Investment

[hintonsboots]

43 minutes ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

I'm looking at you Michelle Mone as an example....

 

[jono]

10 minutes ago, hintonsboots said:

I remember an MSD ? Loan, how much did he borrow mate ?

I have no idea mate. I believe he paid hard cash to buy the Americans out but after that I haven’t the faintest idea of what financial “instruments” and methods were used to fund the club. I do know that we ended up with a pile of debt in the clubs name and tangible assets that were nowhere near what normal security on the lending that those debts represented would be. 

[Van der MoodHoover]

1 hour ago, jono said:

Yep. I am old school. Play well win the game, take advantage of your assets win the game  ( I don’t mind if it’s personal drive or birth, money or contacts) No problem with either of those. Apolitical, it’s life and its twists and turns. Play your hand whatever it is, you have an individual right to do that. It’s Fair enough. 
The. There are the ones that abuse a system that has grown over time and tries to balance things the right way  ? different gravy, not cricket. There’s a code in my mind. I couldn’t define it with any precision but you just know when someone is a wrong un ..and it doesn’t matter if they are a prince or a pauper .. a wrong un is a wrong un. 

It's leverage....the rise of debt.

Investors now do not invest just their own money, they use their "good name" to raise more money from the wider market to gear up their return.

Sometimes it comes out eventually that they actually don't risk any of their own wealth...look into the guys doing the teesside Freeport as an example.

 

[eddy779h34]

8 hours ago, Retro_RAM said:

I think the amount of money we spent on recruitment with little to no return in the Mel Morris era was our downfall, to name a few:

Bradley Johnson - £8.1m

Jacob Butterfield - £5.5m

Ikechi Anya - £4.7m

Florian Jozefzoon - £3.1m

Cameron Jerome - £1.7m

^ 23.1 million right there... He was running the club like I do on Football Manager and you cannot do that!

Morris wanted, what we wanted; Derby County as a Premier League team. What is inexcusable for me is putting us into administration when he still had money in the bank.

He supposeably loved Derby but whats certain he loved his bank balance more, selling Derby the right way may have cost him another £50m - £100m, however he decided to keep that money and flushing us down the drain. If he still had £500m in the bank that money to sell us the right way would've hardly left him with a pot to piss in, left with £300m in the bank my heart bleeds...

So, all in all f*** him he would've seen us dead rather than lose anymore money, a situation he put us in with poor recruitment.

I get what you say 

but who paid off Middlesborough and Wycombe, which was stopping any sale to anyone. bad advisors in business can ruin any business 

I love the fact David Clowes baled us out of a right mess. I do think Mel helped it happen . When your losing money at an alarming rate in a failing business , there's sometime no way out, but to go into administration 

It has been suggested Mel Morris lost around 200 million 

I know Derby had some terrible buyers come forward who were chancers , but the real people who actually tried to kill Derby were Middlesborough & Wycombe ,in my eyes what they did was unforgivable 

Edited September 7 by eddy779h34

[DavesaRam]

9 hours ago, hintonsboots said:

Mel had good intentions and backed the club with a crazy amount of money. For me it was poor recruitment of both players and managers along with a very poor recruitment team that was his failing. If you look at how carefully David Clowes is going about the rebuild it shows up much of Mel’s poor decision making.

What did for Morris was him trying to take the EFL on all those years ago over that tv deal which gave most of the money to the rich clubs and starved everybody else. He even planned a publicity match for his breakaway league against Leeds United. No matter how right he was to make a stand over that tv deal, taking on the EFL by himself was foolish. All they did was sit and wait for their chance, rather like Jack Charlton with his little black book. So when that accountant cum journo poked his nose into our accounting methods, which were fully legal and often used in the real world, the EFL leapt into action, aided and abetted by the curly one. Mel's last chance was to invest in Frank Lampard, and it nearly paid off, until Frank had his head turned by Chelsea and happily stabbed Mel, and Derby County in the back with what turned out to be one of the biggest knives in existence, leaving us crippled for the next season, and so it was over.  Mel had "shot his bolt", and was left to resorting to cooking the books, and there was only one outcome - the EFL made sure of that. They broke there own rules, imposed another of their own rules which didn't even exist for another 3 years, and were guilty of restriction of practice legislation by screwing us for the January transfer window, and we were down. It wasn't all Mel's fault, but how he behaved from then on is unforgiveable, and that alone is why he deservedly gets all the flack that is sent his way.

[eddy779h34]

4 minutes ago, DavesaRam said:

What did for Morris was him trying to take the EFL on all those years ago over that tv deal which gave most of the money to the rich clubs and starved everybody else. He even planned a publicity match for his breakaway league against Leeds United. No matter how right he was to make a stand over that tv deal, taking on the EFL by himself was foolish. All they did was sit and wait for their chance, rather like Jack Charlton with his little black book. So when that accountant cum journo poked his nose into our accounting methods, which were fully legal and often used in the real world, the EFL leapt into action, aided and abetted by the curly one. Mel's last chance was to invest in Frank Lampard, and it nearly paid off, until Frank had his head turned by Chelsea and happily stabbed Mel, and Derby County in the back with what turned out to be one of the biggest knives in existence, leaving us crippled for the next season, and so it was over.  Mel had "shot his bolt", and was left to resorting to cooking the books, and there was only one outcome - the EFL made sure of that. They broke there own rules, imposed another of their own rules which didn't even exist for another 3 years, and were guilty of restriction of practice legislation by screwing us for the January transfer window, and we were down. It wasn't all Mel's fault, but how he behaved from then on is unforgiveable, and that alone is why he deservedly gets all the flack that is sent his way.

and the EFL sat back and let Middlesboro  and Wycombe have their fun and did nothing to stop it 

[jono]

48 minutes ago, eddy779h34 said:

I get what you say 

but who paid off Middlesborough and Wycombe, which was stopping any sale to anyone. bad advisors in business can ruin any business 

I love the fact David Clowes baled us out of a right mess. I do think Mel helped it happen . When your losing money at an alarming rate in a failing business , there's sometime no way out, but to go into administration 

It has been suggested Mel Morris lost around 200 million 

I know Derby had some terrible buyers come forward who were chancers , but the real people who actually tried to kill Derby were Middlesborough & Wycombe ,in my eyes what they did was unforgivable 

Bottom line, I think you’re right. When you’re up your xxxx in alligators it’s hard to remember the original objective was to drain the swamp. But you can’t forget that Mel gambled ( others might call it investment) because he thought Mac could get him a bumper PL payday. Yes he lost and it cost him,  but the collateral damage to DCFC was immense, painful and enduring. 

Edited September 7 by jono

[hintonsboots]

34 minutes ago, DavesaRam said:

What did for Morris was him trying to take the EFL on all those years ago over that tv deal which gave most of the money to the rich clubs and starved everybody else. He even planned a publicity match for his breakaway league against Leeds United. No matter how right he was to make a stand over that tv deal, taking on the EFL by himself was foolish. All they did was sit and wait for their chance, rather like Jack Charlton with his little black book. So when that accountant cum journo poked his nose into our accounting methods, which were fully legal and often used in the real world, the EFL leapt into action, aided and abetted by the curly one. Mel's last chance was to invest in Frank Lampard, and it nearly paid off, until Frank had his head turned by Chelsea and happily stabbed Mel, and Derby County in the back with what turned out to be one of the biggest knives in existence, leaving us crippled for the next season, and so it was over.  Mel had "shot his bolt", and was left to resorting to cooking the books, and there was only one outcome - the EFL made sure of that. They broke there own rules, imposed another of their own rules which didn't even exist for another 3 years, and were guilty of restriction of practice legislation by screwing us for the January transfer window, and we were down. It wasn't all Mel's fault, but how he behaved from then on is unforgiveable, and that alone is why he deservedly gets all the flack that is sent his way.

I agree that Mel’s approach to forming a Premier League 2 was badly thought out, and he needed the majority of at least Championship Chairman on board to have any traction. But I can appreciate that Mel was attempting to produce a fairer distribution of money from the Premiership to the football leagues.

You explain that The Baron brought our accounting (amortisation) methods to the attention of Rick et al, but how were the EFL and Gibson/ Couhig allowed to pursue Derby allegedly outside the rule book? Was it a case of the funds not being there to challenge in the High Court ?

[jono]

41 minutes ago, eddy779h34 said:

and the EFL sat back and let Middlesboro  and Wycombe have their fun and did nothing to stop it 

Don’t get me going ! 🤣 That was 100% the worst of it. I can relate to a Mel gamble, some greed, some panic, some terrible decisions. Where no one won (except some over paid players)  all within of within all of us -  individual human failings. The EFL though ? The governing body ? The law givers ? Absented themselves from responsibility, destroyed the legitimacy of their organisation, rife with appointees and self interest, weak, cowardly, ineffective, lacking steel, ethics, integrity. Worthless shameful collection of men who were just looking after their own necks instead of the sport that gives them their very existence.

 

[eddy779h34]

8 minutes ago, hintonsboots said:

I agree that Mel’s approach to forming a Premier League 2 was badly thought out, and he needed the majority of at least Championship Chairman on board to have any traction. But I can appreciate that Mel was attempting to produce a fairer distribution of money from the Premiership to the football leagues.

You explain that The Baron brought our accounting (amortisation) methods to the attention of Rick et al, but how were the EFL and Gibson/ Couhig allowed to pursue Derby allegedly outside the rule book? Was it a case of the funds not being there to challenge in the High Court ?

Exactly right Gibson / Couhig knew they had little chance of winning ,we had no money to fight 

Nobody would ever buy a business with pending lawsuits over them ,them snakes knew it, so someone had to pay them off even if it was obvious they had little case. What the EFL did by doing nothing really sunk Derby 

So at least Mel Morris stepped up to allow the change of ownership to happen. He could of just sat back and done nothing, then people could really moan 

 

 

 

[Charlie George]

1 hour ago, eddy779h34 said:

I get what you say 

but who paid off Middlesborough and Wycombe, which was stopping any sale to anyone. bad advisors in business can ruin any business 

I love the fact David Clowes baled us out of a right mess. I do think Mel helped it happen . When your losing money at an alarming rate in a failing business , there's sometime no way out, but to go into administration 

It has been suggested Mel Morris lost around 200 million 

I know Derby had some terrible buyers come forward who were chancers , but the real people who actually tried to kill Derby were Middlesborough & Wycombe ,in my eyes what they did was unforgivable 

Mel Morris plain and simple destroyed Derby,not Gibson or Couhig. For all those who fell for the b******t Morris talked I have a great deal of pity for you. 

I hope he rots in hell !

[gfs1ram]

10 hours ago, Retro_RAM said:

Morris wanted, what we wanted; Derby County as a Premier League team. What is inexcusable for me is putting us into administration when he still had money in the bank.

He supposeably loved Derby but whats certain he loved his bank balance more, selling Derby the right way may have cost him another £50m - £100m, however he decided to keep that money and flushing us down the drain. If he still had £500m in the bank that money to sell us the right way would've hardly left him with a pot to piss in, left with £300m in the bank my heart bleeds...

 

This is my view too.  Mel lost £200m of his own money from bad advice and bad buys. That's his fault entirely but at the time, as fans, we mostly enjoyed the ride.

However what was totally unforgivable was putting the Club into Administration.

From the moment he did that not only did we incur the points penalty and certain relegation but the EFL, Boro and Wycombe had us by the short and curly's !! Not my money I admit but as you say if Mel had done 'the right thing' and spent another £50/100m on paying off the creditors etc he could have sold the Club free of debt and probably recouped the majority of that £100m from a 'clean' sale. 

Also I do believe that if Mel had had the stomach to take the EFL to court over the backdating and changing of the rules (remember we did nothing illegal) then he/we may well have won. A bit like Leicester have just done with, I see De Marco also involved. The chancer's of Boro etc would then not have jumped on the bandwagon.

[i-Ram]

6 hours ago, Day said:

9 years on, incredible that this still keeps coming up.

Saw Norwich did it last season with a hand picked selection of fans, quick Google shows it’s pretty common. They even have someone in the role as supporter engagement at the club.

Then you have the SLO over on the Bristol City forum connecting fans and club.

But you know, I’m just the scumbag that’s put 15 years into running this platform, accepted an invite that I thought you know, could be a good thing.

Here we are 9 years on though and still being held against myself and this forum. Now it was apparently a red flag of a pending failure of club ownership.

Didn’t stop the 30,000 fans singing “He’s one of our own” each week at Pride Park, nor were their many urging caution as we spent the millions. Some did. Not many.

I don’t expect everyone to like me, agree with what I say, worship me as some kind of forum god, would be nice for you know, maybe a tiny bit of respect considering the time and money I put in the early years to get this platform off the ground.

The platform you all are using right now. 

The time, the money to attend the letter SCG meetings which I subsequently removed the forum from due to the abuse received across social media.

When it comes over on to this platform, the sly digs (which have now been removed from one particular member who has spent the last few years posting), will find their membership terminated. Just can’t be arsed with it anymore. Go do that over on X/Twitter with all the other faceless anonymous accounts that have nothing better to do than chuck abuse around. 

Love you Man.

[eddy779h34]

6 minutes ago, gfs1ram said:

This is my view too.  Mel lost £200m of his own money from bad advice and bad buys. That's his fault entirely but at the time, as fans, we mostly enjoyed the ride.

However what was totally unforgivable was putting the Club into Administration.

From the moment he did that not only did we incur the points penalty and certain relegation but the EFL, Boro and Wycombe had us by the short and curly's !! Not my money I admit but as you say if Mel had done 'the right thing' and spent another £50/100m on paying off the creditors etc he could have sold the Club free of debt and probably recouped the majority of that £100m from a 'clean' sale. 

Also I do believe that if Mel had had the stomach to take the EFL to court over the backdating and changing of the rules (remember we did nothing illegal) then he/we may well have won. A bit like Leicester have just done with, I see De Marco also involved. The chancer's of Boro etc would then not have jumped on the bandwagon.

Done the right thing spent another 100 million . would you ??  You can't answer that unless its your money and you'd probably say no

Life events are a fine line , if QPR would of lost or Villa who knows where we'd be now  

[gfs1ram]

8 minutes ago, eddy779h34 said:

Done the right thing spent another 100 million . would you ??  You can't answer that unless its your money and you'd probably say no

Life events are a fine line , if QPR would of lost or Villa who knows where we'd be now  

Like I acknowledged in my comments. Mel got nothing by putting the Club in to Admin. If he had sold the Club 'clean of debt' then in my opinion he would have probably recouped the majority of that £50/100m.  Like you say though - fine lines and what if's.

[Tamworthram]

Haven’t we discussed Mel’s tenure to death already and shouldn’t we return to the original topic “investment” as in what and when future investment might look like?

 

[i-Ram]

Quite a good article regarding investment and money in football. No mention of Derby as its Premier League innit. But some parallels between Everton and the Rams:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/article/2024/sep/07/everton-premier-league-financial-revolution

[jimtastic56]

1 hour ago, Tamworthram said:

Haven’t we discussed Mel’s tenure to death already and shouldn’t we return to the original topic “investment” as in what and when future investment might look like?

 

I think we can learn a lot from the past . We have had 4 failed attempts in the play-offs plus dropping out the top six on the last day . We must be better prepared next time . Just a quick one on Mel and investment. Big mistake bringing “Our Harry” on board . Plus Lampards - “Shall I stay or shall I go”routine didn’t help . 

[Tamworthram]

29 minutes ago, jimtastic56 said:

I think we can learn a lot from the past . We have had 4 failed attempts in the play-offs plus dropping out the top six on the last day . We must be better prepared next time . Just a quick one on Mel and investment. Big mistake bringing “Our Harry” on board . Plus Lampards - “Shall I stay or shall I go”routine didn’t help . 

I agree but haven’t we learned it already rather than regurgitating once again how bad he was for putting the club into administration, how much he lost personally and how evil the chairmen of Wycombe and Boro were etc?

[RoyMac5]

1 hour ago, jimtastic56 said:

I think we can learn a lot from the past . We have had 4 failed attempts in the play-offs plus dropping out the top six on the last day . We must be better prepared next time . Just a quick one on Mel and investment. Big mistake bringing “Our Harry” on board . Plus Lampards - “Shall I stay or shall I go”routine didn’t help . 

1 hour ago, Tamworthram said:

I agree but haven’t we learned it already rather than regurgitating once again how bad he was for putting the club into administration, how much he lost personally and how evil the chairmen of Wycombe and Boro were etc?

 

The advice Mel had on how and when to spend his (at the time time) considerable investment. The financial situation he got himself and the Club into. This is the real problem, as much so as who the investor is. This point continues to be ignored, but who was advising Mel and Derby County? How the Club is set up and run is more important than who is running it. Has it changed?