WestKentRam

7 minutes ago, DavesaRam said:

In which reality are you living in?

Not this one.

Right, let's see if it all evens itself up in the end. Someone will have told the ref at half time his obvious penalty mistake. We'll get an equally dodgy decision go our way and win🤞

To elabrate from the 'Why so negative????' thread...

The fans of most other teams in the EFL, and also of the PL apart from those permanently in the top division, have had promotions more recently than us to enjoy/keep them preoccupied. Of the other similarly sized clubs to us in the list, all have been in the PL since we have, and haven't had to endure the 07/08 season, two relegations, near liquidation etc.

So in a way Derby are in an almost unique situation with the length of time since our last promotion. If things start going 'wrong', in whatever way you see it, ie not enough home wins, style of football, too many old players, too many injured players etc etc then it's understandable a sense of 'here we go again we're doomed' becomes the dominant feeling, like the self fulfilling early spring collapse.

Breaking out of this negative mindset given the past is tough for individual fans, and it also appears tough for the club to get out of a repeating cycle of outcome failure.

1 hour ago, richinspain said:

So the response from VAR is a ☑️! Can't they just say "offside/onside" or "goal/no goal "?

Thank goodness they are not pilots or air traffic controllers. They've invented a system where one response can mean two different things.

The VAR refs probably just nipped out for their statutory rest break as it unfortunately fell mid match. They came back in to the unattended VAR screens, panicked as they couldn't work out what had just happened and pressed the 'VAR check complete' button hoping that would sort it.

37 minutes ago, Chellaston Ram said:

Liverpool have had many VAR decisions in their favour in the past. Swings and roundabouts spring to mind.

I agree. As we are frequently told, it all evens itself out at the end of the season.

Liverpool fans should quit complaining and just draw a line under it, unlike the line the VAR ref forgot to do.

I'm really beginning to doubt myself having read a lot of stuff on social media and here since the game finished. It's a long 3.5 hour trip home from PP, so lots of time to mull it over and discuss with my fellow southern softie Ram I go to games with.

I really much prefer how we played today, and generally how we go about games, to some of the side to side and backwards 'crab football' that has been served up over previous seasons under various other managers. There have been times under past regimes when I've questioned why I travel so far for some the stuff that's been served up week in week out.

I'm not saying we are stroking it around like Man City, and although frustrating not to have converted the many chances today, I feel we are not far off. I remain slightly baffled by a lot of the anti-PW views, and just thought I'd put something mildly positive on here as to how things appear to me.

I don't want to pee on your chips, as frankly that would be a waste of chips, but I'm sure after the game Mourinho claimed Man U didn't lose, as the result is what happens before the shoot out ie a draw!

I see he's up to his old tricks, as last week he said Roma didn't lose last season's Europa League final in a penalty shoot out either.

Despite finding him very annoying, I do admire and am amused by his brazen chutzpah on this.

17 minutes ago, sage said:

Are you aware you can pay a small monthly sum to listen to games with RD commentary online?

Yes, thanks, I did this for a while but then started going to more games with a ST and around 50% of away games if they geographically fit from the midlands-ish south.

I would pay on a game by game basis for radio commentary for those I can't get to, as can be done for video streaming on RamsTV, but I can't justify £60 a year for this as it isn't a huge number of games.

Sorry to hear this, and I hope Ed feels better soon.

Not living in the area I don't get to listen to live commentary on BBC Radio Derby, but I download the Rams Daily podcasts and enjoy listening to what he has to say in his analysis and interviews. 

Shan't get into that can of worms that is the ills of social media, but no job should mean you have to take directed vitriol if someone doesn't agree with you or like what your doing. I recall the grief he got over reporting/breaking the news that the Chris Kirchner deal was about to collapse. Must be hard to take.

I was amazed, when watching MOTD last night, to hear of a Derby County record in relation to the PL and is was nothing to do with the majestic 07/08 season.

We hold the record for most consecutive home draws in a season, with four for the 00/01 season. Thankfully Brentford lost 3-1 at home to Everton yesterday, or they would have equalled our record.

Surely we deserve a trophy for such a feat.

16 hours ago, ap04 said:

As Kokosnuss mentioned above it 100% comes off the defender, and I am yet to see one like this being given.

However the above is just a recommendation to Uefa from a panel, no guideline has been issued. From the little I read the official Ifab/fa rules here still mention nothing on deflections just unnatural position, or the 2nd case here for example, so maybe penalty was correct after all.

Good point this.

I've been pondering the Portsmouth game over the last few days reading and listening to reports of the goals and a rewatch of the highlights to be my own sofa-VAR.

I agree that from my reading of the laws it doesn't matter if it did come off Waghorn or not, it should still be a penalty to us, especially as the defender's arms in the position they are in essentially 'make him big' like a goalkeeper would do trying to stop a cross or shot.

Given that there was also a clear handball in the build up to their goal when their player brought the high ball down and controlled it with his arm, I'm putting my rose tinted specs on and saying their goal should have been disallowed and we should have won 1-0. My 'Spreadsheet of Injustice' will be updated.

He's taken us to the top of the table.

1 hour ago, StevenageRam said:

As we didn't play today I went and watched Stevenage v Carlisle as its only 5 mins from me. Stevenage look a decent team although I'd be surprised if they stayed where they are now. As for Carlisle they looked poor and shouldn't pose much of a problem in 2 weeks time.

Great. That's the game cursed and an away loss confirmed.

Couldn't you have rolled out a few cliches? There are no easy games in League One, we'll give them the utmost respect, they look like a good outfit, will give us a test etc...

Decent results for us with Exeter and Stevenage dropping points. It's still on!

On 06/09/2023 at 20:36, hintonsboots said:

Who is AL ?

I had visions of big Alan Brazil being brought in to ref our games.

It brings to mind the story of a sports teacher (Socially Distant Sports Bar podcast?) reffing a school game from his car parked on the touchline in the dark sheeting rain of winter. If he saw an infringement he'd flash his car headlights to give a decision. Would liven up our matches if the ref did this sat in a Ron Brooks Toyota parked near the dugouts.

5 minutes ago, ilkleyram said:

Please could you let me know what the maximum number of comments we’re allowed to make on any one topic is? I can’t find the number in the t’s and c’s

It may vary depending on whether it's an international break or not.

11 minutes ago, WystonRam said:

This is exactly my point, the FA have not been clear in how the red card was overturned by stating “did not deny an obvious goalscoring opportunity”. Was it the tackle ? Was it the  “handball”? The FA statement does not explain clearly. 

The FA statement says Wildsmith was sent off on 2nd Sept for 'denying Bolton Wanderers a goal or an obvious goal-scoring opportunity by handling the ball' and they upheld a claim of wrongful dismissal by Derby and removed his one match ban.

The word handball is used in the statement, but not tackle.

What they haven't said was whether they overturned it as it was not a handball, or whether they still think it was a handball but not a goal scoring opportunity.

I imagine they didn't want to criticise the ref directly and publicly in the statement, so have made it deliberately ambiguous rather than saying he saw a handball when there was none.

3 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

I imagine that Warne will be looking to increase the number of goals scored from set pieces and improve the crossing into the box. That's his mantra isn't it?

Our emphasis on crossing worries me, as from what I've read, therefore it must be correct, crossing the ball may look good and intuitively appear to almost end in the net, but actually it isn't a great method of trying to score.

https://soccerment.com/crossing-effective-strategy/

10 minutes ago, jameso said:

Out of interest then, how many points were we fairly due in 2007-08?

It's 40, right?

That's right. We got bonus points for breaking so many records that season.

53 minutes ago, jameso said:

You have a splendid sense of irony. I think. 😜

Cheers. I think!

I'm good at ironing as well, but can never quite decide if those Derby tops that the label says are ok for a cool iron are safe to do so without risk, or not. If you see someone at a game with a mildly creased shirt, it's me 👋

49 minutes ago, jameso said:

Here’s another witness testimony for you:

 

 

However, the witness says 'would have been a straight red' ie they did not consider the challenge worthy of a red card as it stood.

And I call @DavesaRam for the defence, as his contemporaneous testimony stated 'Elder talked to for going in aggressively, following three equally aggressive challenges from Bolton players in the build up'.

Therefore, if we're sending Elder off, then Bolton should be down to 8 men themselves.

I submit documentary evidence from the FA laws of the game, that a two footed challenge in itself is not a straight red card:

"Any player who lunges at an opponent in challenging for the ball from the front, from the side or from behind using one or both legs, with excessive force or endangers the safety of an opponent is guilty of serious foul play."

It sounds to me that the referee was an excellent chap and applied the laws fairly (in this instance, we'll get onto the referee's own misdemeanors later).

The defence rests.

1 hour ago, IlsonDerby said:

 it appears Jameso also saw it 

 

Before I send the detectives in for the benefit of spreadsheet integrity, deffo Bolton then, as you thought most likely Peterborough from your post?

8 hours ago, IlsonDerby said:

Was it the Bolton or the Posh game where Elder went lunging in with both feet? (Posh I’m sure). Ref gave him a yellow but when I saw the tackle and heard the refs whistle I was adamant a red was coming. Obviously not as clear as this red for Wildsmith but it can be easy to miss those ‘on the edge’ decisions when trying to look at the balance of decisions. 

Can't recall this. Must have been wearing my rose tinted specs at the time.

Have had a look online and at the match reports for Peterborough and Bolton but can't see any reference to it so I'm leaving it off my spreadsheet!

13 hours ago, kevinhectoring said:

If you really want to get into this you need a mine of evidence over a long period.  Fans across the world suffer confirmation bias which leads to this sort of paranoia but we have a particularly acute case, probably because “the EFl are out to get us” (not that the EFL have much to do with it)

You say: “We've had two red cards overturned on appeal in the last year. “ Big deal. In the last 10 years? How many did we fail to get overturned? And how does it really compare to other clubs (horrendous memories aside)?
 

The best way to challenge this paranoid state of mind is to ask yourself: “why, oh why would refs have it in for us? “   What is your theory ? Hopefully it doesn’t involve a conspiracy 

The reason I keep the spreadsheet is for my own amusement.  And yes, probably foolishly, I tell people about it, such as Derby and non-Derby supporting friends and on this forum, in situations such as post the Bolton game, and can take and possibly enjoy the ridicule that sometimes ensues.

I would love to see a massive analysis of the whole season with a table after independently verified decisions (however that would be achieved) have been included, but I'm certainly in no position to do this! 

I accept that of course I am biased, and a Derby supporter keeping a list of key decisions that go for and against us each game, as they see it, carries no statistical weight. Still, at the end of the season when we have missed a vital league place by one point, I can look back and feel comfortable in my mind that maybe there were reasons for this other than those caused by the owner, manager, coaching staff, players, fans, EFL, the burden of history, or some other random factor that snatched certain glory from us.

The good thing about watching football is there is absolutely no requirement to be rational about it, or there to be only one view that must be taken on any subject.

'The EFL is out to get us'... Without opening that can of worms, it could be argued that the EFL were out to get us. Referees are employed indirectly by the EFL via the PGMOL, so it's not inconceivable that they may have unconscious bias in the decisions they make in order to keep the EFL happy, given the reviews of their performance and allocation of games that occur.

I am certainly not saying referees have made their mind up before a game to give certain decisions a certain way, but they are prone to bias as we all are, for a multitude of reasons. Home team bias has been documented in the giving of cards, calling of fouls and penalty decisions, and the addition of time at the end of a match.

Referees vary between themselves in the degree of home team bias, so perhaps not a complete surprise that we got key decisions given against us by the same referee when we played away at Plymouth last season and Bolton last weekend. Maybe he is more prone to home team bias, that is known to vary between referees, than other refs? Who knows? I've nothing against him and certainly wouldn't do his job. Doesn't stop me scratching my chin and wondering why decisions appeared to go against us on Saturday though.

Referees also analyse clubs and players in the lead up to a match. Perhaps not the best idea if they want to exclude bias.

Another form of bias that could be relevant to Derby is detailed in this article https://www.theguardian.com/football/2023/mar/21/inside-world-premier-league-football-referees-pgmol-howard-webb-andre-marriner-darren-england

The ref admitted in the interview that he was so concerned about not being influenced by the home team in a CL match that he almost consciously gave decisions the other way, to the detriment of the team that he said should have had at least one penalty of the four good penalty shouts. Perhaps with Derby refs are trying too hard to seem that they aren't influenced by the bigger club, that they end up being influenced against us.

Yes, the red card stat is a small sample and time period, but all I can say is it could be given as some evidence that key game changing decisions have gone against us on the field in the recent past, as we've had two red cards overturned in the last year, but no club has done the same while playing against us for many years, as far as I am aware. Ok, Bradley Johnson stayed on the field in 2018 after the 'bite' incident in the game v Stoke, that we lost anyway. However a four game ban after this perhaps evened it out, but it does show that of course key decisions can be missed in our short term favour during a game, albeit 5 years ago! I'm sure there must be other examples like this...