Punching above our weight. What do you think would elevate us above mid table next season?

[Ghost of Clough]

On 22/05/2024 at 08:30, Rambam said:

Why punching above our weight? 
We’ll be one of the top six supported clubs, in a fine stadium, pretty fanatical support. Great history. 
We’ve had our issues, but so have other clubs. We have a wonderful owner and are on an upwards trajectory. 

Because depite having one of the biggest gate receipts in the league, we won't have a top 6 turnover (due to parachute payments), and will most likely have a midtable playing budget. We'll therefore have to "punch above our weight" if we're to achieve the ultimate aim for most Championship clubs... promotion out of the Championship.

[BramcoteRam84]

As a club taking into account our history, punching above our weight would be top 10 in the premier league, the minimum we should be is a top 8 championship side anything lower than that then we’re underachieving. Last season (22/23) finishing 7th in L1 was the joint worst in our entire history. 

However given we’re 2 years on from near oblivion, and the distribution of finances in football over the past 5-8 years especially, in our current state to be anywhere near the playoffs would be punching above our weight. 

I’ve been fortunate to see Derby as a top 10 premier league club beating some of the big boys, but have to face the possibility we’ll never get back there. To get back to the premier league alone will be tough. And to survive you need to spend £150m!! It’s bonkers.

The premier league has changed football in this country for the worse, it’s almost a super league in itself and I think unless a regulator gets hold of it there will soon be a clamour for it to become a closed shop and the concern is some foreigners or self interested clubs who know nothing about the history of football in this country will decide 1 or 2 clubs from the East Mids is enough for the top table (bit like what Derbyshire is facing in cricket) and that would be devastating. I think I’d turn my back on all football if that happened.

We couldn’t have picked a worse decade to be s***. 

Edited May 23 by BramcoteRam84

[jimtastic56]

1 hour ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

As a club taking into account our history, punching above our weight would be top 10 in the premier league, the minimum we should be is a top 8 championship side anything lower than that then we’re underachieving. Last season (22/23) finishing 7th in L1 was the joint worst in our entire history. 

However given we’re 2 years on from near oblivion, and the distribution of finances in football over the past 5-8 years especially, in our current state to be anywhere near the playoffs would be punching above our weight. 

I’ve been fortunate to see Derby as a top 10 premier league club beating some of the big boys, but have to face the possibility we’ll never get back there. To get back to the premier league alone will be tough. And to survive you need to spend £150m!! It’s bonkers.

The premier league has changed football in this country for the worse, it’s almost a super league in itself and I think unless a regulator gets hold of it there will soon be a clamour for it to become a closed shop and the concern is some foreigners or self interested clubs who know nothing about the history of football in this country will decide 1 or 2 clubs from the East Mids is enough for the top table (bit like what Derbyshire is facing in cricket) and that would be devastating. I think I’d turn my back on all football if that happened.

We couldn’t have picked a worse decade to be s***. 

The Prem are saying - That if you take away Parachute payments , the promoted teams won’t dare sign top players from all over the world .If you get up - owners have to invest in the squad first , before the gravy train can start . Burnley went up with 101 pts and invested £100 mill , only to come down . It’s high stakes gambling . I can’t see David Clowes wanting to play .

[Foreveram]

23 minutes ago, jimtastic56 said:

The Prem are saying - That if you take away Parachute payments , the promoted teams won’t dare sign top players from all over the world .If you get up - owners have to invest in the squad first , before the gravy train can start . Burnley went up with 101 pts and invested £100 mill , only to come down . It’s high stakes gambling . I can’t see David Clowes wanting to play .

Forest took out a loan with tv money as the guarantee, probably aren’t alone in doing it.

[ram59]

6 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Because depite having one of the biggest gate receipts in the league, we won't have a top 6 turnover (due to parachute payments), and will most likely have a midtable playing budget. We'll therefore have to "punch above our weight" if we're to achieve the ultimate aim for most Championship clubs... promotion out of the Championship.

Agreed, but it's not just teams with parachute payments is it, teams like Bristol and Stoke with a smaller income have owners who somehow manage to get away with having massive operating losses.

[Foreveram]

3 hours ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

As a club taking into account our history, punching above our weight would be top 10 in the premier league, the minimum we should be is a top 8 championship side anything lower than that then we’re underachieving. Last season (22/23) finishing 7th in L1 was the joint worst in our entire history. 

However given we’re 2 years on from near oblivion, and the distribution of finances in football over the past 5-8 years especially, in our current state to be anywhere near the playoffs would be punching above our weight. 

I’ve been fortunate to see Derby as a top 10 premier league club beating some of the big boys, but have to face the possibility we’ll never get back there. To get back to the premier league alone will be tough. And to survive you need to spend £150m!! It’s bonkers.

The premier league has changed football in this country for the worse, it’s almost a super league in itself and I think unless a regulator gets hold of it there will soon be a clamour for it to become a closed shop and the concern is some foreigners or self interested clubs who know nothing about the history of football in this country will decide 1 or 2 clubs from the East Mids is enough for the top table (bit like what Derbyshire is facing in cricket) and that would be devastating. I think I’d turn my back on all football if that happened.

We couldn’t have picked a worse decade to be s***. 

Lots of it might be owed to the owners but until it is turned into equity it’s still debt.

[jimtastic56]

1 hour ago, Foreveram said:

Forest took out a loan with tv money as the guarantee, probably aren’t alone in doing it.

Southampton made the headlines when they did it . But raked in £150 mill from selling players last year . Not heard of any other teams doing that .

[De22Ram]

Its just madness the money and the way the prem clubs are run! I hate the bussiness side of football! I dont see how clubs can really compete unless they go into big debts! 
 

The prem just want to turn it all into a franchise and open shops all around the world and sell merchandise for the so called "big" clubs to get even more money!

They moan theres too many games but f off for tours during the winter beak! They get rid of the fa cup replays but newcastle and tottenham do a 24 hour flight to oz a week after the season finishes to do a tour! Drives me mad 😡🤬😤

I hated the idea of a european super league when it was floated a few years ago but the more i think about it the more its growing on me! Take the franchise clubs and f off on your european greed train and let the proper clubs sort out a proper league where footballs run sustainably! 

Edited May 24 by De22Ram

[jimtastic56]

40 minutes ago, De22Ram said:

Its just madness the money and the way the prem clubs are run! I hate the bussiness side of football! I dont see how clubs can really compete unless they go into big debts! 
 

The prem just want to turn it all into a franchise and open shops all around the world and sell merchandise for the so called "big" clubs to get even more money!

They moan theres too many games but f off for tours during the winter beak! They get rid of the fa cup replays but newcastle and tottenham do a 24 hour flight to oz a week after the season finishes to do a tour! Drives me mad 😡🤬😤

I hated the idea of a european super league when it was floated a few years ago but the more i think about it the more its growing on me! Take the franchise clubs and f off on your european greed train and let the proper clubs sort out a proper league where footballs run sustainably! 

I agree with what you are saying . I would have to ask the question - without the handouts from the Prem . Would the best players in the Championship , have to go abroad to get better wages ? ( I also think good Championship players have now become just bench- warmers in the Prem)

[superfit]

19 hours ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

As a club taking into account our history, punching above our weight would be top 10 in the premier league, the minimum we should be is a top 8 championship side anything lower than that then we’re underachieving. Last season (22/23) finishing 7th in L1 was the joint worst in our entire history. 

However given we’re 2 years on from near oblivion, and the distribution of finances in football over the past 5-8 years especially, in our current state to be anywhere near the playoffs would be punching above our weight. 

I’ve been fortunate to see Derby as a top 10 premier league club beating some of the big boys, but have to face the possibility we’ll never get back there. To get back to the premier league alone will be tough. And to survive you need to spend £150m!! It’s bonkers.

The premier league has changed football in this country for the worse, it’s almost a super league in itself and I think unless a regulator gets hold of it there will soon be a clamour for it to become a closed shop and the concern is some foreigners or self interested clubs who know nothing about the history of football in this country will decide 1 or 2 clubs from the East Mids is enough for the top table (bit like what Derbyshire is facing in cricket) and that would be devastating. I think I’d turn my back on all football if that happened.

We couldn’t have picked a worse decade to be s***. 

Some good points. 
 

Thing is spending £150m to survive in the Premier League is no longer ‘bonkers’ considering the rewards. It’s loose change in the grand scheme of things. 
 

I used to argue about about where football is heading with someone on another forum some years ago. They argued football clubs are a rich man’s play thing but their not, football clubs simply reflect big business and that’s big money. 

Some interesting numbers to consider. the Man City owners have invested around £1.8b to date in the club, most of that money has been already recouped through selling shares to other investors whilst still maintaining control of the club. According to Forbes the club is worth in excess of £4b. So if the club spends £400m on defenders that don’t work so what? 
 

However these numbers pale into insignificance to the billions that have poured into Dubai in the form of foreign investments of the back of the owners links to Man City. 
 

Even clubs such as West Ham that are in size very similar to Derby County are now valued at £1b and Ipswich Town were purchased by American ORG investment fund for £40m whilst being 7th in League One in 2021. With £17m used to clear the clubs debts after Marcus Evans agreed to waive £83m in loans making the club debt free. 

In the last few months the club has received a further investment of £105m from Gamechanger 20 for a 40% stake in the club reducing ORG’s stake from 90% down to 50% valuing the club at £250m and that valuation was before the clubs promotion to the Premier League!

I can see within the next 5-10 years the Champions League expanding even further into a Super League and the Premier League reducing in numbers with Championship following suit and becoming the closed shop that you fear. 
 

So talk about about sustainability and stuff may be a romantic way of looking at things and nobody wants to go down the road we’ve been on over the last few years but without serious investment we are at best going to be lower Championship League club. If people are happy with that then that’s fair enough but that’s not for me. 
 

[jimtastic56]

37 minutes ago, superfit said:

Some good points. 
 

Thing is spending £150m to survive in the Premier League is no longer ‘bonkers’ considering the rewards. It’s loose change in the grand scheme of things. 
 

I used to argue about about where football is heading with someone on another forum some years ago. They argued football clubs are a rich man’s play thing but their not, football clubs simply reflect big business and that’s big money. 

Some interesting numbers to consider. the Man City owners have invested around £1.8b to date in the club, most of that money has been already recouped through selling shares to other investors whilst still maintaining control of the club. According to Forbes the club is worth in excess of £4b. So if the club spends £400m on defenders that don’t work so what? 
 

However these numbers pale into insignificance to the billions that have poured into Dubai in the form of foreign investments of the back of the owners links to Man City. 
 

Even clubs such as West Ham that are in size very similar to Derby County are now valued at £1b and Ipswich Town were purchased by American ORG investment fund for £40m whilst being 7th in League One in 2021. With £17m used to clear the clubs debts after Marcus Evans agreed to waive £83m in loans making the club debt free. 

In the last few months the club has received a further investment of £105m from Gamechanger 20 for a 40% stake in the club reducing ORG’s stake from 90% down to 50% valuing the club at £250m and that valuation was before the clubs promotion to the Premier League!

I can see within the next 5-10 years the Champions League expanding even further into a Super League and the Premier League reducing in numbers with Championship following suit and becoming the closed shop that you fear. 
 

So talk about about sustainability and stuff may be a romantic way of looking at things and nobody wants to go down the road we’ve been on over the last few years but without serious investment we are at best going to be lower Championship League club. If people are happy with that then that’s fair enough but that’s not for me. 
 

After this Summers Euros , next June/July we will be treated to the Club World Cup . 32 Top clubs go to the U.S.A to fight it out . I understand that lower Championship is not for you . What concerns me is that kids are saturated with images of the worlds top players and won’t give a fig about the “Bread and butter” , EFL .

[De22Ram]

46 minutes ago, jimtastic56 said:

I agree with what you are saying . I would have to ask the question - without the handouts from the Prem . Would the best players in the Championship , have to go abroad to get better wages ? ( I also think good Championship players have now become just bench- warmers in the Prem)

Yeah probably! I think the agents are a massive problem in the modern game tho! They drive up wages and transfer fees! I dont mind footballers having someone to look out for there interests but some of the cuts agents get to make a deal is crazy and its just common sense for them to engineer moves for players so they get there cuts! 
 

I know this is all pie in the sky thinking lol but in an ideal world fifa would run the world of football equally and the money would be devided around countrys and leagues evenly so you have a truley fair playing field! 
 

The premier league is bot just ruining english football, it will eventually, if it carrys on as it is, ruin european football aswell! More so than it already is!

[CBRammette]

Finding and signing that gem of a striker would help or perhaps he is already here and was out on loan. Effective Striker this year more key than ever

[RoyMac5]

10 minutes ago, jimtastic56 said:

After this Summers Euros , next June/July we will be treated to the Club World Cup . 32 Top clubs go to the U.S.A to fight it out . I understand that lower Championship is not for you . What concerns me is that kids are saturated with images of the worlds top players and won’t give a fig about the “Bread and butter” , EFL .

And that is why there always has to be a route to the top of the football pyramid. No closed shops.

[De22Ram]

49 minutes ago, superfit said:

Some good points. 
 

Thing is spending £150m to survive in the Premier League is no longer ‘bonkers’ considering the rewards. It’s loose change in the grand scheme of things. 
 

I used to argue about about where football is heading with someone on another forum some years ago. They argued football clubs are a rich man’s play thing but their not, football clubs simply reflect big business and that’s big money. 

Some interesting numbers to consider. the Man City owners have invested around £1.8b to date in the club, most of that money has been already recouped through selling shares to other investors whilst still maintaining control of the club. According to Forbes the club is worth in excess of £4b. So if the club spends £400m on defenders that don’t work so what? 
 

However these numbers pale into insignificance to the billions that have poured into Dubai in the form of foreign investments of the back of the owners links to Man City. 
 

Even clubs such as West Ham that are in size very similar to Derby County are now valued at £1b and Ipswich Town were purchased by American ORG investment fund for £40m whilst being 7th in League One in 2021. With £17m used to clear the clubs debts after Marcus Evans agreed to waive £83m in loans making the club debt free. 

In the last few months the club has received a further investment of £105m from Gamechanger 20 for a 40% stake in the club reducing ORG’s stake from 90% down to 50% valuing the club at £250m and that valuation was before the clubs promotion to the Premier League!

I can see within the next 5-10 years the Champions League expanding even further into a Super League and the Premier League reducing in numbers with Championship following suit and becoming the closed shop that you fear. 
 

So talk about about sustainability and stuff may be a romantic way of looking at things and nobody wants to go down the road we’ve been on over the last few years but without serious investment we are at best going to be lower Championship League club. If people are happy with that then that’s fair enough but that’s not for me. 
 

I think the problem with it is it will ruin competition in the game! On the pitch! Thats the "product" people want and pay for which drives the business!

Like a european super league, maybe im wrong but to me the reason Liverpool v real madrid is appealing is because it doesnt happen that often so when it does it makes for a great sporting event! If the big european clubs play each other all the time the magic goes! The "product" isnt as valuable!

Same with if man city win the prem for the next 10 years! Etc, etc! 
 

To me all this big business and big money is just short term thinking and it will burst, because the powers that be forget what makes this game great and that is the competition, the actual football! The more that gets erroded away by money and unfair playing fields eventually people wont enjoy it and stop paying for it!

[Tamworthram]

17 hours ago, Foreveram said:

Lots of it might be owed to the owners but until it is turned into equity it’s still debt.

Villa are an interesting case and I don't profess to understand it.

For the year ending May 2023 they made a staggering loss of £116m. Their accounts includes amounts owed to/by the group in both debtors (£206m) and creditors (£219m).

Their staff costs are quoted as "only" £9m which I assume can't include players wages. 🤷‍♀️

 

[Foreveram]

3 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

Villa are an interesting case and I don't profess to understand it.

For the year ending May 2023 they made a staggering loss of £116m. Their accounts includes amounts owed to/by the group in both debtors (£206m) and creditors (£219m).

Their staff costs are quoted as "only" £9m which I assume can't include players wages. 🤷‍♀️

 

It’s why, when my accountant used to explain things to me I’d just nod my head 🙄

[Eddie]

On 21/05/2024 at 16:22, RoyMac5 said:

Nothing like winning for keeping up squad morale.

It really is a shame that the same can't be said for some fans.

[RoyMac5]

7 minutes ago, Eddie said:

It really is a shame that the same can't be said for some fans.

Yeah you're a bit of a let down Eddie with your constant personal sleights at the fans. 👍

[Reggie Greenwood]

1 hour ago, superfit said:

Some good points. 
 

Thing is spending £150m to survive in the Premier League is no longer ‘bonkers’ considering the rewards. It’s loose change in the grand scheme of things. 
 

I used to argue about about where football is heading with someone on another forum some years ago. They argued football clubs are a rich man’s play thing but their not, football clubs simply reflect big business and that’s big money. 

Some interesting numbers to consider. the Man City owners have invested around £1.8b to date in the club, most of that money has been already recouped through selling shares to other investors whilst still maintaining control of the club. According to Forbes the club is worth in excess of £4b. So if the club spends £400m on defenders that don’t work so what? 
 

However these numbers pale into insignificance to the billions that have poured into Dubai in the form of foreign investments of the back of the owners links to Man City. 
 

Even clubs such as West Ham that are in size very similar to Derby County are now valued at £1b and Ipswich Town were purchased by American ORG investment fund for £40m whilst being 7th in League One in 2021. With £17m used to clear the clubs debts after Marcus Evans agreed to waive £83m in loans making the club debt free. 

In the last few months the club has received a further investment of £105m from Gamechanger 20 for a 40% stake in the club reducing ORG’s stake from 90% down to 50% valuing the club at £250m and that valuation was before the clubs promotion to the Premier League!

I can see within the next 5-10 years the Champions League expanding even further into a Super League and the Premier League reducing in numbers with Championship following suit and becoming the closed shop that you fear. 
 

So talk about about sustainability and stuff may be a romantic way of looking at things and nobody wants to go down the road we’ve been on over the last few years but without serious investment we are at best going to be lower Championship League club. If people are happy with that then that’s fair enough but that’s not for me. 
 

My WHU  supporting mate would say they are a lot bigger now having a 62k seat stadium in fact bigger than most London clubs potentially in the near future. When they played at the Boleyn yes very much a similar size.