-a

38 minutes ago, Jayram said:

Absolutely gutted by this. My mate and I held off on buying Reading tickets because of the uncertainty over the govt bringing in restrictions and now because we don’t live in Derby we miss out on our nearest away game! Surely a ‘print your own ticket’ option could have been arranged between the clubs? 

It does seem faintly archaic that away tickets can't be printed or downloaded on mobiles. Clubs seem to want to lessen their environmental impact and this would make a small difference. I know I can't preach given the amount of travelling I do mostly for home games, but that's another matter...

Can understand you being gutted. My son lives in Reading and comes to a few Derby games with me, and it would have been good to meet up with him for this.

12 minutes ago, Foreveram said:

It is item one on latest news on the club website, tickets for Reading available for collection until  tomorrow 

That's because the item has been updated 3 hours ago and so has been moved up the 'latest news' list! Before this it was behind post match reaction to the WBA game etc.

2 minutes ago, Mucker1884 said:

It's a shame that the club doesn't just go with the flow, give the fans what they want, and offer a postal service for match tickets.
At least then, fans would be able to blame someone else, when they are still unable to go, due to said time-sensitive tickets being held up in the post.

 

 

*This sarcastic post was written with full first hand experience of using the Royal Mail Standard Delivery system (inc. "Proof of postage" on a regular and often basis over the past 24 months (and particularly the past 6 months, which have been nothing short of "Atrocious"!).  Royal Mail are solely responsible for Muckerette's Etsy business customer ratings dropping to 95%.  She is miffed!  Alternative options are not financially viable for small ticket items, and customers (understandably) don't appear to want to almost double the item cost, to ensure a more reliable delivery.

#royalmailsucks ?

Sorry, not great when postal issues mess up a business. I've bought away tickets by post for many years from Derby and ?not had an issue yet.

I can completely understand the club does not want to risk the Christmas post and have to deal with supporters whose tickets haven't arrived in time. However just having the match listed on the away ticket section of the club website rather than remove it from there, with the info that tickets can be picked up in person from Pride Park, would have meant more away fans would be going next Monday than is the case.

8 minutes ago, Foreveram said:

The information was on the club website on the latest news and on the tickets page with the on sale dates for all categories on the 13th December. I also gave a heads up on this thread on the same date. The club are constrained by the holiday posting times to get tickets out and are still available for collection. It’s Readings decision not to sell on the day, not sure what else the club can do.

 

Yes my fault for missing the ticketing info when it was released but looks like I'm not the only one. Have learned my lesson and will keep a keener eye out for updates on away games I want to get to.

I'm not sure when the Reading ticket info was taken off the club website away ticket section though, but I can almost be positive I looked at this before coming up on Monday for the WBA game and saw there was no mention of the Reading game and so thought tickets hadn't been released yet due to so many games being called off. It seems a bit odd to take off ticket purchase info from the ticket section of the club website when they are still available to buy in person.

I missed your post on this thread and can see this forum is good for not having large numbers of threads on individual topics, but unless each thread is gone through meticulously then it is easy not to see a particular post. If there was a thread titled 'Reading tickets now for sale for idiots who have missed this update on the club website' then I might have paid more attention!

4 minutes ago, Anag Ram said:

Particularly at a time when there’s so much uncertainty. I still have a ticket for the Cardiff game which I may not get chance to redeem. I left it a bit later than usual for the Reading game in case any new restrictions were imposed and now I can’t support the team.

 I’m howling at the moon I know but it helps ?

Yeah, sorry you can't make it either. 

There does seem to be an assumption that Derby fans live in the city and can pop down to the ticket office at will. A bit like with the season ticket fiasco as these initially only could be picked up in person, then the club relented and offered a postal option after the issues this caused.

I do wonder with the club in administration and people having sadly lost their jobs, if the website and ticket office are being run on bare bones and this is now impacting supporters in the day to day practicalities like this.

11 minutes ago, Anag Ram said:

I’m with you mate. Looked in vain for details on the website. Phoned the office and was told collection only. I live in Bristol so that’s not an option. 

I can see the club makes it clear it's Reading's decision not to make pay on the day available. However warning fans of the only two day window for tickets to be generally available online from 20th to 22nd December would have been nice, without having to do a deep dive of the club website to try and find this out in a non-ticketing info section whenever it was put there.

Am having a hissy fit over the Reading tickets. The club website has been updated to say pay on the day not available. Even now, however, information on ticketing for the game isn't listed under away games in the ticket section, only the Coventry FA Cup one is. They've put it in the 'breaking news' list so it's not apparent without scrolling through match reports, player interviews etc.

As I felt sorry for our plight at the start of the season I even became a member and one of the benefits was priority on tickets, and I can't recall getting an email, and can't find one doing a search of them, on Reading tickets and when they can be bought.

It would have been three of us going but I can't justify the time or petrol to drive to Derby to buy from our ticket office now. A right old sulk coming on as I would have bought them on Monday when up for the WBA game but made the incorrect assumption they were being left for pay on the day due to Covid uncertainties in case the game was called off.

3 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Statement from the admin team is simply not good enough.

if there are delays given the previous communications from them then they need to be explicit about why.

it’s no good talking about positive discussions they are having. Kirchner doesn’t seem to think it’s positive. Maybe he won’t be the preferred bidder but really right now if he drops out the preferred bidder could be chosen by default .. there might be only one left!

The problem is the administrators have to sound confident even if the situation is all but hopeless, until there is absolutely no chance of saving the club.

It's a bit like a football manager won't say a club is relegated until it is mathematically impossible to stay up.

Looking at the statement put out as reported on by Derbyshire Live, to my eye I really don't think the administrators are dragging things out for the fun of it.

"Joint administrator, Carl Jackson, said: "The joint administrators continue to have positive and fruitful discussions and negotiations with interested parties but these are complex and require input and decisions from other stakeholders."

So, if a deal still isn't agreed with HMRC, Arsenal, Boro/WW, MM and other creditors then how can the administrators give the green light to a particular bidder?

The other thing is the debt or potential debt Derby has is much more than the £60m Chris Kirchner said he would put in over 2 years. So if the initial debt can't be cleared, how can they accept his bid as even then it would leave nothing for running the club?

Sadly the state of the shop reflects the club's current problems and I wonder if the two are linked.

I get regular emails from the megastore and received one about new items including a dog squeezy toy. Being a sucker for a bit of tat I went into the store last Saturday before the match to be told they don't have any in, it's online only at the moment. Ok, fine, not really worth it with P+P added on so I'll have another look when next up.

My mate also wanted a new Derby hat. Two weeks before Christmas and in cold weather, absolutely none to be seen, and he was told they are sold out. None show online either. Must be running the stock down and  I wonder if they can't afford to pay for new items to be made/shipped or how this is affected by the club being in administration.

1 hour ago, Bob The Badger said:

I used to love F1 in the 70s' and 80s' and then got a bit bored with it tbh.

I decided to watch today just because I have have SS and had nothing going on and got sucked in by the hype.

I didn't really care who won. It would be nice to have a Brit win 8 times, but I also have a soft spot for the Dutch and their rabid supporters so I thought it would be cool for them to have a world champ.

What an utter embarrassing cluster for the entire sport and now I realise why I drifted away from it.

Hamilton was cruising when one accident allowed MV back in.

He then started cruising to a win again when another accident let MV back in.

Then he has a 13 second lead wiped out and he has to start level to a man on new soft tyres with one lap left.

Who an earth can think any of that made any sense or was fair and when did Mel Morris take over F1?

Exactly my position. I was sucked in by the hype and thought I'd give it another go after decades of non-watching what to me had become a tedious procession. I thought it would be great to watch a sporting finale unencumbered by having to worry about contrived rules, legal small print and drawn out appeals etc that supporting Derby had become...

The FIA may have shot themselves in the foot here, as in trying to make it a more exciting spectacle by bizarrely suddenly changing the rules during the crucial part of a race, they've turned people off like me as World of Sport wrestling on ITV Saturday afternoons with Dickie Davies feels less fixed (one for the kids, there).